Siyad Barre, the Ataturk of Somalia?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by me:

The point- on the issue of the million examples. It was a reply to Vikings comment on the adoption of Western culture by Somalis, There are million examples of cultural traits there where originally associated with Arabs that are now being introduced or are fully accepted as Somali customs. You don’t have to look far for it and if you can not see it then it means that you have accepted those customs as your own and no longer see them as ‘alien’.

I don't understand this mindset at all. Throughout history various cultures have adopted both good and bad from other cultures. That is natural as long as it is by choice. If people have chosen to accept 'Arabic customs' as you put it - then this their choice - why decry that? Do you see the Italians lamenting the 'Chinese-ness' of pasta and noodles? No - they own it now - it's become part of Italian culture.

 

PS - I asked you for specific examples which you have failed to provide

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar:

quote:So he took a page out of Attaturk's book and decided to uproot Islam from the lives of the people: Ban the hijab. Discourage/ban prayer. Introduce a cult system where the dictator is subtly worshipped as a demigod. Riducle religion as an archaic relic of the Middle Ages.

And when did Max'ed Siyaad Barre 'ban' the xijaab? When did he 'discourage' or outright 'ban' the salaada? And 'ridicule the religion,' how?

I am also astounded someone can make an accusation of that magnitude and expect to get away with it.

 

Kashafa-

 

From your earlier posts, one can almost ascertain you are a young colleg-age man. You have already testified that your information is from the proverbial Somali mouth. What are your other sources?

[me]

The Point- are we as a people not worthy of having our own culture that’s unique to us or should we be happy with taking other peoples customs while ignoring our traditions?

 

What makes us different, what makes a Somali a Somali? Is it not our culture, language and history?

 

If we choose to ignore these 3 and loose them are we still Somalis?

 

What makes an Arab an Arab? An Englishman English? Or a Somali Somali?

 

Yes cultures change or evolve, but they evolve from a certain base. Uprooting the elements on which our culture is based or abandoning them all together, will only create more problems for us in the form of identity crisis. Like Bob Marley said, "you need to know where your coming from to know where you going"

 

Picking and mixing cultural traits that you will think will be beneficial to you is one thing (pasta-Chinese), but abandoning the culture al together is another thing. Do you see the Italians wearing Chinese clothes? Or using a Chinese word in every sentence and not even recognizing that that word has foreign roots.

 

We Somalis as a race are an old race and we have a civilization of our own, instead of denying our roots and history, we should investigate and take pride in what is ours. We should take pride in Axmed Guray, just like English make us sick with Lord Nelson, we should take pride in Sayd Muhamed Abdulah Xasan, just like the Dutch make us crazy with Willem of Orange, and we should take pride in Xawo Tako for her bravery. We should take pride in our literature instead of proving our literacy with how many western or Arab books we have read. These people are promoting their cultures, why shouldn’t we promote ours? Why don’t we sell them Ismaciil Mire instead of them selling us Shakespeare?

 

Not seeing this cultural imperialism that is coming from all sides or ignoring it is foolish. One might wonder what he or she can do. Well for starters learn the Somali language and if you do speak Somali then try to speak pure Somali language without any foreign words. After that go and explore the Somali literature.

[Viking]

me,

Originally posted by me:

The problem in Somalia is that there are two cultural imperial forces competing for us, namely the Arab and the Western. In my opinion they are equally dangerous since they both have one mission and that mission is the destruction of the Somali culture and replacing it with theirs. Who ever wins, it will be us Somalis who will loose, unless we do something about this.

This is where you have gone wrong! With western influence, not only do you lose your culture but your religion too. Hypothetically, let's say we all adopt Arabic as our language and wear Arabic dresscode, what have we lost that is of great value to us both in this life and the hereafter (keeping mind that a Muslim should always think of both this world and the hereafter)? But if you follow the western culture, it is not only about McDonald's and Holywood movies; with it comes secularism, rejecting and mocking Allah and leading a non-Islamic lifestyle. As a Muslim, your first priority should ALWAYS be your faith, culture won't help you in the hereafter, your faith in Allah will.

