Newsflash - Time may not exist...Boohoo!

[Legend of Zu]

One of the things that fascinate me in this world is the Concept of Time, I am not the expert neither do I have the qualification to answer philosophically the mind-boggling questions about time. Somehow I can't help but to look for articles relating to time and I came across one important article which I thought would start a good discussion amongst the SOL amateur scientists and pseudo philosophers….

 

Before I take you to the article I would request couple of things from you dear reader/debater/discusser… Tell us what you think about the article? And I hope you will express your understanding of this concept in your own way.

 

The Article Enjoy

 

Cheers

[Cara.]

William Blake said it best 250 years ago (or maybe not):

 

To see a world in a grain of sand

And a heaven in a wild flower,

Hold infinity in the palm of your hand

And eternity in an hour.

[Paragon]

^^I was never such a great believer of time but rather in dreams. Time never had any significance for me as I believed 'life' itself to be something more different than as we know it. I did not live as long as 250 in the era of Blake, but in 2004 I said about life:

 

To this question I answered: we cannot remember dreams that we have well for the basic fact that

the now-ness of life is powerfully reflective in all capacities of our mind

.

 

We truly belong in dreams but because life is a test to the future goodness for our dreams, our minds develop adoptation to life and we become very focused and determined to pass the test that is present. When that test (life) – is over, meaning when death marks the end of the test, we may shift back to sleep and dreams.

 

From:

Dreams or Life

So Mr. Legend, we belong in dreams

[Positive]

LZ,

 

 

It is encouraging that you are interested in subtle side of Life.

 

First I think the article is good one in the sense that it calls our attention to one of the most available commodity in our reality namely time. It does not though treat the subject in a adequate manner. Neither does any other paper, book or film that is available to the public that I know of.

 

For me to understand time means to understand one of the building blocks of our reality. Another puzzle in the building blocks of our reality is space. It is claimed that in fact time and space are one or interchangeable. Wonderful isn’t it ? What they are trying to say is that time exists only where there is space and vice-verse. one can not exist without the other. The question that begs answer is: what do exist beyond time/space ?

 

In scientific terms I will not vainly try to speculate about what exists beyond time/space but if we could even understand time/space and could manipulate it like the film character Q in Star trek did, as the universe and its content is infinite, we would have endless other experiences that we could neither understand nor could manipulate. In fact it seems that Life is about continuous learning and mastering! And that the real Self, or Soul as we know the real Self in the religious terminology, is traveller in a reality of infinite experiences. What I’m trying to say is that one needs to put his efforts first to know the real Self that one IS. The primal Self which is immortal and is the creation of God. This is where we should put our priority not on temporal Self or experiences which aim to satisfy the passions of the mind.

 

When one achieves self recognition the paradoxes of Life becomes easier to explore and the universe opens Itself to us. One realises that one is Soul traveller who is on a short sojourn in this reality to gain certain experiences and then has to leave behind the husk which we know as body when our day of departure comes.

 

But again to the subject: What is Time ?

 

 

The definition of time that I prefer is that: time is a measure for change. Easy yeah? Nothing but measure. The passage of time is a subjective experience and like any other subjective xperience can be known only by the subject. Time is born for example when you look in front of you, see things and move your attention from one thing to another. Or inwardly when you are experiencing emotions or thought in succession. Remember that YOU are looking outside things.

 

When there is no outside thing to feel and know time stops!!

 

The above explanation makes sense only when we believe that we are more then the body, emotions and the mind.

 

j-11

 

 

The popular saying is that dreams are bridge to the heavens. When one learns to become awakened in the dream state he/she learns that ours is also a dream state. Before that state of acievement dream is a dream and dreaming is shrouded and secrect.

 

 

That is for now

 

The Awakeber2

[xiinfaniin]

^^^Time is a mere measure for change, eh? One would think of time as a basic property of our universe, essential, and quite significant to the quality of our lives. Reducing it to one of its mechanics, namely the measure for change as good Positive asserted, is a big demotion of sort, methinks! You see, Islam teaches about time and highlights its value. It teaches that life in this world is temporary and short. That time passes very fast. If we get things right here in this world and worship Allah, as we ought to, Islam promises variety of reward programs, and all of those programs have time as a component. Eternity is what gives Jannaat the values we all desire and wish! I am being hasty here but I was taken aback by brother Positive’s comments about time as a negligible illusion!

