Hicky Harmony

[-Nomadique-]

JB, I take it you didn't bother to read the article.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by -Nomadique-:

JB, I take it you didn't bother to read the article.

Meaning that i sort of have missed a great point in Mr Harun's scientific "mofo"?

 

Nomadique, Since you're down with what Mr Harun is offering as Science,mind sharing the plain and probably strong argument that you see and i soo miss?

 

Norf, I've no intention whatisoever to entertain the idea of cracking what might get you bothered.

 

Cara,I've a problem with the non-overlapping magisterias as it grants safe haven for any absurdity that can qualify as vague as devine.

I find it disturbing to see every cosmologist, physicist,biologist and chemist fading away when the rodeo is about to be drawn just to let a theologian whose magisteria soley contains an equivocal claim , namely a knowledge about a Deity and its intentions, step in.

 

Playing a catch up (is) should be an equal opportunity, no?

[Naden]

JB, I’ve read that Spain translates more books from English than the entire arab (largely muslim) world combined. Finding scientific miracles in the Quran to match on-going discoveries is a lazy, cheating student’s way of not falling behind. This lazy, cheating mentality is spread by coercion from religious charlatans with the support of governments most interested in a st*upid, controllable populace.

 

I find Islam a dominant language of discourse nowadays. A book is not plagiarized and unimaginative, it is unislamic. A bad movie is not a useless bore, it is unislamic. A new theory of the evolution of gills is not shaky or more fiction than science, it is unislamic.

 

I gather many muslims don’t like the manner in which as a group we have fallen back, especially in the past 2 or 3 centuries. We’ve become nothing more than consumers of products and at the mercy of Western producers, thinkers, and tanks. Nearly seventy years of poaching thinkers of the third world in conjunction with economic meddling and instability, the muslim world has many decades if not centuries to begin contributing to the arts and sciences.

 

In the opinion of charlatans, the answers the muslim world seeks are not with scientists but with a temple guard, preferably one on an Arab space channel. This fellow will be termed ‘sheikh’ (or a top sheikh, a supreme council sheikh, or a Dr. Sheikh) despite Islam freeing people of the shackles of high priests. This sheikh will most likely grow a large beard and even larger belly (from not walking a step and not lifting anything heavier than a cup of tea) and wear a sultanate-style turban to seal his identity as a high priest.

 

The temple guard will decide the worth of a scientist’s work in the muslim-non-muslim scale, and may even show that a matching discovery has been in the Quran all along and Zaghloul al-Naggar or this Haroun fella had to extract it. After the fact. Al-Naggar’s latest discovery is that the Quran predicted climate change. He probably doesn’t specify which of the multitudes of cyclical changes across time that the Quran documents.

 

This is not an attack on learned people but on an unnecessary dependence on appointed religious figures for largely non-religious issues.

[Khayr]

Naden said:

I find Islam a dominant language of discourse nowadays. A book is not plagiarized and unimaginative, it is unislamic. A bad movie is not a useless bore, it is unislamic. A new theory of the evolution of gills is not shaky or more fiction than science, it is unislamic.

Those items are viewed as "Unislamic" because they take the "Sacred" out of the picture and critique with a dull knife-all that is sacred.

 

Problems is that Scientism and secularity have been mass branded to the point of polluting society as a whole. You can't escape this anti-traditional worldview unless you in the Sahara.

 

You can't square Scientism with Islam. Scientism is the antithesis of Religion. It promotes functionality as self-serving i.e. Descartes "I think therefor I am".

 

I think that your frustration lays in not having being exposed to Muslim Intellectuals who are not apologetics and have penetrated through the facade of Science.

 

Try reading the works of Syed Muhammed Naquib Al-Attas, Rene Guenon's works and Seyyed Hossein Nasr's book on Knowledge and the Sacred or Science and Civilization.

 

 

In the opinion of charlatans

, the answers the muslim world seeks are not with scientists but with a temple guard, preferably one on an Arab space channel. This fellow will be termed ‘sheikh’ (or a top sheikh, a supreme council sheikh, or a Dr. Sheikh) despite Islam freeing people of the shackles of high priests. This sheikh will most likely grow a large beard and even larger belly (from not walking a step and not lifting anything heavier than a cup of tea) and wear a sultanate-style turban to seal his identity as a high priest.