 

 

Originally posted by me:

Opting for Arab culture or regarding Arab culture as benign in comparison with the Western culture would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. In my opinion the Arab culture is more dangerous to us as Somalis then the western culture. This is mainly because this culture is being pushed down our throats with the excuse that it is Islamic. The western culture is alien and incompatible with our ‘dhaqan’ and it can be dealt with a relative ease compared with Arab culture which is more sensitive.

That is not really the case. Anyone who has a little knowledge of Islam and can read and write is capable of telling Islam from Arab culture. This is especially the case if you can speak Arabic since you can read the daliils staight from the source. Western culture is not as benign as you make it out to be; just on these boards, we have Somalis who have westernised, secularised and even gone as far as becoming agnostics after coming in contact with western culture either as children or as young adults. There is nothing benign about this.

 

Originally posted by me:

We as Somalis should protect our culture and language, because the day we loose our SOMALI culture and language is the day that we as a nation have lost our identity. Today you hear some people say that we are ‘Arabs’ while others are saying that we are ‘Africans’ this schizophrenia come from the identity crisis that we are facing today. We have to look deeper in ourselves. It is time for reflection. Who are we and what is our place in the world? I as me

would rather be a first class Somali then a second class Arab or a cheap imitation of a Westerner.

Look around this forum and others alike, a group of young and adult Somalis interacting on a daily basis in English. We have already lost the battle to the western culture. There are at least ten times more Somalis that speak good English than those who speak good Arabic. So if you are concerned about Somali culture your efforts should be primarily aimed at western influences.

 

The schizophrenia doesn't stem from anything other than lack of written pre-Islamic history. We have an oral tradition and with this comes mutations and alterations of narrations. Somalis learnt clanism from Arabs and their abtirso doesn't usually go beyond the time when Islam reached our shores. I don't care much about being a first or second class Somali, Arab or an imitation of a westerner. I would rather just be a good Muslim, anything beyond that is a bonus. This is because I'm a Muslim first then a Somali (if Somalism comes before Islam for anyone then they need to go back to the basics and learn the Deen and understand the consequences of their choices).

 

 

Originally posted by me:

Somaliness and being Muslim is not a contradiction. Saying that I want my language pure does not make me less of a Muslim. Keeping my culture and respecting my heritage makes me a better person, leaving my culture is the way to mental enslavement if not the destruction of our people.

You can indeed be both SOmali and Muslim, no contradiction. But if a Somali practise is forbidden in Islam then you have to abandon it since your faith in Allah takes precedence over anything else, even your own parents.

 

Let's say your house is on fire with your wife and four children in it (God forbid), would you save your furniture or would you first try to save your loved ones? In this analogy, the Somali identity is the burning house, the wife and children is your religion of Islam and the furniture is your culture. Loosing your religion is far more sinister than losing your culture, and in times like this when we are being eroded by western culture and Arab culture as you put it, you do what is in your best interest.

 

Plus, losing your language and culture does not bring about destruction of a people, losing your religion does. Reflect on this walaal and understand your priorities.

 

Originally posted by me:

Frantz Fanon – “I ascribe a basic importance to the phenomenon of language.... To speak means to be in a position to use a certain syntax, to grasp the morphology of this or that language but it means above all to assume a culture, to support the weight of a civilizationâ€.

This kind of statement must put you in a dilemma! As a Muslim, learning Arabic is important for you to understand the Qur'an and the Deen in general. With Arabic comes an Islamic civilisation too to which we are part of as our Ummah. What would learning English make you part of? The commonwealth?

 

Originally posted by me:

With this quote I would like to illustrate that with each Somali word that is replaced with a new alien word (mostly Arab) would mean us loosing a bit our culture. Every word has a deeper meaning and carries our history. We Somalis are an oral society, our history has been transmitted to us through our language, not seeing the dangers that Arabism poses to our culture would be highly irresponsible.

