Siyad Barre, the Ataturk of Somalia?

[Kashafa]

@better ask me and i will tell u the truth. I like your style, homes.

 

Me,

 

You're falling in the old trap of equating Islam and Arabism. Arabs have been getting their collective butts kicked by Israel simply because they resorted to nationalism. You get your kicks out of hating Arabs, fine by me. But don't distort history.

 

That wasn't the subject anyway. Barre and Attaurk were, and they both codified and enforced laws that were at best, contradictory to Islam, and at worst, aimed at eradicating Islam from the political, social, and economical arenas. Sing their praises all you want; their record stands for history to judge.

[me]

Kashafa my friend,

 

Arabs are always selling us Arabism with Islam.

 

Its like 1 for the price of 2.

 

I am against Arabism and the Somali islamists of today should reject there Arab cultural traits and bring us Somali Islam otherwise they will not be credible in my book.

 

So you tell me do you support Arabism? or should we stick to pure islam and keep our SOMALI culture without giving everything away.

 

Read this article and how they are mixing Arab culture and Islamic Culture and how they are trying to change our language and expand their Arab heritage under the disguise of Islam.

 

http://www.isesco.org.ma/pub/Eng/Marabic/P2.htm

[Mr.Faarax]

islamist. arabism. jihadist. wahabism

what u gonna say next. the quran was in somali? what you gonna tell me you are writting in somali now? why dont u reject english then you no brain.....i dont know what to call these people walahi. they vomit all over the place. all i say is keep using those names and on the day of judgement we will see.

[me]

Tan bal eeg

 

http://www.somaliaonline.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000126#000014

 

af xumadaadana dadka kala fogow

 

Caydu ma fiicna.

[DAZZLER]

barre didn't have intentions of eradictin islam.rubbish.we know what we are as somalis.they use all possible ways to distort things in their interest regaedless of the way.so some few individuals tried to twist things to mis_inform pple abt his credentials.so please stop alignin baree with attaturku get me?

[Salahh]

Great topic.....

 

I seem to agree with 'me' on this topic. Especially when it comes to how much influence religion should have on a society. People should have the right to worship by choice and religion should never factor into laws made by man. Also, when it comes to Arabism and Islam, I think they are so intertwined that most Muslims are loosing sight of their religion. Somalis should have the right to practice their religion but should also keep their culture instead of adapting to the Arabian culture. I do understand why the Quran should be in one language because if people start writing it different languages, some of the meaning would be mis-translated or even lost. So, should this mean that we should adapt to their culture too? I think I can be just a good a muslim by abiding to my culture and following the Quran. What Ataturk did for the turks is what we need our leaders to do for us. If we all practised secularism, the world would be a better place.

[Viking]

Salahh,

Originally posted by Salahh:

People should have the right to worship by choice and religion should never factor into laws made by man. Also, when it comes to Arabism and Islam, I think they are so intertwined that most Muslims are loosing sight of their religion.

This remark implies that Islam is not a choice, the Qur'an is clear about this...

 

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: The Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Al-Baqara 2:256)

 

What is Arabism and what makes you think it too intertwined with Islam beyond recognition? Does the Islam of Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country), Malaysia, Pakistan, Nigeria etc support this claim?

 

 

Originally posted by Salahh:

Somalis should have the right to practice their religion but should also keep their culture instead of adapting to the Arabian culture...So, should this mean that we should adapt to their culture too? I think I can be just a good a muslim by abiding to my culture and following the Quran. What Ataturk did for the turks is what we need our leaders to do for us. If we all practised secularism, the world would be a better place.

The irony is that people have no problem when Somalis take to western cultures but constantly complain about Arabization of Somalis. Is it because they feel the western culture superior to the Arab culture? In 9/10 Somali weddings, the bride wears a white dress and the groom a suit or a tuxedo and have a multi-storey cake in front of them. Almost Somali all youth have a western dresscode, listen to western music, are up-to-date with the latest Holywood movies. Somali youth also have memorised the latest hip-hop lyrics but can hardly read (or understand) a line of Somali gabay, where are the voices of dissent? Unfortunately this lamenting of Aribisation of the Somalis is often nothing more than a disguised enmity towards Islam.

 

What Ataturk did is opt for a westernisation (instead of modernisation - see Japan for comparison) of a Muslim Turkey. He chose latin alphabets instead of Arabic and thought western culture to be superior to Turkish and Arabic culture. Ataturk would probably be proud of his legacy today; women are not allowed to wear hijab in public institutions of education and Turkey is doing its best to please the Europeans in order to join the EU and be part of the Christian block. Turkey also allows the Israeli army to use its airspace for military exercises, this prepares the Zionists in the destruction of Muslim lives as we see today in Lebanon and Gaza.

