THE GREAT PRAYER EXPERIMENT

[Paragon]

Don't you think man is naturally dispositioned or equiped with an urge to believe (whatever that may be) hence express his reverence to a higher being through (what is called) prayer?

 

there are situations where answering one's prayers mean depriving others who are equally as good as us or maybe even slighly better than us.

JB, lol. If God can answer one's prayer then I don't see why another human should suffer for one's blessing. Look at it this way, don't think of it as zero-sum theorists think, where one's gain is another's loss. Oh no. If, say, I pray for diary cow (because I have four daughters to feed) and God giveth me a cow, don't you think the cow is one of his creations? You see the point here? Instead of depriving another, He (that is God) can create another cow in a short-while. Thus, my blessing may remains a blessing . The other chap can keep his cow too, granted I wait alittle longer!

 

How egoistic is your Prayers?

I am affraid your question is somewhat contradictory sxb. Two words stare at me when I try to answer it: 'Egoistic' and 'Prayer'. Let us contextualize these words. Now 'egoistic' my dear JB, is a word that smells of superiority and pride. The other word is 'prayer' which if we contextualize means 'to beg for something' to a higher being. It denotes a sense of humble-ness or humility which eludes the 'egoistic' individual, who is too 'superior' to beg. So no, a prayer cannot be an egoistic exercise. perhabs you should rephrase the question .

[Elysian]

Sorry Northerner, of course we should keep it in english or somali... i just got carried away to respond. Perhaps JB have the courtesy to sum up what was just said...

[Naden]

JB, a thread titled do you have a wish or something like that had me curious about how people perceive prayer in the Quran. Wish fulfillment or response to a call for belief? I think the latter much more than the former. It's clear that you don't get what you want by saying some words an x number of times.

 

Would a God that doesen't intervene and shape the fate of his creation be qualified for our prayers i wonder?

I don't know why anyone thinks that God would intervene to change a specific course of events. If an elevator cord is severed, it will plummet the full 10 floors thanks to gravity. If your sorry behind is in it, no amount of God save me will suspend the force of gravity in that 5'X5' spot in the world.

[Johnny B]

North, this is a sum up of it.

 

Originally posted by Elysian:

JB, jag vill inte förstöra ditt intressanta inlägg med hårklyveri, eftersom min intention inte var att ens försöka besvara din fråga. En diskussion om bönens betydelse kommer onekligen leda till existentiella frågor osv…. vill inte ge mig in i den diskussionen.

 

Din fråga var dock “How egoistic is your Prayers”. Även om altruistiska handlingar ter sig osjälviska är de ändå ursprungna ur egoism, och därav min fråga, vilka icke-egoistiska böner finns det? Men eftersom det inte var den frågan du förväntade dig, klassas det självklart som ”inget vettigt inlägg” – bra undanmanövrering

 

JB, since i don't want ruin your intresting subject by splitting semantic hair with you, as my intention is not to even try and answer your Question.

A discussion about PRAYERS and their meanings will undenieably lead to the existential question etc etc.. and i don't intend to partake in such a discussion.

 

Your question was however( "how egoistic is your prayers"? ), Even if altruistic ations seem un-selfish , they're basically deduced from egoism, hence my question, what actions are not based on egoism?, but since my question was somehow un-expected to you, you'd rather class it as , " un-witty input",- nice dodging there.

 

 

Now , its your turn to make it Arabic.

 

 

Paragon,

my blessing may remain a blessing, kulahaa,

wanna walk away with the dairy cow? so un-selfish, i just have to come back to that later.

 

 

Naden,

Just , read and repeat that specefic verse X times and you're safe of Demons, very intresting view point , one might say.

 

Just put me in that elevator and you can forget my prayers for you., i've more to say on this , later.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Praying is simply an act of worship from an Islamic perspective. When it comes to Allah and His powers, nothing is off the table adeer. That does not mean however answered prayers have no assignable means/causes.

