Islamic Comedy or Tragedy ?

[Ms DD]

Now now Northern..he was just trying to be charitable fellow

[NGONGE]

Johnny

 

With all due respect my friend, your topic still remains as clear as mud. It still seems to have issues within issues. But nonetheless I shall try to join in and splash about like all before me.

 

On the issue of the Danish Imam and his alleged deceit, the site you provided and the original extract you posted look to me like mere unproven accusations. Therefore I'm not prepared to condemn the man just yet. However, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, I get the impression that this person's supposed dishonesty is not really what matters to you here. It is the idea that you question, and on that my position slightly tilts to your side.

 

But, let us get away from all of that for a minute and go into the origins of it all. In the case of the Danish Imam for example (and assuming that he did tell a lie) one would presume that he would only have done so because he believes that such false additions are nothing when compared to the actual threat against Islam. It's all about the conspiracy theories, my friend. For if we all believe that the West has an agenda to undermine Islam, we really should not be bothered with the small details of misleading pictures. Again, I'm writing this on the assumption that the accusation levelled at that Imam was true (for argument’s sake as it were).

 

As you see, the problem then is one of mistrust and paranoia. But, is it really paranoia or is the West (in general, and meaning those that are not Muslim) plotting to undermine and destroy Islam?

 

My own take on this is that whilst there bound to be elements in the West that seek to destroy Islam, the charge that the West in general has that aim is false and unfounded. Still, I expect to come across many replies that will invariably contain the words Israel and Jews! To those too I would still argue that this also is impossible to prove and therefore remains a futile and irrational argument.

 

Why then do these accusations appear at every turn and why are people (many Muslim people that is) willing to accept them without question? Well, the answer to that question (in my mind at least) would be exactly the same as the answer for the questions: Why do non-virgin brides wear a white dress in their wedding day? Or why do many men strive to be macho and many women pretty?[/b] I’m hoping you got my drift there. If you can solve the problem causing the latter questions you can also solve the former.

[Fabregas]

@ Johnny B, Islam or Muslims contributed to the englightenment of the West. Muslim scholars translated the Greek and Roman Texts into latin thus sparking a new way of thinking in the West.Some would argue that this happened in spite of Islam.Nevertheless i shall attempt to point some inconsistencies with your arguments about Islam being just another diluted version of Christianity thus it will(or has already) meet the same fate as Christianity.

 

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. The achievements and the contribution that they made is well noted throughout history. Many of the medicine books the Western Scholars where referencing in the Universities where from Islamic Cordoba. Words such as "Chemistry(Al Kimiya), Alcohol(Alkol),Algebra and Lemon(leemon) have their roots in Arabic thus demonstrating some of the techniques the Muslims passed on to the West.In fact some say the word "Portugal" is from the Arabic word for Oranges, possibly named after the irrigation system the Muslims introduced to Southern Spain. These are just a few examples we can use.The ninth century, Islamic scholar Al jahiz, is said to have influenced the Europeans(eg Darwin..Lamarck) with his Book of Animals.To cut the history lesson short, there are several question/points that arise from this;namely:

 

 

If we take Islamic Spain again, the Muslims created an atmosphere of tolerance for Jews, Christians and Muslims. In fact the "golden age" of the Jewish culture was in Islamic Spain. Can we say the Christian empires treated Jews in such a way?When the Jews where being persecuted in catholic Europe, they fled to the relative safe havens of Islamic lands. Furthermore when the Catholic regained Spain, they massacred/enslaved thousands and thousands of Muslims and Jews. The Catholics started to burn all the scientific books previously being used in Islamic Spain as they deemed it heretical.The muslims generally(not always) inhertited or absorped the classical teachings rather than destroying them like the Christians. After this they(Catholics) enslaved and massacred millions of people in the Americas.The younger brother of Columbus is reported to have seen Moors(muslims) when the visited the Americas.Showing that Muslims under King Mansa Musa may have sailed to the Americas before Columbus. We see a clear contrast in the approach of the Christian and Islamic empires towards new lands they had acquired.......