There is no language in the world that does not have words from other languages, ask any linguist. As time goes by, new inventions are made and a language transforms. The problem with the Somali people is that a vast majority of us don't know how broad our language is. Again, this could be because of our oral literature which is not easily transmittable especially since people have become ever so displaced in the last two decades or so. In etymology you find out a lot about a people and there is even a piece I posted on this forum that looks at words from a pre-Islamic point of view, their probable origins and their meanings. No sane Somali would want to eradicate the Somali language, but, this does not come about by saying MashAllah, InshaAllah, Istaghfurullah, Alhamdulillah etc, words that often make people think that we are Arabising.

 

Originally posted by me:

We should be fighting all attacks on us and we should fight back with our culture and re-examine our history. Our history did not start with the colonials; we are an ancient people with an ancient civilization. We Somalis are unique.

I agree with you there, but as a people we have sunk to new lows since the collapse of the Barre regime and need to first learn how to become and act like human beings before we can dig for our history. Our destiny is also more important than our history. Just like the Arabs, what we did before the advent of Islam is not as important as what we do with our lives in the present and in the future.

[Jacpher]

Originally posted by me:

The Arabs are also trying to rob two great military victories from us. The first being the claim that the great Somali Commander who conquered Abyssinia Axmed Guray was one of them and of course claiming that it was

they

who have beaten the Americans in the battle of Mogadishu (claims by Osama).

You mean they by Osama & Al-Qaida, believed to be terrorist organization, not Arabization organization, or Arab nations or league? I’m not a history major but I’ve yet to hear or see Arab country/government claiming Axmed Guray being Arab individual. If you don’t mind sharing your findings [besides the name] supporting Gurey was Somali? Osama also claimed the West is out to get Islam and that Muslims who pay taxes in support of western governments are in the same category as their governments. Do you believe these claims as well?

[me]

Viking,

 

I understand your arguments although I think you are wrong in perceiving Arabic influence as benign and in some cases desirable; I understand where you are coming from and that Islam is your main justification. But our religion recognizes the different nations of the world and their customs. Yes there are universal Islamic rules that all believers should follow. I agree with that 100%. We should not have customs that are contradictory with our Islamic faith. However there are many customs that we Somalis have that that are not against Islam and I am suggesting that we keep those customs. Instead of throwing everything that is Somali away and replacing them with Arabic ones or western. I am not against Islam; I am against Arabism and the Arabization of our people, language and culture. I am also not in favour of these western values.

 

We Somalis should stick to our Somali and Islamic values. The moment things went wrong was when we tried to be like others. When we wanted to become like they are in Aden or we said we that democracy or scientific socialism will solve all our problems.. Or the funny jokes of federalism, with voices coming from all directions yelling. ‘We want states, like America’ ‘No, like Germany’…or some saying no the ‘Swiss’. Why are we always looking at others and their cultures and systems? Why do we lack the confidence in our abilities? What is wrong with our culture that we need to abandon it or mimic other cultures and their values?

 

We are Somalis and nothing will work or us unless it’s Somali.

 

Originally posted by Viking:

 

The schizophrenia doesn't stem from anything other than lack of written pre-Islamic history. We have an oral tradition and with this comes mutations and alterations of narrations. [/QB]

I do agree with you on this one, so isn’t it time that we investigated our history and created the foundations of the New Somalia with that history. It is time that we rhymed our past, present and future. It my opinion it is time for the creation of the Somali myth that rhymes our past glory, our present struggle and our future promise.

 

We as Somalis should have a common goal. There are small differences but there are goals that unite us all and there is a history that binds us. The common interest should outweigh everything else.

 

It might at times seem that my arguments are all over the place, but I am talking from one point of view and that point of view is that I believe that we should look into Somali culture for the solutions. That we protect our language and culture from foreign interference and that we protect our land and liberate the occupied territories.

