Hicky Harmony

[-Nomadique-]

JB, believe it or not, I asked that question in good faith. I simply wanted to know your thoughts on the article.

 

You seem to have a completely different understanding about the purpose of his works. As was pointed out in the article the Qur'an is not a book of science though it does cover topics that would fall under the scope of science.

 

What writers like Harun Yahya and others do is not offer an alternative to study of these sciences as you seem to think. He doesn't suggest that reading his articles will provide a person with all they need to know about Physics, Biology or Astronomy. But rather, he demonstrates (quite reasonably) the compatibility between divinely revealled knowledge and acquired knowledge. This makes perfect sense if as a Muslim you believe the Qur'an to be a source of knowledge and the infallible word of God. It would seem to me that his field of work would exist even if the Islamic world was at the forefront of scientific research.

 

"One'd be intellectually dishonest to overlook the fact thatt Muslims regard the Quran as the only truth they'll ever need to know."

Keeping to the theme of Science, if by only truth you mean that Muslims limit their knowledge to what is written in the Qur'an, could you please provide me with an example? Because it would seem that history and a proper understanding of Islam would go against you on this one.

[Naden]

Khalaf,, instead of searching the man's heart and mind and guessing his intentions, engage his words and refute them if you will. At some stage, you will have to rise to maturity in discussion and expression and part with comfort phrases such as 'namean', 'chasing tail', and 'cats'.

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

I believe the Quran has a number of scientific verses with their accuracies only discovered recently.

Northerner, what is the goal behind matching verses about creation with ongoing scientific research that may or may not be refuted? People who believe in the Quran don't need twisting of verses to the point of breaking to believe it is from God. What if some knowledge in embryology, physiology, astronomy, physics, etc...is refuted (as it surely will be), what happens to the Quranic verse that allegedly revealed this knowledge 1400 or 2400 years before?

 

This need to constantly show that the Quran is not a hocky book, written by a long-dead Arab man, is pathological and fraudulent. Believers read the Quran receiving comfort and guidance; seldom do they need one more shaky, pseudoscientific interpretation to validate their belief.

 

A very simple example of the deception: Al-Suweidan claims that there are 12 mentions of the word 'month' in the Quran. Statistically miraculous, he claims, given what is widely known as the 12 months in a year. A 5th grader will show that there are actually 17 mentions of the word. A correct count will show no miracles at all. But that wouldn't garner support from oil-rich Arab men and institutions, would it?

 

This phenomenon of searching for scientific facts in the Quran is fraudulent. Not only because science back-up is not needed by the believer, but because it serves a few purposes including:

 

1. Trading in the beaten spirit of Muslim masses, fully aware that innovation and research are not encouraged and supported so an anaesthesizing alternative is offered.

 

2. Millions of dollars are exchanging hands in the way of funding for books, TV shows, and sites. Conferences and institutes that get a steady stream of funding to find even more miracles that will have to wait until the Western world publishes it in a journal. And then the cross-referencing and interpretation gymnastics will occur.

 

The challenge for Al-Naggar, Harun, and Al-Suweidan is very simple. Find a scientific fact from the Quran (call it a miracle for the psychological comfort of the simple Muslim). Write about it in the form of a journal article, and then submit it to peers.

[Elysian]

From a believers point of view:

 

The authenticity of the Quraan as a miracle should not depend on whether a scientific discovery re-confirms the words of the holy book or not.

 

The Quraan is my guidance, and science my tool to understand the dimensions my Creator has put me into.

 

Humbleness fills my heart, the more I understand the complexity of my reality, and it is He who has created this that I worship, regardless if it is stated in the Quraan or in a scientific journal.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Naden:

[QB]

Khalaf,

, instead of searching the man's heart and mind and guessing his intentions, engage his words and refute them if you will. At some stage, you will have to rise to maturity in discussion and expression and part with comfort phrases such as 'namean', 'chasing tail', and 'cats'.