 

But what I found interesting is your assertion that one’s prayer for blessing could be another man’s ruin. Where did you get that yaa JB? I pray for Jannah, forgiveness, risq waasic ah, guidance, awlaad saalax ah, gabar raaliya ah, and alike. Now educate me how these prayers could disappoint others adeer?

[Elysian]

Hmm, well I said to sum it up, not translate every word! Don’t know Arabic, but I’ll translate the rest and put it in chronological order so that my reply makes sense. And as usual you, JB, will probably have comments about my translation…

 

JB wrote:

Elysian, Babe, Altruistic are called those actions that are not egoistic or will give any direct benefit to oneself, but my point is not to emphasize Altruism but rather discuss that which is called Prayer and how helpful it is to pray.It’s a shame you refrained from a witty input, which I had hoped for, but, but.

 

Elysian wrote:

JB, since i don't want ruin your intresting subject by splitting semantic hair with you, as my intention is not to even try and answer your Question.A discussion about PRAYERS and their meanings will undenieably lead to the existential question etc etc.. and i don't intend to partake in such a discussion.

 

Your question was however( "how egoistic is your prayers"? ), Even if altruistic ations seem un-selfish , they're basically deduced from egoism, hence my question, what actions are not based on egoism?, but since my question was somehow un-expected to you, you'd rather class it as , " un-witty input",- nice dodging there.

 

By the way, who you calling ”babe”… please lets not go there!!

 

JB wrote:

Elysian,

To ruin and to ruin, it is already ruined, since I didn’t get to say “Babe”, wonder if Miss, Cutey, Lass, or perhaps even “abayo macaney” would have been good enough? just kidding with you.

 

You were right, I didn’t want to discuss Egoism vs Altruism, your are however questioning Altruism, and just as you are arguing there is after all no pure altruistic action, which in itself is open to discussion, but not of interest for the time being.

 

By the way, witty input it was, but for the reasons stated above it was … lets say irrelevant.

[N.O.R.F]

So what is going on your mind when you're sitting there, presumeably in rapture praying for almighty intervention of the status quo? Could it be so, the act of prayer itself provides the comfort as Naden hinted?

Praying for a happy/safe/prosperous/poverty free life is not asking for intervention as you don’t know what the future holds. You just want it to be what you ask in your prayers. This is done by observing a) the obligatory and b) the optional.

 

Asking for intervention in say the life of a wayward youngster (a situation) who has gotten himself into trouble can be made in optional prayers. Now believing in Allah entails believing in his ability to answer those prayers, which in turn contributes to your comfort level. One is not comfortable when not practicing the obligatory and one should not be comfortable if he thinks his optional prayers will not be answered. So yes prayer (in both A and B) results in inner comfort.

 

If some one is caught up in a falling lift (Naden’s falling lift example) then their prayers can be construed as a) calling for Allah’s help in a given situation b) making a perceived last prayer asking for forgiveness. Both can be classified in asking for intervention (in a situation).

 

Therefore, praying for intervention (in a given situation) and the comfort levels of he/she who is doing the praying requires ‘belief’ as one who believes will obviously be more comfortable after prayer.

 

Therefore, the act of prayer alone does not provide comfort ya JB. The act of prayer with the belief that your on the right track and will be looked after when on that track provides comfort for the believer. Nothing wrong with that, it’s the natural condition resulting from prayer.

 

Ps please don’t twist my above words

 

Pps Naden, God’s intervention in ‘changing’ a specific course of events is unknown to man but didn’t he already change the event? Ie causing the lift to fall rather than go to its next floor?

 

and on that note i hear the athaan for Dhuhur

[Johnny B]

Paragon

If i think man is naturally dispositioned? No, dispositioned compared to who?, who is naturally better equipped than man?, i believe we're up on that chain of food for good reason.

 

If i think man is equipped with an urge to believe in a higher and better beeing to express his reverence?

Maybe, but then insofar as nothing more than a wishful thinking, and it hasen't been solly about expressing a reverence, but in many cases asking for a direct intervention in behalf of one.