That we create a new Somalia that is totally Somali, in every aspect of life. When I say Somali, I mean Somali-Islamic values. (It might seem familiar, and very Pan-Somalist, but I think we should take it ever further)

 

By the way I liked your piece on Somali etymology.

[Salahh]

Uhhh yeah...about that. I see your point Viking. But also, I will speak from an agnostic point of view (mine). The reason I am for secularism is because religion is a little too harsh. We are humans and we have a tendency to be wrong almost all the time. I absolutely disagree with having my hand chopped off due to the hunger that drove me to steal a banana. It's a ******* banana and I am sure my hand is worth more than that (just an analogy). If this hunger drives me to resort to my previous action, eventually all my limbs will be gone. Is it me or is this course of action a little harsh? I disagree with having to be linched to death or near-death for my over active hormones. I am sorry but not every human alive believes that their main purpose on earth is to procreate.

 

Now, due to these simple facts I was able to gather in my childhood (not sure if it's true or false), how am I supposed to accept a religious court? I would rather live in a world where the quote "an eye for an eye" is practised. A murderer should be killed. A rapist castrated and so on....isn't that a fair world in itself?

 

Also, I think it is not only Somalis who are losing their culture....I think most Africans are. But I do agree that we should go back to our roots.

[Viking]

Originally posted by me:

I understand your arguments although I think you are wrong in perceiving Arabic influence as benign and in some cases desirable; I understand where you are coming from and that Islam is your main justification. But our religion recognizes the different nations of the world and their customs. Yes there are universal Islamic rules that all believers should follow. I agree with that 100%. We should not have customs that are contradictory with our Islamic faith. However there are many customs that we Somalis have that that are not against Islam and I am suggesting that we keep those customs. Instead of throwing everything that is Somali away and replacing them with Arabic ones or western. I am not against Islam; I am against Arabism and the Arabization of our people, language and culture. I am also not in favour of these western values.

me,

You had such kind words to say about Ataturk and this may come across as support for westernisation. Arab culture is only benign when compared to the common alternative, western culture. Cultures are changing all over the world all the time and if our culture survives it all then alhamdulillah, if it doesn't then alhamdulillah, all that matters is for our faith to remain unadulterated. I understand your point of view much better now.

 

 

Salahh,

Islam doesn't say that the hands of poor people should be cut off when they steal to feed their hungry stomachs, this is an illusion spread by those who are against the Shari'a. The Caliph Umar (RA) suspended HADD punishment during famine because the state could not fulfil its obligation towards the people. The limb of a thief is to be cut only when there is no need for a thief to steal (meaning there is a Bait-ul-Maal which sees to the need of the society). Therefore this kind of punishment should not be implemented in poverty stricken regions like Somalia, Afghanistan etc. until there is peace, a legitimate govt, religious scholars who oversee the judicial system and a kind of welfare system (like has been earlier during the advent of Islam). Religious laws do not opress the people but is there to protect their rights, those opposing it do their best to tell you otherwise.

 

I would advise you to study Islam as much as you can before you pass a judgement from your agnostic point of view. Don't study it from an Oriental or Occidental point of view but delve into the subject with an open mind before you make up your mind. Don't rely on what you hear or merely what you gathered from your childhood.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by me:

Viking,

 

I understand your arguments although

I think you are wrong in perceiving Arabic influence as benign and in some cases desirable

; I understand where you are coming from and that Islam is your main justification. But our religion recognizes the different nations of the world and their customs. Yes there are universal Islamic rules that all believers should follow. I agree with that 100%. We should not have customs that are contradictory with our Islamic faith.

However there are many customs that we Somalis have that that are not against Islam and I am suggesting that we keep those customs.

Instead of throwing everything that is Somali away and replacing them with Arabic ones or western. I am not against Islam;

I am against Arabism and the Arabization of our people, language and culture.

I am also not in favour of these western values.

 

1- Whether one perceives Arabic influence as benign and desirable is a personal matter; there is really no way it can be 'wrong'. Just wearing a yellow fedora is not a 'wrong' way of dressing. Please don't browbeat people into accepting your position.