Naden...frankly North said it for me its waste of ones time to engage with ignorance disguised as ‘enlightened’ and more those who mock your deen (your friends in arms Naden) nor are interested in hearing your viewpoints but like to hear themselves talk, that's the cat's track record Ayeeyo. However what I found more interesting with Johnny is shown in the part that I quoted, the fact that Muslim’s hold the Quran in high esteem is most bothersome....prephaps Johnny wants to convert the believers in his religion of "nothing" the here and now...chicks chicks chicks and good beer how else does one explain the man's obession? Ummm what was that Quranic Verse they desire that you believers what? Enjoy your “mature discussion” folks.

[Viking]

JB,

What are you suggesting Muslims to follow instead? Jantelagen?

 

You will not convince anyone here with your antics and you know that no one here is capable of changing your mind. So why bother?

[xiinfaniin]

JB, thanks for the welcome adeer! i think we do agree on my contention point, namely that Quran and its teachings had no hand in Muslims lack of scientific advancement. Whether few religious men mislead the masses with phantom scientific claims is beside the point really. Naden, a well-rounded nomad in many ways, seems to have fallen in the snare you sat up here in her focus on these few scholars whom she unfairly assigned to part of the blame. I don’t know you, but I do think that it would be absurd to assert few preachers, if any, stopped the advancement of science in the Muslim world. It’s clear to me that what kept Muslims underdeveloped has little to do with their attitude and creed, and everything to do with the current instability political or otherwise they find themselves in. contrary to the claims made here, Muslims are attracted to science; in US statistics show that they are among most advanced groups in terms of education. Muslim Countries that managed to unshackle themselves from the chains of the West had made a significant advance toward this subject. Malaysia, Pakistan, and Iran had substantially progressed toward establishing a technical infrastructure with enough local knowledge workers that can support it. I hope that you are reasonable enough to not expect Palestinian refugees to erect high tech facilities in Gaza and in the West Bank, or politically illegitimate Sheikhs in the Gulf to spend large sums in technology and shun from the culture of consumerism and thier limitless shopping sprees...

[Naden]

Xiinfaniin, you will see from my earlier writings in the thread (below) that I do not place any blame for the muslim world's scientific lag on these 'few scholars'. For one, I don't consider them scholars at all; the muslim world has scholars but the miracles-in-the-quran-and-sunnah people are not one of them.

 

I do put complete blame on them for misleading muslims into thinking that what they do is science. I consider the latter an opportunistic phenomenon (much like an infection in a weakened body), supported by religious establishments and governments alike. Illegitimate or not, corrupt or not, these sheikhs and their governments are in existence. Perhaps these frauds are as important as witch doctors, magic healers, and psychics in those and other societies. Nonetheless, their financial and social impact on the minds of the people cannot be dismissed easily.

Large muslim population or not, poor/underdeveloped countries consume but do not produce much original research for many reasons including lack of infrastructure, poor funding and poaching/fleeing of scientists. What's curious but not unexpected is the emergence of a class of religious men who offer an alternative to the muslim world's scientific handicap.

We’ve become nothing more than consumers of products and at the mercy of Western producers, thinkers, and tanks. Nearly seventy years of poaching thinkers of the third world in conjunction with economic meddling and instability, the muslim world has many decades if not centuries to begin contributing to the arts and sciences.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Naden:

what is the goal behind matching verses about creation with ongoing scientific research that may or may not be refuted? People who believe in the Quran don't need twisting of verses to the point of breaking to believe it is from God. What if some knowledge in embryology, physiology, astronomy, physics, etc...is refuted (as it surely will be), what happens to the Quranic verse that allegedly revealed this knowledge 1400 or 2400 years before?

 

This need to constantly show that the Quran is not a hocky book, written by a long-dead Arab man, is pathological and fraudulent. Believers read the Quran receiving comfort and guidance; seldom do they need one more shaky, pseudoscientific interpretation to validate their belief.

It's not a case of matching. It's a case of pointing out after scientific research has proved certain phenemena that there are unusually striking similarities to verses that have been revealed in the Quran many centuries ago. And we are taught that the signs of God are everywhere around us even in his holy book the Quran. The Quran is a book of guidance as well as knowledge. Its scope should not be restricted to the purely spiritual as your post seems to imply.