 

Originally posted by Paragon:

JB, lol. If God can answer one's prayer then I don't see why another human should suffer for one's blessing. Look at it this way, don't think of it as zero-sum theorists think, where one's gain is another's loss. Oh no. If, say, I pray for diary cow (because I have four daughters to feed) and God giveth me a cow, don't you think the cow is one of his creations? You see the point here? Instead of depriving another, He (that is God) can create another cow in a short-while. Thus, my blessing may remains a blessing

. The other chap can keep his cow too, granted I wait alittle longer!

Very intresting point of view there, but the situations i'm talking about are such that zero-sum theory is inevitable.

 

Let's say you're a Man-Utined player and Xiin is a Chelsea player, its a FA cup final, just before the first whistle, you turn your face up positioning your hands as if you were receiving something from up and start mumbling your Prayers, while Xiin is exactly doing the Same, both of you innocently pray for your team's success.

Now , unless that match ends on a draw, one of your prayes has to be denied or answered, woulden't you agree?

 

Another good example is that Both you and Ngonge this time fall in love with Rahima, as faithful as you both are you guys make prayers that she chooses you over not only NGONGE but all men on the earth, so does Ngonge too, now to answer you prayers would mean depriving Ngonge all that Rahima has to offer,and unlike your diary cow, God creating another Rahima to answer both prayers positively is not an option somaha? ( he's into VAL according to Ibtisam , but that is another ball game)

 

A better example is Naden's elevator, it better illustrates the probability of God's intervention or a lack therof.

 

If i rephrased my question as " how ultruistic is your prayers?", still i'd deal with prayers beeing personal hence ego, and nothing more than gesture of good-will concering others.

 

Elysian,

Thanks for translating the whole thing abayo, i was so tied by time yesterday.

 

Good Xiin,

Blessed are you my friend and paradise will hopefully be your place, rizq waasac ah ?hmmm, i could of imagine some people beeing more needy than you're, gabar raaliya ah ? can you imagine anyone who could be more deserving than you? ( look at me ).

All the abouve is yours, the point was, there are situations where answering one's prayers mean depriving others, hence the example of the parking place near the mosque.

 

Xiin-ow, by answering one or all your prayers God has to intervene the course of events that were favoring others somaha?.

[N.O.R.F]

JB

 

A believer will usually say ‘it was the will of Allah’ and move on. He/she may get something better later on. The loser in the FA Cup final may win the Champions League the year after. The loser in a race to a ladies heart may find someone better later on etc. It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand).

 

It all goes back to believing and understanding what that belief entails (the fundamentals). The belief that Allah is all wise and just in all decisions.

 

Now take a man who doesn’t pray (an atheist) who lost the football game or the ladies heart. What would he say or do? He doesn’t have the reassurance of a faith or any sort of guidance to fall back on. He is deprived of understanding Allah’s ways of giving and taking away (death). Is he in a better position? Or is he just a confused soul?

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Northerner:

JB

A

believer will usually say ‘it was the will of Allah’ and move on. He/she may get something better later on. The loser in the FA Cup final may win the Champions League the year after. The loser in a race to a ladies heart may find someone better later on etc. It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand).

 

North,

What are you trying to say here? ,that if two people pray to win a specific person's heart, one of them's prayers will be answered and the deprived or the 'loser' will be somehow compensated later ?,

 

its a win win situation?

[Khayr]

its a win win situation?

For GOD its a win-win situation

 

For the Patient Believer, its a win-win situation

 

because GOD is JUST and by his own Divine Nature can not commit an INJUSTICE.

 

"Prayer/Dua is the essence of Worship "

 

Why? B/c there is the communicatoin btwn MAN and GOD. That Dialogue, that recognition that MAN is ever in need of GOD.

 

JB, all your talk on here is nothing but devilish mental gymanstics aka MOREAL RELATIVISM.

i.e. won't someone's feelings get heart if they prayed to GOD for something. Won't that 'something' be denied to one person and given to another. :rolleyes:

 

Prayer fashions Man aka that constant communication btwn MAN AND GOD

[N.O.R.F]

^^Don’t mind JB, he is being his usual mischievous self only its disguised as an ‘intellectual’ debate where nothing but questions are thrown at you. Once you’ve answered them he will pose another question similar to the one before only with a twist designed to malign the religion.

