THE GREAT PRAYER EXPERIMENT

[Elysian]

JB wrote:

[...] unlike you i do the only rationally justifiable thing to do , namly fence-sitting

whatever gives your soul peace!

 

But I'm still curious, do you believe your thoughts are merely the product of chemophysical activity in your brain?

[Johnny B]

Elysian,

I do not believe, i know that during my thought process chemical and physical activities take place in my brain, it's a fact , regardless there beeing a higher Deity or not.

 

If and that is a huge IF, you're of the idea that those chemophysical activities that take place during our thought process are predestined so, still it woulden't help much a Deity that punishes human beeings for sinning, would it?

[Legend of Zu]

^^^JB, isn't it odd that while you claiming that God doesn't exist you arguing about predestination?

 

Simply put your wanton persistance to denude the illogicalness of predestination contradicts your stance on God's existence.

 

JB, would you prefer that I elaborate or my comments above have initiated some chain reaction process?

 

BTW, you can forgive me for not reading the topic from the start! [well I am lazy..eat my shorts!]

 

Cheers

[Johnny B]

Touche` ,

At last i met my Legend, you're forgiven for not reading the whole thread, just imagine yourself praying, asking God to interfer and change the status qou to your favor, voila, there you are caught red-handed attempting to denude the concept of predestination.

 

On this thread, we're not denying God's existence ( JB has somehow mellowed ), we were discussing Prayers, and inso doing collided with predestination and free-will, all that and a belief in an Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God.

[Legend of Zu]

^^^ LooL..Mellowed JB, Wonderful!

 

Changing the Status Quo...hmmm..see that appeals to my economist side...and I am almost tempted to bring in Bashwati's [Nobel prize winner] Article about changin the Status Quo..funny eh..who would have thought economics have anything to do with or at least partially can be use to understand God's planning of his creation?...well then again I may use that later when the discussion heats up.

 

But for the time being I'll discuss the concept of Predestination, Predestination itself is defined by time - what do I mean by that? predestination only exists within time, if you remove time then predestination has no meaning. Seemingly everything that is foreordianed including the foreordianation itself require Time to exist; however God's unlimited knowledge precedes [funny how someone uses time to explain something that exists outsite of time] the concept of Time then that will take us to the concept of God being Omniscient, now do you see how the whole argument about the predestination doesn't mean anything once you accept God's omnisciency?

 

Now do you accept that is the question? if no then the whole argument above is pointless!

 

PS: I am skipping alot of explanation in between - coz I assume you are able to see how the chain is connected!

 

Cheers Matey!

[Johnny B]

that appeals to my economist side... what an stingy legend, God is probably mad at you for exhausting him in your endless prayers for more of the good things in life.

 

The Constrast is between Predestination and free will , not Predestination and God's omnisciency.

 

Look at this circle:

 

A: God is Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just.

 

B: Everything that happens in Legend lifetime is predestined.

 

C: Legend makes prayers to God asking for the change of an unfavoring Status Qou .

 

D: (D-A:) God answers Legend's prayers, (D-B:) God doesen't answer Legend's prayers.

 

Scenario D-A:

Legend gets happy , thanks his God for intervening the Status Qou, Now what is the role of the predestination concept here?

 

I: The whole thing happened becouse it was predestined so , including Legend's free will to make the prayers and God's readjustement of the Status Qou.

 

II: God decided to answer the prayers of a worshipping creature, namely Legend, becouse of Legend's prayers, has Legend not made the prayers , God woulden't bother.hence legend had the free will to make or not to make prayers.

 

Senario (D-B):

Legend gets sad, yet still thanks his God for not intervening the Status Qou, again what is the role of the concept of predestination here?

 

I: The whole thing happened becouse it was predestined so , including Legend's free will to make the prayers and God's refusal to intervene the Status Qou.

 

II: God decided for a reason or another not to answer the prayers of a worshipping creature, namely Legend, has Legend not made the prayers , God woulden't bother refusing to answer.hence legend having the free will to make or not to make prayers.

 

ps.. if people accept God's omnisciency, why do they need to make prayers?

[Khayr]

^^^^

 

The Shaytan just wants Attention and to put doubt in people's heart.

 

Your questions have been answered but I don't think that you 'seek' answers but that you just want to 'preach' your lack of consciousness, your lack of awareness to the rest of us.

 

So why don't creep back to your hole....don't hurt your head on the way down.

[Elysian]

Now, Legend puts a whole other dimension to the discussion about predestination, an interesting one indeed, one I haven't thought about and need some time to comprehend... I might get back on that one to fully understand.