 

When the West was "pacifying" Christianity as you say, it was using the works of Muslim georgraphers, scientists and historians.Can one say Christianity contributed as much to Western Civilization as the Islamic civilization?The Protestant reformation got rid of the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic sect from Western Europe.This is alluded to by Max Webber(capitalism and the protestant ethic)he says it got rid of the "intermediaries" connecting man to god present in Catholicism.Ironically, it was Muslims again(Ottomans) financially supporting the Protestants.In order to tame the Catholic Church, their arch enemies.

 

In the Islamic civilizations, it was possible to that one could be a devout muslim, and still excel in the secular sciences, trade, and many other fields.Where as in Catholicism, as Webber points out, there where many constraints and intermediaries preventing this. In terms of economics the Islamic community in the Reign of Abdul Aziz managed to eliminate poverty from society via the Zakat system. I can't find any comparison between the trade and dinar currency in the Islamic Civilization to any Christendom empire!Therefore the West did not paficy Islam, it never had the resources or the power to.Rather it was internal conflict amongst the Muslims themselves that led to their demise.This happens in any declining empire, we saw in Spain, their was several different emirs in one town fighting for power and even helping the Christians.The Westerners themselves had the Phrase:

 

"If it wasn't for the Shias(fighting the ottomans) we would have been praying like they do in Northern Africa".

 

One scholar was asked why didn't Tarik Ibn Zayid continue his Conquest from Spain to England etc..., " It was probably seen as a barbaric land with no relevance at that time" he replied.

 

Lastly, i asked you for a clear definition of Islam.Because today, Islam, does not have a system of governance, an econonimc or theological unitary system.It is simply a billion people torn with conflicts steming from; ethnic, sectarian and cultural differnces. When you say "Islam is doing that and this", you need to be more specefic. Who exactly are you referring to? Alqaeda, the muslim world in general or particular states.

 

Here are just a few quotes(from Westerners) in the twenthy century on the Islam which you say was pacified hundreds of years ago via the pacification of Christianity.

 

 

Quote;The British occupation of Palestine began in 1917. Lord Allenby, planting his sword in the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, boasted “Now end the Crusades!” In the autumn of 1917 General Sir Edmund Allenby invaded Palestine and on December 11, he and his officers entered the holy city of Jerusalem through the Jaffa Gate. Prime Minister Lloyd George regarded it as a Christmas gift, and wrote that Christendom had regained "possession of its sacred shrines."

 

Quote:French General Henri Gouraud entered Damascus in July 1920. After kicking Salahuddin's tomb, Gouraud exclaimed, "Awake Saladin, we have returned. My presence here consecrates the victory of the Cross over the Crescent."

 

Quote:How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

 

 

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

 

 

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

 

 

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

 

 

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.(Sir Winston Churchill)

[Johnny B]

Abu_Geeljire,

Thanks for the somewhat spiced history lecture, but what was your point of contention again?

did you by any chance redefine Islam ? or made it more than another Abrahamic religion.?

 

I heard the noice, but coulden't tell the direction it was coming from so to speak,attempting to point some inconsistencies in one thing , finding it is another,and the term Mohammedanism ( a term i avoided to use)actually suffices to convey my whole point.

 

Maybe , you'd the term 'pacified' to turn your stomach , but, even in that case, you haven't picked the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

Ngonge,

i'm still chewing your paralel inquiry , and time is not a freind , but will come back with why a mud is not my clarity.

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

[QB] Abu_Geeljire,

Thanks for the somewhat spiced history lecture,

 

Yes it is spiced up or a "conspiracy theory" when it comes to Islam or Muslims.But when you drop eurocentric opinions such "Islam was pacified....." with no evidence, you want us to believe them as "knowledge" eh?Maybe the world did not begin when christianity was pacified?

 

 

but what was your point of contention again?

did you by any chance redefine Islam ?