 

Come again, brother and tell us how you can marry the significance Islam attributes to time with your claim that time is no more than an impression together (if I understood your statements correctly)!

[Legend of Zu]

^^^^ like the fact you are adding the theological side into the equation, but i fear time is explained in the quran -just a measure and nothing more.

 

I'll come back and read what positive said in the above post then i will comment I'A.

 

For the time being, Xiin will you reconcile the fact that this world is said "not to be more than a day or half a day" and your comment about Time being more than a measure?

 

Cheers

[xiinfaniin]

^^This world “is not to be more than a day or half a day”, relatively yaa L O Z! In fact that signifies time as if we are reminded that we should not labor and give all of our worth to such a cheap commodity…

 

Just like me you are being hasty it seems, if not how do you explain (if time is, as you agreed with Positive, a mere measure) that Allah swears and give his word with especial emphasis on time, or one state of time, the Asr!

 

i am in a learning mode tonight...ready to benefit yaa Legend...

[Legend of Zu]

^^^ This is getting really interesting...I'm at work now...I'll respond once I get to home. By then you may have hit the sack if that is the case then you will have something to feast upon tomorrow morning I'A.

 

Quickly tho, Allah can swear on all his creations and that doesn't signify the value of the creation i.e. Allah swears in many things in the Quran including objects.

 

I'll come back later I'A

 

Cheers

[Legend of Zu]

Originally posted by Positive:

For me to understand time means to understand one of the building blocks of our reality. Another puzzle in the building blocks of our reality is space. It is claimed that in fact time and space are one or interchangeable. Wonderful isn’t it ? What they are trying to say is that time exists only where there is space and vice-verse. one can not exist without the other. The question that begs answer is: what do exist beyond time/space ?

You would probably need to elaborate here – they are one or two separate entities? Little unclear

 

But again to the subject: What is Time ?

The definition of time that I prefer is that: time is a measure for change. Easy yeah? Nothing but measure. The passage of time is a subjective experience and like any other subjective experience can be known only by the subject. Time is born for example when you look in front of you, see things and move your attention from one thing to another. Or inwardly when you are experiencing emotions or thought in succession. Remember that YOU are looking outside things. When there is no outside thing to feel and know time stops!!

 

So according the above statement time is borne from our actions and experiences – then where does the universal measure of time come in. you would agree that actions and experiences of humans are not in sync and unlikely to be uniform or homogenous. On the other hand it defeats your assertion that the limitless of one’s soul travels.

 

The above explanation makes sense only when we believe that we are more then the body, emotions and the mind.

Quite interesting, if the Soul is not limited by time then shouldn’t the remainder be the body, mind and emotions? And how this explain or define the concept of time beats me!

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin

^^This world “is not to be more than a day or half a day”,

relatively

yaa L O Z! In fact that signifies time as if we are reminded that we should not labor and give all of our worth to such a cheap commodity…

The highlighted word killed the whole argument that time is more than a measure! Relative to what? Hereafter, you will agree then it is in terms of measurement not value even though you can argue it is metaphorical. When the Quran is comparing the two dars (now & hereafter) in value terms, this world is equated to hereafter as a child’s play or Lahw/ Li’ib

 

It will also be very interesting if we add the relationship between the Aqeedah and Time…in later discussions…can’t play all my cards at once, you see Good Xiin!

 

Cheers

[5]

What is time? time is money, money, money! and money is the root of all evil!

 

quote POSITIVE: Time is born for example when you look in front of you, see things and move your... / quote

 

i disagree. time is a definitive entity, same as energy and gravity. it has always been there (with always i mean the creation of the universe)

 

to make my point a little clearer, would you say the pi is a human invention or an independent phenomenon that is part of the universal system?

[Positive]

Originally posted by L O Z

 

You would probably need to elaborate here – they are one or two separate entities (time and space)? Little unclear.

It simple means the existence of one or lack of it causes the other to exist or not to exist. What we call time and space is like two sides of coin and called time/space- not time and space. briefly the presence of matter causes space to emerge and space causes time to surface. Intelligent sentient beings can experience time in space where matter exists in its different states.

 

So according the above statement time is borne from our actions and experiences – then where does the universal measure of time come in. you would agree that actions and experiences of humans are not in sync and unlikely to be uniform or homogenous. On the other hand it defeats your assertion that the limitless of one’s soul travels.