 

However, coming back to my question... lol JB , hey I'm the irrational person here remember, and I've made so far no attempts to rationalise the conflict between faith vs free will. I'm just curious about your standpoint as the great rational thinker of SOL. It's good to hear you know chemical processes do occur in our brain, at least we agree on something. I might be wrong, so pls correct me, but if I try to follow your logics, it means that who we are, our thoughts and actions are all derived from the chemical reactions in our brain... right, and hence we are the product of the natural laws governing everything...right? So in all of this, where does our free will play a role?

 

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that there is no such thing as free will... right? So when we pray to God, it's not that we have any choice but thats the shape of our synaptic network... blame evolution!

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Elysian:

However, coming back to my question... lol JB , hey I'm the irrational person here remember, and I've made so far no attempts to rationalise the conflict between faith vs free will.

Elysian, walalo, you're not necessarily the irrational one of us , and i absolutely see no conflict between faith and free will, One can both have the free will to have faith or the free will to not have faith.

 

Originally posted by Elysian:

I might be wrong, so pls correct me, but if I try to follow your logics, it means that who we are, our thoughts and actions are all derived from the chemical reactions in our brain... right,

Wait a jiffy abayo , the answer to that 'probably to be' sarcastic question is a BIG No, what we think is not the product of mere chemical reactions in our brains,it is the product of our thoughts.

chemical reactions are what take place during our thought processing,we decide what we want to think about,we don't decide what chemical reactions that will take place in our brains, to realize that, just hold on a second , stop reading this and think about JB's hair color, see? voila,you just did think and inso doing of course caused a chemical reaction in your brain.

 

If you meant to say that our thoughts and actions are all derived merely from the chemical reactions in our brains, hence, they,per se lack genuine meaning , so is your thought that there is a God that answeres your prayers, or even more concretely , so is your very thought that this is the case.

 

Originally posted by Elysian:

and hence we are the product of the natural laws governing everything...right? So in all of this, where does our free will play a role?

What we're is generally termed as Human beeings, and again unlike you i'd sit at the fence till i could cincerly and certainly tilt, instead of concluding as you did and call myself a product of the natural laws that govern everything. there is no knowledge known to mankind that says we're the product of those natural laws, the humble knowledge we've tells us that we're ruled by those natural laws.

 

If i may, (that is if you don't mind letting me) do the following of my own logic, we exercise free will imminently on daily bases, we're faced monemnt by moment situations where we must exercise our free will, some situations are so recurring that we call them routines, a good example would be your free will to answer or not answer this very post of mine.

 

Originally posted by Elysian:

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that there is no such thing as free will... right? So when we pray to God, it's not that we have any choice but thats the shape of our synaptic network... blame evolution!

I don't know what to make out of the above, again , some fence-sitting would of have been of great help, instead of this patently enforced conclusion of the inconclusive nature.

That we've a free will of own is unquestionable , but questioning how free is our will would make alot of sense, me thinks.

 

Perhaps the whole idea of wondering my stance and wrapping it regardingly is slightly tedious, maybe we'd do ourselves a favor if we discussed the subject matter , namely Prayers and related matters, thus , atleast we'd skip some wild assumptions and make unnecessary loss of space.

[Legend of Zu]

Sorry for responding to your post later than I would have liked, after the formalities,

 

Let me start while you cohesively trying to put some reasonable scenarios, you have made the error to mix the order of things as well as not understanding the concept of prayers in Islam (I can only speak about Islam since it is my religion and I would be lying if I try to view holistically across religions) saying that...

 

I will reiterate that you can not understand predestination without first admitting the relationship between time and predestination and knowledge [sorry I have to point out the obvious, something I have been avoiding in my past posts]…

 

Here if you remove time from the equation then you would agree the whole predestinations won’t make any sense since the act of pre-destination requires to happen before an act of free will takes place i.e. it is foreordained before you commit any act, no? In this case you would understand that GOD’s (Allah’s) omnisciency precedes time itself, simply GOD knows even before it is predestined are you with me?

 

To show it in a very simplistic way [and here I am admitting with this analogy I may agitate some folks] – at a human level, if you were to record a historical event, lets say you video taped a football match, memorised it, and later when your mates are watching you (we assume they don't kow about the game), you predict all the acts that would happen what would your mates say about it? See in my silly and simple example I am trying to demonstrate the relationship between time, predestination and knowledge!

 

Another thing I like to point out to you is, without free will, Predestination won’t make any sense contrary to the belief “predestination and free will are at odds!!”

 

How so, if there is no free will what is there to predestine, without free will any act can only happen one way. Does that make any sense?

 

In your scenarios,

 

For the time being lets not include God’s Actions in the formula [we will talk about that later]

 

Funnily enough you have answered your own question, yet you failed to see it because you are failing to establish the relationship between time and predestination. Prayers are actions, aren’t they? How could they be outside of predestination? Therefore in your scenarios, I have the free will to make the prayers just as I would make any other choice in life!