 

As to what will be refuted or not - most cases of 'science' in the Quran I've seen are after the fact as I've stated. And as a Muslim - I believe nothing in the Quran will ever be refuted. I thought that was a rather straight forward part of the deal when one signs up for this course offering

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Naden:

what is the goal behind matching verses about creation with ongoing scientific research that may or may not be refuted? People who believe in the Quran don't need twisting of verses to the point of breaking to believe it is from God. What if some knowledge in embryology, physiology, astronomy, physics, etc...is refuted (as it surely will be), what happens to the Quranic verse that allegedly revealed this knowledge 1400 or 2400 years before?

 

This need to constantly show that the Quran is not a hocky book, written by a long-dead Arab man, is pathological and fraudulent. Believers read the Quran receiving comfort and guidance; seldom do they need one more shaky, pseudoscientific interpretation to validate their belief.

It's not a case of matching. It's a case of pointing out after scientific research has proved certain phenemena that there are unusually striking similarities to verses that have been revealed in the Quran many centuries ago. And we are taught that the signs of God are everywhere around us even in his holy book the Quran. The Quran is a book of guidance as well as knowledge. Its scope should not be restricted to the purely spiritual as your post seems to imply.

 

As to what will be refuted or not - most cases of 'science' in the Quran I've seen are after the fact as I've stated. And as a Muslim - I believe nothing in the Quran will ever be refuted. I thought that was a rather straight forward part of the deal when one signs up for this course offering

[Johnny B]

Good Xiin, I was expecting more of you than this single claim of "the creed is innocent", whatever the reason(s) behind the scientifical lagging of the islamic world is,it can not be justified by the level of education among the few Muslims who live in the West.

 

What i can agree with you upon is, for a reason or another, home-grown science is non-existent in the muslim world, and what is scientifically available to the Pakistans and Iranians is nothing but an imported neuclear technology that is gained with the help of politically motivated non-Muslim countries and a handful local scientits,in fact, the trace of the Islamic neuclear saga goes back to a single Pakistani neuclear physician, and i think that is far from ideal, speaking of the Muslim world science, that is.

 

Neither Pakistan nor Iran has a mentionable record of other scientific contributions, and Malaysia have had Science center only since 96 which speaks volumes of its own.

 

What i do not agree with you upon however is the role of the charlatans,and their pseudoscience, on that i do agree with Naden who unlike you ( and here i'm disregarding your unsubstantiated claim of her falling into a snare of sort) valiantly gave a real account of why the Muslim world is scientifically left behind.

 

What they(the charlatans) can (at least) be blamed for is, bloster the status quo to keep the scientifically lagging Muslim world stay so, ride on the hostility for science and the scientific method among the ignorant masses,the Mullahs and the religious authoroties, encouraging only extreme religious certitude( here displayed by ThePoint) while islamizing science.

 

There is a pervailing hostility against science in the Muslim world, a hostility based on ignorance and fear of science colliding with the Quran, we all remember back in 81 when the Muslim-brotherhood called for an end to science education.

 

 

Norf and Nomadique, your questions fall under Naden's charlatan comment,and that sums up my point of view .

 

 

Viking ,

nice to see you back !

lol @jantelagen , du fick mig garva.

And i'm not here to convince you or Khalaf for that matter, i'm here expressing a point of view, i thought the dogma of the assumption [ insert some self-righteous assertion here ] belonged to the medieval.

[N.O.R.F]

Naden

 

Question: When was it 'discovered' that the earth and sky were multi-layered?

 

The educated brothers you seem only too happy to be-little are correct in that the Quran has much science only to be 'confirmed' through the research sphere.

 

The challenge for Al-Naggar, Harun, and Al-Suweidan is very simple. Find a scientific fact from the Quran (call it a miracle for the psychological comfort of the simple Muslim). Write about it in the form of a journal article, and then submit it to peers.