 

Iran took an opposite direction after the Revolution and they are today, unlike the Turks, doing their best to help Muslims like they are doing for Hamas and Hezbollah in fighting the oppression of the Israeli war machine. Iran is also being isolated because they refuse to acknowledge the illegal state of Israel.

 

Any Muslim who promotes secularism does not understand Islam for the law of man can not be deemed superior (or more humane) to the Laws of Allah SWT. Plus, secularism is often not a choice in Muslim countries because we have seen how the countries that opt for a thecracy are treated by the west (Algeria and Iran are good examples).

[Resistance]

Salah

So what is securalism and can you practice it?

 

You say that you want follow the Qur'aan, how do you plan to do tat alongside the securalism you so much beleive will save our people ?

 

Also have you ever asked yourself what does calling yourself a Muslim actually entail?

[me]

Viking your arguments on Somali culture are valid, however we can find another million examples of the Arabization of our culture. It is not a secret that there are forces that would like to see the Somali culture and language disappeared and replaced with an Arabized one. One of those groups is the group whose link I have posted in the previous post. Somali Youths opting for western culture are doing this by ‘choice’ and not because the West is interfering with out culture like the Arabs are under the disguise of Islam. And I think that you are very wrong when you suggest that Somalis think that ‘Western’ culture is superior to Arab culture, please back this claim up with evidence. A question, aren’t the Arab youths not doing the same thing, Listening to 2pac and reciting all hip-hop lyrics and are their weddings not the same as the western ones?

 

I believe that Salah meant that religion is a personal affair and that there should be no state interference between an individual and his or her religious practice and that the state should be fair to all forms of practice.

 

I would like to raise one point.

 

In Islam the worship is between god and the believer and there should be no intermediary. It is the believer that is submitting to Allah swt.

 

It is god who will judge us in the hereafter for our deeds. There should be no human meddling in the worship of Allah. Or no human judging our deeds and saying whether we are ‘Good Muslims’ or ‘Bad Muslims’

 

Each individual should have the freedom to worship Allah without any pressure from any group. After all Islam is the true way and the true way will never be deserted as long as it’s illuminated, if there are forces that want to force individuals to pray or to worship Allah swt. it would work counter productive, because if a person is worshipping because they fear prosecution that that is not right and Allah swt. Knows that and another effect would be that people will associate worshipping not with the right path and salvation but with the human enforcers of religion.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by me:

Viking your arguments on Somali culture are valid, however we can find another million examples of the Arabization of our culture. It is not a secret that there are forces that would like to see the Somali culture and language disappeared and replaced with an Arabized one. One of those groups is the group whose link I have posted in the previous post. Somali Youths opting for western culture are doing this by ‘choice’ and not because the West is interfering with out culture like the Arabs are under the disguise of Islam.

I would love to see a few of the million examples of Arabization of Somalia by outsiders. And please don't posit any examples where groups or individuals have chosen to adopt aspects of Arab culture.

[Salahh]

Viking,

 

Appreciate the response and the amount of detail you went into to make me understand some of the things I blame on ignorance. I truly appreciate it. As 'me' mentioned, my main point was that religion should be a personal choice and shouldn't be enforced by the public. If my devotion is towards my God, I will be sorry for my deads and would seek the punishment stated in my doctrine. But if the public will punish me for my sin, who do you think I will be afraid off? I can assure you that it would definately not be God. When it comes to Ataturk, some of the actions he took were inapropriate. I am pro-choice in every aspect of my life and if a woman wants to wear Hijab in public or wants to have an abortion, I don't think that should be anybody's business. All in all, what I am trying to say is that what I do with my life should be my personal problem and no soul should tell me otherwise.

 

By the way Viking, I will hold you to that Arsenal game

[N.O.R.F]

I could basically write an entire book detailing how the Barre regime lead a campaign eradicating Islam from Somali life. The evidence is that damning. It's not even on a 'did he/or did he not' level. I'm suprised that you, an obviously astute observer of the Somali political scene, would dispute that.

I 2nd that.

[Viking]

Originally posted by me:

It is not a secret that there are forces that would like to see the Somali culture and language disappeared and replaced with an Arabized one. One of those groups is the group whose link I have posted in the previous post. Somali Youths opting for western culture are doing this by ‘choice’ and not because the West is interfering with out culture like the Arabs are under the disguise of Islam. And I think that you are very wrong when you suggest that Somalis think that ‘Western’ culture is superior to Arab culture, please back this claim up with evidence.