Are you calling yourself a charlatan?

[Cara.]

^^Did she indicate the opinion was her own?

 

JB, it's a question of compatibility. Let the theologians debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, just as art critics debate which work of art is superior to another. If they make statements about science, then naturally they will have to submit to the scientific process, something that is often an unpleasant experience for all involved

[Johnny B]

Khayr , what is sacred ?

Is Human life sacred?, if so, then why a Diety has to order a Human messenger to fight people and take their sacred lives untill they beleive in what he says?

 

Sacred is a vague term to say the least and keeping sacred things sacred is not something religious people are good at.

 

An intresting phenomena regarding sacredness and religion is no religion considers sacred what other religions consider sacred, namely each religion sometimes respects what it considers sacred and never what others consider sacred.

 

Naden has articulately and valiantly underpinned what is wrong with the Islamic nations science-wise and why the temple guard is the salient attitude regarding science and what could be termed as pseudo-Science in the Quran.

 

Your suggestion of her reading more " Sheikh " works, is again a futile attempt of holding to your old guns , "It is all in the Quran", a notion you so clearly abandoned by claiming " one can't square science with Islam".

 

As for your under-belt question of her calling herself a charlatan, you show an unpolished sentiment,and that shows the difference in class.

 

 

Cara, how about if they claim that each and every scientific discovery has been predicted earlier in one of those books, hence nothing is new under the sun?.

Isen't that unfreindly Magisteria huge enough to de-science every science?

[N.O.R.F]

then why a Diety has to order a Human messenger to fight people and take their sacred lives untill they beleive in what he says?

Hmmm, I wonder if Naden is prepared to correct you on this,,,,,,,

[Johnny B]

^Who needs Naden's correction when we've Mr righteous Norf, who efortlessly can establish the facts that neither did this Faith has fostered violence nor a sword was raised and no single scared life was taken for the greater good of establishing this good faith on earth and all in the name of an order ( a message if you like ) from an omnicient,omnipotent and morally just Deity.?

 

Wonder if the cause justifies the means ?!

 

One can't help but correlate the reason why Muslim nations don't contribute much and the ability of individuals who labor under oppressive social milieus where one is expected (demanded)to be intellectually thankful and not question as that would degrade his "a must have highest" degree of Faith.

[N.O.R.F]

Blah blah blah blahdy blah

 

You would probably have a problem with someone who states the sky is blue!

 

Save the gibberish, you are not exactly the first nor will be the last of the ‘oooh I have a problem with Islam brigade’. Difference is some of your predecessors actually had an idea of what they were talking about. I no longer wish to waste time with ignorance disguised as ‘enlightened’. I'll leave it to Naden to pull you up on your earlier statement.

 

Tata

[Naden]

^ Why sulk? And the sky is not blue, it just looks that way .

 

Now the discussion is all over the place (JB, what's with the taking of lives? :mad: We're still talking about charlatans with big bellies. )

 

Northerner, you had stated in an earlier thread that you've never heard of Al-Naggar or read his work. Have you since then? What do you think about the scientific miracles he gleans from the Quran in his multitudes of writings?

[Johnny B]

Naden,The taking of lives was meant to shed light on Khayr's "scared" mantra where he justified the "unislamicness" of shaky theories ,umimaginative books,boring movies etc etc as sacred.

I know it is out of the scope of this thread and Norf prefers to cling on to it instead of the subject matter, but Kahyr's dazed justification has to be undressed.

 

 

As for Norf sulking off, you must have missed his earlier hint of not beeing able to get bothered, from what i could gather the brother believes that there is a science in the Quran , and its a matter of interpreting it "correctly", but for a weird reason he doesen't seem to be able to support that stance.

 

And yes,we're talking about the Science and the Islamic world.