 

2- No one has suggested abandoning Somali customs that are not contradictory with Islam.

 

3- It's perfectly fine to be against Arabism and Arabization but recognize that is your individual choice. People who choose Arabism and Arabization have that legitimate right also. Forced Arabization is something everyone recognizes is wrong. Same goes for forced Somalization for a 'westernized' Somali

 

It's a free country and I personally don't care what people do with regard to culture - however, Islam should be the defining basis for any culture especially that in Somalia.

[Positive]

May be this piece in another thread will contribute to your discussion:

 

Walaalayaal,

 

In another posting Shaqsii asked us many questions. In my view we are in a cultural CRISIS. A new culture is in the making and OUR culture is dying. I say our culture because the new culture is not still ours.

 

Contrary to our cultural heritage, this new culture, is for example, more materialistic. It is more individual centred then group centered and worst of all our traditional family values are erroded !

 

I will here rather present the groups- not their evolving cultural inputs- which I called "new culture in the making in the above pragraph".

 

In my view there are at least four groups in our society who are unconsciously/consciously contributing to this emerging culture. The collective members of every group is always trying to assert their influence on us so that we may share their ideal way of life. Every group thinks that their ideal way of Life has the solutions for the problems we are facing now or any eventual problems which may arise in the future.

 

The groups are: - you can read more

 

http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000428#000000

[me]

Positive, cool, I will be posting on that other tread.

 

The Point - freedom of what? We are talking about bigger things here, our culture is dying and you are protecting arabism. The worst enemy of Somali are the Somalis, I wish we had people who respected themselves and who respected their heritage. If these people where a real Somali movement and not a group of mercenaries funded by arab nations then maybe they would have respected our values.

 

CAN YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERNECE BETWEEN ISLAM AND ARABISM?

[ElPunto]

^My goodness - it seems all logic escapes you. The only thing I'm protecting is the right of people to choose whatever culture/style/mode of living they desire. It really is that simple.

[me]

The-point that is good of you so go on and protect the right of Somali people to choose their cultur too.

[Kashafa]

I am also astounded someone can make an accusation of that magnitude and expect to get away with it.

HornAfrique,

 

What you call accusations, thousands of people call facts. This ain't "Waxa-la-yiri" Times, this is "Waxaa-igu-dacay" Gazette. I don't see how you can argue with that, unless ur calling them liars.

 

A lady personally tells me that she and 6 of her friends were told to either drop the hijaab or drop Lafoole College, and I'm supposed to question that ?(they dropped the college) Because HornAfrique and MMA will feel bad about the Barre regime ? Maybe I should've asked her for her sources ?( Eedo, ayathoo qoran oo saxiixan macal sawirkaaga oo student ID'ga circa 1975 ma haysaa) ?

 

No, my akhi. I don't need sources to document the anti-Islamic nature of the Barre regime. It's like asking for proof that the Pope is Christian.(hint: he wears a big cross on his chest). Pope = Christian. Secular + Military = anti-Islam. Barre-dude is just a manifestation of that equation.

 

But for argument's sake:

 

A) 11 scholars were summarily executed. You dispute that ?

 

B)The inheritance and divorce laws of Islam were changed. You dispute that ?

 

P.S. Ok, feeling a lil bit guilty here so I will give you a source: I.M. Lewis's A Modern History of Somalia. ISBN: 058264657X. Excellent and balanced(for a Brit) read.

[Gabbal]

Kashafa-

 

Sheeko Heblaayo is wrong and right is not my point. Discussing whether Siad Barre's government was an Islamically rooted government or not is also not my point of contention.

 

Accusing the former president of banning the hijab and the prayer, two fundamental aspects of our religion, IS my point of contention. Proof is in the pudding now be a doll and provide the pudding awoowe.

 

Nowadays you would have to be lucky not to come across some sort of revision of history by "enlightened" young ones.