There are forces that would like the SOmali people to be far from Islam as much as possible. The lates evidence in this is the funding of the warlords by the Americans who were doing it to block the emergence of Islam as a force. The west is interfering with the Somali culture (and theri religion of Islam) under the disguise of "freedom", "democracy" and "free-trade", but why don't we see you complaining against this?

 

I don't need to back up anything regarding how Somali youth think western culture is superior, the truth is out there for you to see. Our so called president dons a western style suit, what does that tell you about what he sees as "respectable and decent dresscode?" The dominant culture all over the world is the western culture, especially the Anglo-Saxon culture. English is also the most wide-spread language in the world. So in reality, if there's any culture that threatens ALL other cultures in the world then it is the western mono-culture. But I don't understand why this doesn't bother you at all but find it within yourself to blame Arabs, a people whose culture is also being eroded by the western mono-culture. Do you see the duplicity in all this?

 

You claim that Somali youth follow western culture 'out of choice', are you insinuating that Somalis who wear Jilbaabs, Sirwal-khamiis, the Arab Khamiis etc are doing it out of coercion? Can you back this up?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but you must think western culture is superior to Somali or Arab culture because we dont see you lamenting its influence among the Somali youth.

 

 

Originally posted by me:

A question, aren’t the Arab youths not doing the same thing, Listening to 2pac and reciting all hip-hop lyrics and are their weddings not the same as the western ones?

Yes, their culture is being overwhelmed by western culture. But you seem more concerned about them than the main enemy which is western culture. I once read about an American writer who was complaining about the spread of American culture. Most countries he visited had McDonald's, Burger King's etc and the people were watching Holywood movies and imitating westerners in almost all aspects of their lives. He wanted to experience the local culture but couldn't find much.

 

Somalis are Muslims and would take after the Arabs in some things. The countries that were colonised also took after their colonialists i.e. Djiboutis look up to france and French culture while a country like Kenya would be more in touch with Anglo-saxon traditions because of their link with the colonialist Britain.

 

But the problem is thet the western culture has a much larger influence on Somalis but you are only lamenting the Arab influence. Why is that?

 

Originally posted by me:

I believe that Salah meant that religion is a personal affair and that there should be no state interference between an individual and his or her religious practice and that the state should be fair to all forms of practice. I would like to raise one point. In Islam the worship is between god and the believer and there should be no intermediary. It is the believer that is submitting to Allah swt.

I don't know whether you are saying this out of ignorance of Islam or whether you are in the belief that religion should be confirmed to the home (like the Occidentals who divorced the church).

 

There are some things that are between you and Allah, i.e. Salat, Fasting, Hajj, paying of Alms etc. But there are some things that are run and enforced by the govt just like they are in western countries. Things like taxes, crime and punishment, determining what is acceptable or legal and setting up sets of laws taht would govern the nation.

 

The view of Islam in some cases is different from that of the west. For example, adultery in the west is seen as something private and out of the reach of the govt while in Islam it is viewed as a sin and against the Law, something that breaks down the values that a society is built upon (trust, loyalty, truthfulness etc). So you will see a departure from the western thinking in such cases and being against enforcement of such laws shows that you are against the Laws of Allah SWT.

 

If you understand Islam, you will learn that by being a Muslim, you must accept that the Laws of Allah should take the front seat (and not be confined in the 'home' as you suggest). Islam is against things like usury but in the west it is a major source of income for big gluttonous commerce insitutions. If it goes unchecked, things like this can destroy a society, whose rsponsibility is it?

 

Originally posted by me:

It is god who will judge us in the hereafter for our deeds. There should be no human meddling in the worship of Allah. Or no human judging our deeds and saying whether we are ‘Good Muslims’ or ‘Bad Muslims’

I agree with you. Are people beaten with sticks in Somalia or any other Muslim country and forced to go pray in the mosque? I think not. But the dress-code rules must be enforced by the govt because even in most western countries, despite their laws, one cannot walk naked (or topless for women) in the streets because their laws forbid it. As I mentionned before there are some things that are between you and Allah and no one has the right to interfere, Salat, Fasting, Hajj and belief in Allah. These are private matters that none other than Allah can punish.

 

 

Originally posted by me:

Each individual should have the freedom to worship Allah without any pressure from any group. After all Islam is the true way and the true way will never be deserted as long as it’s illuminated, if there are forces that want to force individuals to pray or to worship Allah swt. it would work counter productive, because if a person is worshipping because they fear prosecution that that is not right and Allah swt. Knows that and another effect would be that people will associate worshipping not with the right path and salvation but with the human enforcers of religion.

No one is arguing against this. "There is no compulsion in religion: The Truth stands out clear from Error."