 

North,

What are you trying to say here? ,that if two people pray to win a specific person's heart, one of them's prayers will be answered and the deprived or the 'loser' will be somehow compensated later ?,

 

its a win win situation?

For a believer, he/she will believe that it was the will of Allah. No one knows what is in store for them. You take the rough with the smooth but you keep believing and praying. The rich man will pray just like the poor man. The connection with Allah is a fundamental in Islam.

 

Now for one who doesn’t believe in a diety he will self worship out of arrogance rather than based on anything in the way of proof. That arrogance is displayed at every opportunity (in your case here on SOL) and smacks of ‘I know better’ or ‘no one can tell me the truth’ etc etc

[Naden]

Northerner,

 

It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand).

I hear what you're saying but you have to admit that even the staunchest of believers wonders why a child was found dead after an abduction or a grocery store clerk begging for his life is killed. There is an internal working to our world, biological and physical, that is both within and outside of our control as humans. It seems to work despite the religious leanings of a group or the devout practices of an individual. Even as a believer, I am not so sure why the weak and desperates' prayers are ignored with such dedicated regularity. And I don't mean the everyday please god, make my boss go away or I really need that 30 million lottery win .

 

Pps Naden, God’s intervention in ‘changing’ a specific course of events is unknown to man but didn’t he already change the event? Ie causing the lift to fall rather than go to its next floor?

I don't know. Is it any comfort to a believer then that God spends his days sending psycho ex-husbands or sacked employees or lazy maintenance workers to kill them in freak accidents? Sometimes, it is just human error or intention that causes things to happen. And humans are also part of a nature that has its own workings like a tsunami killing 250K people in a few minutes. It is not all mysterious. Difficult to accept or live with, but may eventually be understood and even intercepted.

 

I guess what I am thinking is that perhaps we are not as micromanaged as we believe.

 

JB,

 

All the abouve is yours, the point was, there are situations where answering one's prayers mean depriving others.........by answering one or all your prayers God has to intervene the course of events that were favoring others somaha?.

I get what you're saying. It's like me praying triple overtime for an out of reach job (which I've done in the past and will do again). Is getting it a function of divine intervention or my competitors' crummy luck? The problem with the metaphysical world of wishes and prayers is that it is not conducive to study and prediction.

 

I do think that prayer and wish granting are a small part of a much larger issue of choice versus preordained course. Muslims face difficult and often conflicting ideas of just how much of their destiny is written (and perhaps can be edited or rewritten by God through prayer) and how much is left to their devices, other people's actions and nature's workings.

 

For muslims, there awaits the difficult task of understanding the meaning of words such as ordainment,القضاء and destiny, القدر not to mention other references such as حق which points to physical realities in some instances, and أمر, instructions/orders.

 

I think that an understanding of these Quranic terms as well as a grasp of temporal arrangements are in their infancy.

[N.O.R.F]

Naden

 

You’ve managed to conjure up a whole host of issues here. But it all boils down to belief and it’s understanding.

 

I hear what you're saying but you have to admit that even the staunchest of believers wonders why a child was found dead after an abduction or a grocery store clerk begging for his life is killed.

You are correct the believer will wonder. But it’s not a wonder that is detrimental to his beliefs. He/she will wonder at the state of society, the evilness of the culprits or even think about what might have lead to the actions committed by the culprits. But somewhere towards the back of the mind he/she will say ‘it was the will of Allah’. Asking questions like why did Allah allow this to occur without sufficient understanding is understandable. But asking it with the understanding of belief in mind means one is on dangerous grounds. In such incidents is where one’s belief is tested.

 

Even as a believer, I am not so sure why the weak and desperates' prayers are ignored with such dedicated regularity. And I don't mean the everyday please god, make my boss go away or I really need that 30 million lottery win .

Calling prayers ‘ignored’ implies harshness on the part of Allah (Al Hakim) and I think we should be careful here. But why are the poor usually the one’s filling up the mosques if their prayers are no being answered? Is it because they have the right understanding of belief through the relevant sources? Is it because they recognise their life is a test and if they pass (through belief) they will be greatly rewarded?