[xiinfaniin]

^^^JB, that the Islamic world of today is quite scientifically backward is a fact. It got behind in many important areas, i.e. Economics, system of governance, and, as you noted, it made a little scientific advance, if any, in the last two centuries. I can’t in a good faith argue against that adeer as it’s a rude truth---very hard to swallow but still it’s the truth!

 

What I am well equipped to argue against however is your subtle yet poor argument that hazards because Muslims are behind in science, the fault lies in their creed! That yaa JB hardly needs undressing exercise really; it has a sole, and tangled one at that, underwear on with its skinny shame peaking out of its left corner ! You see, I don’t like stripping my ideological foes, but if you insist I can show you that Qur’an and its teachings are not to blame for Muslims lack of development. There are other, and more appealing, assignable causes for it. I thought you were well versed with the fine prints of debates and its argumentation shoots, and here you are advancing an argument,as I understood it, that even Xiin can smash it quite easily…

 

Come again adeer, and tell me if my understanding of your argument is spot on, and then I will as promised engage you in this .

[Johnny B]

Welcome back Atheer !!.

That your entrence marks the end of the reactionary posts of the less sophisticated among us is an understatement.

 

Now that the question is where the blame is to be placed,

i'm more than happy to give you the credit for beeing both bold and right regarding the creed's innocence.

I could even go further and support you by pointing out that neither christinity nor hunduism (let alone budhism (as creed )) are better equipped, needlessly to metion the glorious history of this creed regarding Science and its contribution.

 

Having said that, one can hardly escape the bizarre science in the Quran and the evolving interpretations of the verses as plain attempts of Islamizing science.

 

Though i do partially agree with the notion that there beeing other factors that'd played a decisive role in the decline of the Islamic empire and the shaping of the Islamic nations that followed .

 

One'd be intellectually dishonest to overlook the fact thatt Muslims regard the Quran as the only truth they'll ever need to know.

 

That in contrast to the negligence to bother with science and scientific institutions for the purpose of learning more about the world and how the world works, as that might apparently collide with the (belief) fact of having Gods words (the ultimate truth) already in one's hands.

 

I'm open to discuss any reason you may present as the sole or main one behind the reason why Muslims are left behind regarding science,till then the role of the big bellied charlatans and their pseudoscience will do.

 

once again welcome back Atheer.

[N.O.R.F]

Northerner, you had stated in an earlier thread that you've never heard of Al-Naggar or read his work. Have you since then? What do you think about the scientific miracles he gleans from the Quran in his multitudes of writings?

I was actually mistaken. The gentleman is a regular on Huda TV . I believe the Quran has a number of scientific verses with their accuracies only discovered recently. For example, the way in which a baby is formed in the woman's womb was only scientifically 'confirmed' (rather than discovered) some 50 years ago. It would be interesting to see if JB actually knows or has even read any of these verses. Hence why I cant be bothered with someone who doesnt know/understand the fundamentals and prefer to sulk

 

JB

 

As for Norf sulking off, you must have missed his earlier hint of not beeing able to get bothered, from what i could gather the brother believes that there is a science in the Quran , and its a matter of interpreting it "correctly", but for a weird reason he doesen't seem to be able to support that stance.

Its not about supporting that stance. Its rather easy to support. Its about highlighting your short-comings on the subject matter (again) ie you not realising how easy it is to beat your claims into submission (excuse the pun).

 

one can hardly escape the bizarre science in the Quran and the evolving interpretations of the verses as plain attempts of Islamizing science.

Give us some examples ya JB

[Khalaf]

Pardon folks for this slight interruption, but one question to Sir Johnny:

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

the fact thatt Muslims regard the Quran as the only truth they'll ever need to know.

[/QB]

And why is this important to you? Does this fact that Muslim's regard the Quran in this great light bother you that much that u invest energy, time, effort i mean most of your threads are dedicated to Islam one way or another. You want to save them from the "dark side" or somthing like that...then i can understand sxb....but hold up you believe in nothin after life........booooooooooom! baaang! noooothing! ....what gives then Johnny with your obsession?.... i expected cats in your position would be more interested or at least yapping bout chasing tail, and drinking up.....live the "good life" here and now namean Johnny Boy not worrying about the believers .

 

Do continue tho sxbyaal.