 

 

Salahh,

Originally posted by Salahh:

As 'me' mentioned, my main point was that religion should be a personal choice and shouldn't be enforced by the public. If my devotion is towards my God, I will be sorry for my deads and would seek the punishment stated in my doctrine. But if the public will punish me for my sin, who do you think I will be afraid off? I can assure you that it would definately not be God. When it comes to Ataturk, some of the actions he took were inapropriate. I am pro-choice in every aspect of my life and if a woman wants to wear Hijab in public or wants to have an abortion, I don't think that should be anybody's business. All in all, what I am trying to say is that what I do with my life should be my personal problem and no soul should tell me otherwise.

No one is forced to worship Allah, it is done out of choice. What is the value of faith if it is imposed and doesn't come naturally from the soul of the human being? Wouldn't it be futile? However, as I told 'me' some things are viewed differently in Islam. I gave the example of adultery which is a sin against the spouse, society and also Allah. An Islamic govt would not force you to pray, fast, or pay alms but, just like other govts in the world it will not let you cheat, steal, kill etc.

 

"Pro-choice" sounds good but the laws put up by govts are there because if let unchecked humans would sink into new depths of decadence. Abortion is also allowed in Islam but not as a method of contraceptive which is how it used in the west (i.e. a couple has too much to drink, have unprotected sex and oops, an abortion ahs to be done).

 

As for the Gunners game, InshaAllah some day

[me]

The point- on the issue of the million examples. It was a reply to Vikings comment on the adoption of Western culture by Somalis, There are million examples of cultural traits there where originally associated with Arabs that are now being introduced or are fully accepted as Somali customs. You don’t have to look far for it and if you can not see it then it means that you have accepted those customs as your own and no longer see them as ‘alien’.

 

Northerner- please write that book on the Barre’s regimes campaign for the eradicating Islam from Somali life.

 

Originally posted by Viking:

There are forces that would like the SOmali people to be far from Islam as much as possible. The lates evidence in this is the funding of the warlords by the Americans [/QB]

Yes Viking there are those forces and I would like to add the missionaries that list who are trying to win souls in Somalia, Somali refugee camps in Kenya and Ethiopia and even in the west. Yes there are such forces. There are also the forces fuelling our civil war (Westerners, Africans and Arabs) who all are the enemies of Somalia and are after their own interests and not the interests of the Somali people.

 

Yes the western or American cultural imperialism is hitting the whole world with equal force. The problem in Somalia is that there are two cultural imperial forces competing for us, namely the Arab and the Western. In my opinion they are equally dangerous since they both have one mission and that mission is the destruction of the Somali culture and replacing it with theirs. Who ever wins, it will be us Somalis who will loose, unless we do something about this.

 

Opting for Arab culture or regarding Arab culture as benign in comparison with the Western culture would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. In my opinion the Arab culture is more dangerous to us as Somalis then the western culture. This is mainly because this culture is being pushed down our throats with the excuse that it is Islamic. The western culture is alien and incompatible with our ‘dhaqan’ and it can be dealt with a relative ease compared with Arab culture which is more sensitive.

 

We as Somalis should protect our culture and language, because the day we loose our SOMALI culture and language is the day that we as a nation have lost our identity. Today you hear some people say that we are ‘Arabs’ while others are saying that we are ‘Africans’ this schizophrenia come from the identity crisis that we are facing today. We have to look deeper in ourselves. It is time for reflection. Who are we and what is our place in the world? I as me would rather be a first class Somali then a second class Arab or a cheap imitation of a Westerner.

 

Somaliness and being Muslim is not a contradiction. Saying that I want my language pure does not make me less of a Muslim. Keeping my culture and respecting my heritage makes me a better person, leaving my culture is the way to mental enslavement if not the destruction of our people.

 

Frantz Fanon – “I ascribe a basic importance to the phenomenon of language.... To speak means to be in a position to use a certain syntax, to grasp the morphology of this or that language but it means above all to assume a culture, to support the weight of a civilizationâ€.

 

With this quote I would like to illustrate that with each Somali word that is replaced with a new alien word (mostly Arab) would mean us loosing a bit our culture. Every word has a deeper meaning and carries our history. We Somalis are an oral society, our history has been transmitted to us through our language, not seeing the dangers that Arabism poses to our culture would be highly irresponsible.

 

We should be fighting all attacks on us and we should fight back with our culture and re-examine our history. Our history did not start with the colonials; we are an ancient people with an ancient civilization. We Somalis are unique.

[me]

The Arabs are also trying to rob two great military victories from us. The first being the claim that the great Somali Commander who conquered Abyssinia Axmed Guray was one of them and of course claiming that it was they who have beaten the Americans in the battle of Mogadishu (claims by Osama).

 

Why do they need to claim our victories?

 

That saying was so true. "Victory has many fathers, while defeat is an orphan"