 

you Also have mentioned several times how GOD has to change the status quo to accept my prayers! Is that the right assumption here?

 

As for why people have to bother to if they accept GOD’s omnisciency, well they don’t know, do they? It’s like saying, why do I need to take any action if it is predestined!

 

 

Cheers

[Legend of Zu]

Oh One more thing, I haven't explained some parts of the concept of prayers in Islam relating to this topic i.e. what makes a prayer answered and types of answers. to do that, why don't you think of a scenario where the status quo has to changed as a result of a prayer. Then I will lay down the rules of prayers according to Islam and then see if predestination and prayers conflict!

 

You will be surprised how they all fit together.

 

Cheers

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Legend of Zu:

Let me start while you cohesively trying to put some reasonable scenarios, you have made the error to mix the order of things as well as not understanding the concept of prayers in Islam (I can only speak about Islam since it is my religion and I would be lying if I try to view holistically across religions) saying that...

Oh My Legend, and i'm not worth to be corrected?

It'd be a great honour to get corrected by my Legend, i say.

 

Originally posted by Legend of Zu:

I will reiterate that you can not understand predestination without first admitting the relationship between time and predestination and knowledge [sorry I have to point out the obvious, something I have been avoiding in my past posts]…

 

Here if you remove time from the equation then you would agree the whole predestinations won’t make any sense since the act of pre-destination requires to happen before an act of free will takes place i.e. it is foreordained before you commit any act, no? In this case you would understand that GOD’s (Allah’s) omnisciency precedes time itself, simply GOD knows even before it is predestined

are you with me?

 

To show it in a very simplistic way [and here I am admitting with this analogy I may agitate some folks] – at a human level, if you were to record a historical event, lets say you video taped a football match, memorised it, and later when your mates are watching you (we assume they don't kow about the game), you predict all the acts that would happen what would your mates say about it? See in my silly and simple example I am trying to demonstrate the relationship between time, predestination and knowledge!

My Legend, maybe you think i'm still that sharp guy i used to be , but good times and a demanding girlfreind had taken their toll on me lately, so don't spare me an explanation no matter how obvious.

 

Predestination in theological terms is the action of an omniscient and infalliable God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass,

 

i'm afraid you almost lost me in your above explanations regarding the relationshp between time , predestination and God's omnisciency, maybe my Legend wants to expound more!.

 

Originally posted by Legend of Zu:

Another thing I like to point out to you is, without free will, Predestination won’t make any sense contrary to the belief “predestination and free will are at odds!!”

 

How so, if there is no free will what is there to predestine, without free will any act can only happen one way. Does that make any sense?

Um... I don't know if we're on the same page , the above compels me to doubt, perhaps we're talking on different predestinations and free wills, My Legend, The theological fatalist argument goes like this :

 

(A) there is an omniscient,omnipotent,infalliable and morally just Deity that not only knows the future, but predestines all futures.

(B)We (human beeings) have a free will of own in the strong sense, sometimes reffered to as libertarian.

 

Now ,my argument is, to maintain both A and B we've a dilemma, to consistently accept B we'll be att odds with A.

Is that reconcileable with your above stance?

 

 

Originally posted by Legend of Zu:

you Also have mentioned several times how GOD has to change the status quo to accept my prayers! Is that the right assumption here?

 

As for why people have to bother to if they accept GOD’s omnisciency, well they don’t know, do they? It’s like saying, why do I need to take any action if it is predestined!

 

 

Cheers

My legend, in the begining of the thread i'd an Example where Alle-Ubaahne makes the simple PRAYER ,that God saves him a parking place near the Mosque, Now let us say God decides to answer Alle-Ubaahne's prayers positively,that means, God intervenes a situation that would yield everybody but Alle-Ubahne and turns it to yield Alle-Ubahne and thus answers Alle-Ubahne's prayers. What is the right assumption here?

 

As for why people bother Pray despite knowing that God is omniscient, they don't know ?

they don't know what ?

 

Originally posted by Legend of Zu:

Oh One more thing, I haven't explained some parts of the concept of prayers in Islam relating to this topic i.e. what makes a prayer answered and types of answers. to do that, why don't you think of a scenario where the status quo has to changed as a result of a prayer. Then I will lay down the rules of prayers according to Islam and then see if predestination and prayers conflict!

 

You will be surprised how they all fit together. [smile]

 

Cheers

Um... An ideal scenario where the status quo has to be (aught be) changed as a result of a prayer would be when you announced for a baby-sitter and a disguised baby-beater turns at your door, as that would endanger your child's life, you make a genuine prayer that God help me not hire a child-beater..