I'm sure they already have. But i'm also sure the 'enlightened' refuted a multi-layered earth and sky before it was 'scientifically' confirmed

 

JB

 

Norf and Nomadique, your questions fall under Naden's charlatan comment,and that sums up my point of view .

In other words you dont have the answeres to our questions and are relying on Naden to carry you. Dont worry we know who the charlatan is

[Caano Geel]

... and hindus have been meditating on notions of movement, change and uncertainty that quantum physics is only beginning to grasp now -for well over 5 millennia, so does knowing that make you wanna find the right path in hinduism? .. in effect what is the point of mixing physical science and theology/spirtuality?!

[Khalaf]

^^^^^^Well, what is science, but an endeavour of the human mind, a human perspective of the true nature of things? Is not the human mind and understanding of nature ect very limited, and dont scientific truths change continuously? This therefore means a scientific truth, or discovery of today could be seen differently tomorrow as more knowledge is obtained, thus science in the end is engineered by the human thought which will be limited to a particular era/stage. And the science which relies solely upon the human perspective ( indeed very limited, filled with contradictions, and changing all the time) is unable to provide an insight or understanding about the true nature of things nor provide solutions to the many crisis faced by human kind. Which brings us to the Holy Quran, a Miracle in itself nothing like it exists, a guidance unto mankind revealed to an unlettered man who belonged to an uneducated people in a remote part of the world far removed from the centers of civilization, science, and knowledge but nonetheless the message he recieved contains information about the true nature of things, laws to solve problems faced by man, information and guidance which neither contradicts nor conflicts with the nature of mankind or the material environment in which he dwells. Furthermore this Quran (a “medieval book” with fake tales perhaps according to the likes of JB) contains information on scientific facts which are in agreement with the recent scientific findings, how then is that possible? As the Quran challenged and remains evident till this day, no single person can produce anything like unto the Quran, it exceeds what can be produced by the finite human mind, and anyone who seeks guidance from it will reach the truth both spirtually and materially (science ect.) And last, one can not distort history nor manipulate facts as the topic starter is trying to do. The Muslims commanded by Allah in the Quran to seek Knowledge, here’s what Deniis Overbye of the NYTimes said about the Muslims and their contributions to the sciences:

 

Muslims created a society that in the Middle Ages was the scientific center of the world. The Arabic language was synonymous with learning and science for 500 hundred years, a golden age that can count among its credits the precursors to modern universities, algebra, the names of the stars and even the notion of science as an empirical inquiry.

 

"Nothing in Europe could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600," said Dr. Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma

It was the infusion of this knowledge into Western Europe, historians say, that fueled the Renaissance and the scientific revolution.

 

It's a comedy really, that even the white historians men of knowledge attest to this fact, that it was the Muslims “commanded by the Quran” that passed the foundation of science and learning which Europe now excels in, but a jahil somali qaaxoti in Sweden turned an arrogant atheist wants to convince us other wise, not happening playa not even with your fruity Queen’s English. Lies are lies my friend.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

... and hindus have been meditating on notions of movement, change and uncertainty that quantum physics is only beginning to grasp now -for well over 5 millennia, so does knowing that make you wanna find the right path in hinduism? .. in effect what is the point of mixing physical science and theology/spirtuality?!

What's in your caano Caano?

 

There is more to the right path than just that. And who said aspects of Hinduism are not interesting - they are to me after ignoring its predeliction for idols and idolatry.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

^^^^^^Well, what is science, but an endeavour of the human mind, a human perspective of the true nature of things? Is not the human mind and understanding of nature ect very limited...

 

You could not be more wrong about science. Science is about formulating hypothesis and stating in the hypothesis what sort of evidence will verify or falsify the claims of your hypothesis. And then you conduct an experiment with the intent of determining whether your hypothesis is right or wrong. Science is about truth and truth has nothing to do with your understanding or perspective. If truth (interchangeable with knowledge) was about human perspective, how would we know truth since we got literally billions of competing human perspective/understanding? We simply can't, hence why science is adamant on being ostensive.

 

 

and dont scientific truths change continuously?

 

No, I don't think so. But you can name few scientific truths that changed to persuade me otherwise.