 

I asked you to define what you mean Islam in todays world, is it the Quran,Hadith, States, Alqaeda, Sunni insurgents or the entire Muslim world.Who exactly is trying to define itself for a conflict with the "superior" West?

 

or made it more than another Abrahamic religion.?

 

Simple really, can any Christian or Judaic empire compare to the Islamic Civilization?Did they create systems where minorities where tolerated and the Sciences flourished before the rise of the secular West?Simply stating Islam is an Abrahamic religion like Christianity and Judaism is hardly any evidence for your assertations!

[Johnny B]

Abu_geeljiore ,

I'd the decency to note the litigiousnes in your post, but can't cede legitimacy to such grotesque piece of reasoning.

 

Originally posted by Abu_Geeljire:

Simple really, can any Christian or Judaic empire compare to the Islamic Civilization?Did they create systems where minorities where tolerated and the Sciences flourished before the rise of the secular West?Simply stating Islam is an Abrahamic religion like Christianity and Judaism is hardly any evidence for your assertations!

I'm afraid it does.Since Islam adds little or nothing to the Abrahamic theology, it remains Mohammed's version of that dynasty, nothing more ,nothing less.

 

Worse was the surfacing of the underlying current of type'The religion of my Car Mechanicer is crucial to my car'.

 

That, sir Newton was Christian or 'Elgebra' was a Muslim etc undermines both your supposedly point of contention and the prevalant and seductive dictum that " Islam is the best ".

 

Now, let's concentrate on the thread's subject matter and see how you can contribute.

 

Ngonge,

Regarding the Issue in the issue, i've admitted the effect of the 'article's un-common isses , but the point of the " Islamic activists" including our SOL having common denominator is what i'm alluding to.

 

And you're right on the bucks as i question the idea, not that particular activist.

 

Now, you said the backbone of it lies in the " Conspiracy theory "and that much is understandable. but the 'paranoia 'in my view does a disservice to the supposedly efficacious theological medecine. becouse the more paranoid the more active one has to be , hence more human action and less theology.

 

Again, you'll have to help me understand the unforgiveable gullibility and reseptiveness, as i coulden't answer Why do non-virgin brides wear a white dress in their wedding day..

 

Ans lastly, let us take on a point that was made in the 'article', namely the physical threat, the right to physically hurt if you like, a phenomenon that is associated with Islam more often than not.

how and when such an action is justifieable?

[NGONGE]

Heh. I hoped the question about non-virgin brides wearing white was obvious. It's to do with cultural norms and trends than real marriage ceremonies. In the same way that most of what is purported to be Islamic these days is culturally motivated rather than Islamic.

 

I think I've written about this problem on this forum on more than one occasion. Somehow, in our Islamic society there is a readiness to believe in all sorts of myths and conspiracy theories. There is a desire to always be in the defensive. Nay there is an actual urge. You get all these people who are hell bent on finding faults, insults and taking offence to a number of inconsequential events, and it's always in the name of Islam!

 

One can go back all the way to Salman Rushdie's 'novel' to see the indignation, the anger and rage. But, really, what did getting angry about that book (all that time ago) achieve other than mislead most Muslims and turn Mr Rushdie into a millionaire? Was it beneficial to the Muslim world? Did it deter others from writing similar books? Did it even make Rushdie repent? The answer to all these would be no.

 

Yet, many would tell you that the results are not important. We can't stay silent while every other nonentity dares to insult our religion and all our scared symbols, they say. We HAVE to be seen to be doing something, they scream. That something almost always turns out to take a violent form!

 

In my eyes, the blame for such actions is to be fully shouldered by the entire multitude of Mullahs, thinkers and speakers in the Muslim world. They do have an amazing obsession with conspiracy theories and almost always wag an accusing finger in one direction or another, but never at themselves.