 

Now , its your turn to surprise me .

[Pujah]

By JB

......in the begining of the thread i'd an Example where Alle-Ubaahne makes the simple PRAYER ,that God saves him a parking place near the Mosque, Now let us say God decides to answer Alle-Ubaahne's prayers positively,that means, God intervenes a situation that would yield everybody but Alle-Ubahne and turns it to yield Alle-Ubahne and thus answers Alle-Ubahne's prayers. ....

Since allah knows everything that happened or is going to happen , AU's prayer and the answer to his prayer is preordained. and your whole issue revolves around having trust or faith if you will to higher being. As a muslim your prayer is a form of worship and whether that prayer is answered or not is really not all that important..because you pray fully knowing that it will have two outcomes and which ever way it goes... it will be in your best interest as Allah knows best.

 

Ps. I hope I made sense...this sort of applies to me now as I am home sick with the flu and I am praying to feel better. But I do that knowing even if my prayer is not answered right away...it will wash away some of my sins. So it is all the same to me and I can only say alhamdulilah

[Johnny B]

Thanks Puuja for the detailed explanations !!

I could be wrong but it seems that you're saying everything is preordained by Alah, including both our prayes and eventual answers to them.

 

if so, then how do you reconcile that with the notion that you in the coming seconds /hours/days/months..etc etc will answer to this post of mine of your OWN free will.?

 

ps.. I wish you well.

[Elysian]

Originally posted by JB

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elysian:

However, coming back to my question... lol JB , hey I'm the irrational person here remember, and I've made so far no attempts to rationalise the conflict between faith vs free will.

Elysian, walalo, you're not necessarily the irrational one of us , and i absolutely see no conflict between faith and free will, One can both have the free will to have faith or the free will to not have faith.

I meant to say fate not faith... my mistake.

 

Originally posted by JB

 

Perhaps the whole idea of wondering my stance and wrapping it regardingly is slightly tedious, maybe we'd do ourselves a favor if we discussed the subject matter , namely Prayers and related matters, thus , atleast we'd skip some wild assumptions and make unnecessary loss of space.

Lol... I’m overwhelmed by your humbleness. You are right I’m diverting from the subject, but I can’t help to wonder about certain things and I was hoping you’d help me to sort them out ... if you have some space to spare that is.

 

 

 

Originally posted by JB

 

chemical reactions are what take place during our thought processing,we decide what we want to think about,we don't decide what chemical reactions that will take place in our brains, to realize that, just hold on a second , stop reading this and think about JB's hair color, see? voila,you just did think and inso doing of course caused a chemical reaction in your brain.

Well first of all I could easily explain this in terms of cause and consequence. Without going into details... the cause would be the text I read “think about JB’s hair color”– visual input, triggering a thought process which resulted in a mental picture of JB’s hair – red curls that is So my thought did not come from nowhere, your writing caused me to think about your hair... there was no free-will involved here, only physics and chemistry.

 

 

Originally posted by JB

 

Wait a jiffy abayo , the answer to that 'probably to be' sarcastic question is a BIG No, what we think is not the product of mere chemical reactions in our brains,it is the product of our thoughts.

Honestly, JB I’m not trying to be sarcastic. It’s just that I use logics as a tool to understand this reality, but not for explaining existential questions (so calling me irrational is in place), while you come across to me as someone who relies entirely on logics to understand everything, and if not possible fence-sitting is a good resort. So when you say a big no to the statement that our thoughts are only the product of chemical reactions, I simply don’t see the argument for your conclusion... that our thoughts would arise from nothing, as an isolated event, that initially triggers the rest of the thought cascade. I’m wondering then where and of what the “original” thought was made, if chemistry is not involved?

 

 

Originally posted by JB

 

If you meant to say that our thoughts and actions are all derived merely from the chemical reactions in our brains, hence, they,per se lack genuine meaning , so is your thought that there is a God that answeres your prayers, or even more concretely , so is your very thought that this is the case.

I most certainly don’t believe it, but if I would use logic thinking isn’t this the rational conclusion?

 

 

Originally posted by JB

 

What we're is generally termed as Human beeings, and again unlike you i'd sit at the fence till i could cincerly and certainly tilt, instead of concluding as you did and call myself a product of the natural laws that govern everything. there is no knowledge known to mankind that says we're the product of those natural laws, the humble knowledge we've tells us that we're ruled by those natural laws.

I must say I’m a bit shocked to hear this from you. I thought you were a true evolutionist... you know the kind that argues we originate from a cocktail of amino acids without even blinking.

You’re starting to sound religious JB. You know there’s this swedish saying “när fan blir gammal blir han religiös”... are you getting old sxb