 

EDIT

 

Sometimes, it is just human error or intention that causes things to happen. And humans are also part of a nature that has its own workings like a tsunami killing 250K people in a few minutes. It is not all mysterious. Difficult to accept or live with, but may eventually be understood and even intercepted.

 

I guess what I am thinking is that perhaps we are not as micromanaged as we believe.

The human error or intention is not independent from Allah’s will. As you are well aware Muslims believe all goings on in the heavens and the earth happen with Allah’s will as he intended and exact. Not a wind blows in the remotest of places without his doing never mind earthquakes, volcanoes and hurricanes. I’m sure you knew I would respond like this but if I was to have any doubt in Allah’s capacity as the all knowing, all hearing, then my firmness in belief would deteriorate and that is a very dangerous area to be in.

 

I do think that prayer and wish granting are a small part of a much larger issue of choice versus preordained course. Muslims face difficult and often conflicting ideas of just how much of their destiny is written (and perhaps can be edited or rewritten by God through prayer) and how much is left to their devices, other people's actions and nature's workings.

A written course is what we are in the start/middle of. We are merely going through a life long test. Our success or failure is already known to the all mighty. Our actions/deeds/sins are recorded. The balance sheet will be checked sooner or later. Therefore, the course is written and people are left to their devices to succeed or fail in that course.

 

But could share the conflicting ideas you mentioned?

 

For muslims, there awaits the difficult task of understanding the meaning of words such as ordainment,القضاء and destiny, القدر not to mention other references such as حق which points to physical realities in some instances, and أمر, instructions/orders.

 

I think that an understanding of these Quranic terms as well as a grasp of temporal arrangements are in their infancy.

Would the complete understanding of the above justify your notions?

[Johnny B]

Khayr,

We're so used to seeing you throw in that towel and yell " MOREAL RELATIVISM " in almost every topic, but this one time ,you were unusually quick with that favorite line of yours,even for your standard, woulden't you say ?

 

Khayr , let me for once try what SB gave up on , namely to bang a wit in your head by asking you to reflect on your prayers probability to be answered or ignored, rejected, left unanswered [ pick your word ]. and how answering your prayers conveys God's intervention of the course of events that would otherwise take place without you making the prayers.

 

 

North,

First:

A believer will usually say ‘it was the will of Allah’ and move on. He/she may get something better later on. The loser in the FA Cup final may win the Champions League the year after. The loser in a race to a ladies heart may find someone better later on etc. It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand).

 

[Placing "or may not " behind every "may" in your post would have been closer to the Reality repectively the Truth, woulden't you say?. ]

 

second:

 

For a believer, he/she will believe that it was the will of Allah. No one knows what is in store for them. You take the rough with the smooth but you keep believing and praying. The rich man will pray just like the poor man. The connection with Allah is a fundamental in Islam.

 

First a believer says, then a believer believes "that it was the will of allah",

 

A believer might as well stop pretending to know what it is or might be , somaha?

 

And as for the self-worship, i thought i delivered when i told you that self-worshipping is a contradiction in terms, but i don't mind delivering again.

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

The human error or intention is not independent from Allah’s will. As you are well aware Muslims believe all goings on in the heavens and the earth happen with Allah’s will as he intended and exact.

If that is the case,the elevator is falling with his will, so why bother pray?, why ask God to change this event he knowingly/willingly set on course? areen't the believers showing a bit of mistrust towards God's judgement?

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

A written course is what we are in the start/middle of. We are merely going through a life long test. Our success or failure is already known to the all mighty. Our actions/deeds/sins are recorded. The balance sheet will be checked sooner or later.

that is one of a confusing statement to make about God's intention, what is the meaning of making a test whose result you already know?

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

Therefore the course is written and people are left to their devices to succeed or fail in that course.

Hold it right there , no more confusion atheer, what happened to the will of Allah?

people are not left alone to their devices for a second, people either fail or succeed with Allah's will. somaha?