There is no universal time! That is why the ......... actions and experiences of humans are not in sync and unlikely to be uniform or homogenous... as you said. All times are local and not linear but rather cyclical. Yes recurring ever again and again .... like the day and night, the seasons and year. Your timepiece makes one cycle and begins the cycle again! That it is linear is something which we accept for convenience but linearity is not the real nature of time. I mean the names of the days and years and consequently our timeline is made for our convinience. I'm asserting that there is no time progression but experiences in the NOW. You are always in NOW. Not in the past and not in the future but in the present.

 

All forms of travelling are possible only where there is time/space.

 

 

Quite interesting, if the Soul is not limited by time then shouldn’t the remainder be the body, mind and emotions? And how this explain or define the concept of time beats me!

Time never beats Soul because It exists through out eternity. Time passes bye but Soul remains. Soul is who we truely are. Remeber! Body, mind and emotions are garments which cover Soul. When in the process we call death Soul leaves the body it lives on. It is only those who have not yet become aware that they are higher Self but choose to claim their identity as body who say " time beats me".

 

Xiin

 

Adeer xaggee baan taabtay ? Maxaad dareentay oo aad ka diday ? I could not be more concrete when I called time a commodity.

 

As you mentioned you may have hastily reacted to my piece and answered it without the proper reflection. Any way I see that you do disagree with my pereffered definition of time. May I ask you .......... what is your believed definition of time? Time being an abstraction is quite difficult to clearly discuss on a comprehensible way. I'm in a mood to learn brother.Just give me your side of the story and I will surely share my views with you.

 

Thanks

 

The awakener2

[xiinfaniin]

^^I tend to subscribe the definition of Time as an absolute reality, not unreal. It’s what we humans measure, and not the measure itself. Measure of time may have varying conventions and methods, but Time remains the same. Unlike you, I also believe that time has a direction--- it’s linear, and not cyclical as you, and good Legend of Zu asserted! There is a past, that period of time which so hurriedly recedes. There’s a present, the period of time in which we are living. And there will be a future, we may not live it or experience it, but our knowledge of things warrants us to admit that it’s a pending reality. I do not wish to enter a verbal controversy here with you but I find it quite interesting that your mystic inclinations are spearheading your thoughts...leaving a lingering impression of your preference of time, as an unreal, a mere elusion, cyclical and exists only in concept and in our minds, being a perfect choice to have as it regards adhering to Sufism’s common themes and teachings.

 

 

Legend Of Zu,

 

Time is what's measured adeer, and its measurement is relative to the one doing the measuring...

 

I expected more than that from you, brother. You are teasing our intelligence when you cite the relativity of Time to be sufficient enough to contradict its existence!

[5]

QUOTE XIINFANIIN: "Time is an absolute reality, not unreal"

 

or the invention of the human mind, might i add. i agree. therefore it's not subjective, because it's something completely independent of us. I believe time was created by God along with the universe. I don't believe time exists outside of our universe because there's no need for it. God does not live in time because it is His creation the same way He does not live in universe.

 

QUOTE XIINFANIIN: "Time is what's measured adeer, and its measurement is relative to the one doing the measuring..."

 

time is more than a clock measuring the rate matter traverses. time is definite equations, which show the earth's rotations and revolvements, and the distances from the moon and sun are critical factors, not just some random movements with no bearings.

for example a minute has 60 seconds. now of course we could use a different clock of 150 seconds(min) and render the minutes and hours shorter than how we do now. that can be seen as a subjective human measurement - but the period of the day is not alterable - it is constant, predating humans. this gives time a definitive reality which transcends subjective humans.

[Positive]

Xiin,

 

So anything that smells of Sufism is bad! I respect your opinion because you have right to have one. As for me Sufism as a path is butter and bread for the God seeker who have genuine need to come back to God. You need to respect this because it is my conviction and no one can move me from it.

 

 

It seems therefore that we cannot reconcile our differences in this regard. But of course we can discuss about other things like time.

 

You have not defined what time is Good Xiin! The definition you have given is too general in my opinion. Would you try it again?

 

Adn

 

Thanks for your contributions. I see that you have similar opinions as Xiin.

 

 

The Awakener2

[5]

Originally posted by Positive:

Adn

 

Thanks for your contributions. I see that you have similar opinions as Xiin.

I differ in that I do not think Sufism is bad (that'd be very silly of me). So quite the contrary.