 

Another problem is the sporadic knowledge of the faith many of the angry followers have. Many of us that have some semblance of basic knowledge assume that everyone else has similar learning to us. We cannot conceive that a fellow Muslim that was BORN into this faith is unlikely to know such (we think) simple basics! Yet, there are millions of Muslims that whilst able to pray, fast and recite verses from the holy book, still do not understand the essence of their faith (and these are the good ones, imagine ones that don't even understand the simple rituals).

 

 

It's all mechanical and there is a whole lot of regurgitation taking place. In other words, many would show you how proficient they are in understanding the fundamentals of the faith (Caqeeda, etc) but when it comes to the basic common sense that is also part of the belief, most are at sea! This is why you hear stories about individual madmen going round killing non-believers for insulting Islam! Surely, the fact that one is a non-believer in the first place renders any insult they dish out pointless and futile! After all, that person(s) had committed the biggest sin by not believing in the creator, never mind the simple issue of insulting his (the creator's) creations (i.e. Islam, the prophet or his companions). But, of course, in the mind of our randomly learned fellow Muslims the killing of such non-believers is a form of Jihad!

 

Having said that, this is not at all the sum total of what goes on in Muslim minds (or at least I don't think it is). There are many scholars, thinkers and knowledgeable Muslims that try to look for other solutions for our predicaments. However, like with any groups, communities and societies, the voices of anger, revenge and those calling for action are always louder and more attractive to the masses than the voices of calm, contemplation and patience.

 

These problems will carry on taking place and occurring for a long time to come. Unless, we find a way to get rid of our reactionary attitudes and our blind belief in conspiracy theories!

[Fabregas]

So we have discovered that Islam is "an abrahamic religion", let us leave that issue aside for know.

 

 

Quote:That Islam is reconcileable with the West is a well entertained mindset in my circles , but it remains to be seen if West is reconcileable with Islam, i'm an optimist as i consider myself a living proof for such a Reality.

 

Johnny B, what did you mean by the above, please elaborate?

 

Secondly, what about the discourse of the "Islamic invasion", is this considered a legitimate threat or a "conspiracy theory"?Am referring to the works of Zionist scholars such as "Londonistan" and "Eurabia"?

[Johnny B]

Thanks Ngonge, that was an informative piece.

Now that we know who shoulders that blame , could it fair to ask , where do the entire multitude of Mullahs turn to nurture their ill-will?

and lastly where is the alternative voice?

 

It seems as if thoses with the sporadic knowledge has no alternative but munch on what is beeing served.

 

 

Abu-Geeljire,

You seem to be intrested in everything but the thread's subject matter , how come?

 

Regarding the " Islamic invation" , we'll take one thing at a time.

[Ms DD]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Thanks Ngonge, that was an informative piece.

Now that we know who shoulders that blame , could it fair to ask , where do the entire multitude of Mullahs turn to nurture their ill-will?

and lastly where is the alternative voice?

Hello Johnny

 

I normally find that discussing Islam with you to be futile exercise however this time I will bite

 

Correct me if i am wrong but I think you believe that these mullahs turn to Quran/Hadiths to nurture their ill-will and that discarding all religions is the answer. Am I off the mark here?

 

I personally think the answer lies with education. Educate the mullahs and establish a body of counsel which should appoints the mullahs based on their education and their activities should be monitored in line with Islamic teachings.

[Fabregas]

Johnny b, your thread contains several issues. You even managed to get in Nuradin Farax, even though the vast majority of people on this forum, said he had done nothing wrong!But that's "another" debate for another day!

 

If you go back and read what you wrote yourself.You will find that you have mentioned "conspiracy" theories several times!I am simply asking you about the other side of the fence, is the discourse of the "islamic invasion" more legitimate or understandable than the paranoia of the "Muslims/Mullahs"?

 

Didn't you say "Islam was redifining itself for a conflict with the superior west"?

 

If you don't think this has nothing to with the subject at hand, simply ignore this comment.

 

And what "Islamic invitation" are you referring to?(if that comment was direct at me)

[Johnny B]

Cambaro,

As you've noticed ,my knowledge of Islam equals nothing and i've nothing against Islam in particular, hence, my appreciation of your(any knowledgeable person's) inputs.

 

As for where the Mullahs turn to nutrute their ill-will,i don't exactly know, but i don't think that they solly turn to the 'Quran/Hadith'( though there are more fake 'Hadiths' than changed 'Quranic ' verses), as that would conevy the unrealistic claim of " Quran/Hadith are source of hate ".

 

You said , you think the answer lies with education, and it sounds reasonable, but how do you educate the 'educated'?,i mean , who will educate the Mullahs?.

Aren't the Mullahs those who are with that little extra knowledge of Islam? if not, who is?

 

Are you possibilly suggesting Islam 'ala Vatican' style, where Mullahs are schooled,trained and appointed, where Islamic Fatwas are fired in consensus , unlike today's 'abra kdabra'? .

 

i'm sure you'll help me disregard this tiny hint of it beeing "another Camabro frivolousness " .

 

 

Abu_Geeljire,

The Issue of Nuradin Farah has to do with my thread as it's a paralell to 'Islamic acitvism', as for the 'conspiracy theory', it is a fact that i've encountred in this very Fora , in fact it is more or less the prevalant Muslim mode if u like,and since you're not denying but instead choosing to highlight what you perceive to be its equivalent in the West , namely 'Islamic Invasion', i do understand you, though i don't agree with you, becouse i'm of the idea that the 'Islamic inavasion' mantra is more of a political nature than theological hatred, hence my suggestion to takle one thing at a time.

 

As for the redefination of Islam , we've already covered that and due to misconception,i/you (we)'ve decided to not address that issue for now.

 

What seems to be an "invitation" is nothing but a typo from my part, it was meant to say 'Islamic invasion'.

 

Now that your questions are answered , i think you'll contribute and help us analyse the real reasons behind the obsession with the 'Conspiracy theory' and willigness to both gullibly accept and act sometimes violently on whatever said and done in the name of 'Islamic activism'.

[Ms DD]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Cambaro,

As you've noticed ,my knowledge of Islam equals nothing and i've nothing against Islam in particular, hence, my appreciation of your(any knowledgeable person's) inputs.

Hi johnny

 

My Islamic knowledge is also limited however I am glad that you have acknowledged that Islamic education isnt your strong forte and that you havent got anything against is. Can i suggest that maybe you should start learning about it before discussing it? Just friendly advice bro.

 

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

You said , you think the answer lies with education, and it sounds reasonable, but how do you educate the 'educated'?,i mean , who will educate the Mullahs?.

Aren't the Mullahs those who are with that little extra knowledge of Islam? if not, who is?

The problem is that we have pseudo mullahs dictating the populace, mostly illetirate uneducated villagers. Remember the mullah who gave the fatwa where a father-in-law raped his son's wife and the mullah suggested that the son divorces the wife and the wife marries the rapist. The pseudo-totalitarian rule of a small number of unelected mullahs should be challenged and subject to accountibility.

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Are you possibilly suggesting Islam 'ala Vatican' style, where Mullahs are schooled,trained and appointed, where Islamic Fatwas are fired in consensus , unlike today's 'abra kdabra'? .

This sounds great, except there are numerous sects. Any other suggestions? I really dont know

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

i'm sure you'll help me disregard this tiny hint of it beeing "another Camabro frivolousness " .

 

Thanks for the compliment J. Some people just love my "frivolousness " and look forward to their daily dose

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Cambaro,

As you've noticed ,my knowledge of Islam equals nothing and i've nothing against Islam in particular, hence, my appreciation of your(any knowledgeable person's) inputs.

Yet, you go on to mock the Scholars of Islam and the whole idea of Islamic Scholarship on this thread.

 

The lack of congruency in your statement and actions on SOL is unbelievable.

[Alle-ubaahne]

This Johnny P should is crazier than Cara, I say!

 

He is talking without knowing anything about what he is talking about!

 

Oh, Johnny, May you die several times without Karfan, aamiin!