In Slave Mothers and Swinging Buttocks

[ElPunto]

I read the initial piece and I was left with one thought - pointless. And I didn't expect this from an intelligent and thoughtful poster. Some of the comments struck me as belabored and stretching. Sudden doesn't preclude that signs(for those who know and believe) will appear. That the time of the Hour is known only to Allah doesn't preclude that His signs will appear to foreshadow that time.

 

Quite frankly I hadn't heard of the two concluding hadiths - and I don't fully understand them as presented by Naden. And I look forward to others explaining them in detail. But if they are authentic and sound hadiths - then I take them as full part of my religion, Islam. The religion is belief in God, the Quran, the hadiths etc etc. I find the recent phenemonon of picking and choosing with regard to Islam(as if it was some sort of cheesy smorgasbord) puzzling and pathetic.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by J B:

Naden, Self-reflection and balanced positive questioning of what one believes are fair and a badly needed quality, especially in contrast to the prevailing belief system on SOL where principles such as self-criticizing or critical thinking are all but unheard of.

 

I wish the swinging buttocks would knock some people out.

[Castro]

^ LOL. That's on topic.

 

But seriously, sudden is, by definition, without warning. Check it out. So having warnings and being sudden are a contradiction in terms. But this may not necessarily be applicable to the day of judgement. Just knowing that it is coming is an implicit warning. People are often said to have died "suddenly" (in Arabic, "mowt-al-qhafla") when it has been known from the begining of time that life can only lead to death. So it's the sudden in that context, perhaps, that the Quran tells us about the day of judgement. You know it's coming but when it does, it is sudden.

[Naden]

The Point,

 

Some of the comments struck me as belabored and stretching. Sudden doesn't preclude that signs(for those who know and believe) will appear. That the time of the Hour is known only to Allah doesn't preclude that His signs will appear to foreshadow that time.

 

The ‘signs’ in the Quran seem to speak of the actual moments, whatever their lengths maybe, of the collapse of the earth as we know it. Judgment day and the eternal life cannot begin before this one ends. The collapse of the earth, the arrival of Ya’JuJ and Ma’JuJ, the smoke, the horn, and so on are signs of the end of this world. As a believer, they make sense to me; even metaphorically as I cannot imagine them, they do. What doesn’t make sense is a ‘sign’ that is really nothing more than an odious staple of human interaction that's stubbornly lingered for centuries.

 

That a slave mother gives birth to a child who might grow to be her master does not fit in with the nature and type of the immediate ‘signs’ of the hour in the Quran. What's interesting is that the ‘signs’ of the hour outside the Quran are similar to those imagined and believed by cultures and groups foreign to Islam and other monotheistic religions. That they are central to people’s interactions with morality, mortality and reflections of a higher power is evident.

 

You speak of a ‘foreshadow’. Just how does this ongoing human interaction foreshadow the end? Could humans reach a point of tyranny, poverty and collapse of social justice that slavery is the norm and most women’s wombs bring forth young masters? Could be. Would this mean the end of the world? Maybe. However, a few more countries gaining nuclear weapons and serious fights over oil and water are more ominous and could bring about a speedier end to humanity.

 

In my belief, even in the worst scenarios that we humans, with our limitations imagine, the end as spelled out in the Quran is only knowledgeable to God and will happen at his whim as shown by these few verses among many others (Shaker translation): Source

 

10.045 And on the day when He will gather them as though they had not stayed but an hour of the day, they will know each other. They will perish indeed who called the meeting with Allah to be a lie, and they are not followers of the right direction.

 

12.107 Do they then feel secure that there may come to them an extensive chastisement from Allah or (that) the hour may come to them suddenly while they do not perceive?

 

16.077 And Allah's is the unseen of the heavens and the earth; and the matter of the hour is but as the twinkling of an eye or it is higher still; surely Allah has power over all things.

 

20.015 Lo! the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it striveth (to achieve).

 

33.063 Men ask thee concerning the Hour: Say, "The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone)": and what will make thee understand? - perchance the Hour is nigh!

 

I find the recent phenemonon of picking and choosing with regard to Islam(as if it was some sort of cheesy smorgasbord) puzzling and pathetic.

 

No one is picking and choosing anything. You've never even heard of these ahadeeth and yet you find it 'pathetic' that they are discussed? Matters of significance, relations and reference are important when something is vague. I choose to discuss a list that claims one of the signs of the hour is that “Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business†(Ahmad) (#60) and you can choose to abstain.

[Pi]

ThePoint: Dude, hats off, well said!

 

Castro: Put your pom-poms away for a minute. Seriously! Put on your thinking cap. Ready? Make sure its not too tight; oxygen circulation is of the essence here. Just look at what the lack of it did to some of the other posters. Don't cry ad hominem just yet, I'm going somewhere with this. Let's discuss.

 

Three statements were made in this thread. And all these statements were either insipid, unimaginative, and, all around, uninteresting. Dude, the dullness is capable of stunning an insomniac to sleep.

 

Similiarity of eschatalogical beliefs

 

Is there a similiarity of eschatological beliefs in many religions? Of course. I bet the average joe on the street knows this without ever having read voliminous books on theology. I guess all this was new to Naden, sort of explains her revelatory tone: look what I have found, there are similiar eschatological beliefs between Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and even some mythologies? Oh really? No kidding. :rolleyes:

 

Many belief systems share or have similiar beliefs in subjects other eschatology. Umm, try the human condition, salvation, good and evil. Why is similiarty in eschatological beliefs anymore interesting than, say, the presence of the element of evil in most religions and mythologies. It's an uninteresting, discovery, no?

 

The end of the world

 

Oh, guess what? Many religions claim that end is nigh. Muwahahahawha! Ummm, that's common knowledge. You must be a freshman; that comparitive religion class must make you giddy with excitment. Seriously though, my response is: so what?

 

No one knows anything about the end of time, except Allah

 

Ummm, I disagree. I know something about the end of time. I may not know exactly when it is, but I do have a general idea about its timing as revealed in the quran. Surah Al-Qamar, first verse, it is said that, the end is nigh. So I know one thing about its timing, that it is near, no? Admittedly, this verse in the Quran, and all the other ahadith that metnion the nearness and the signs, are hopelessly vague. Still, a clue is a clue is a clue is a clue.

[Animal Farm]

I think Allah orchestrates all things in this universe, everyone’s life is accounted for, and no one is left untested and not be judged. Clearly the signs have been seen, and many of them have been noted as many have mentioned.

 

Will the world end because of human actions that are independent from a higher power, I doubt that. However, human action might lead to the worsening of our condition, such as wars, environmental abuse, and that might be a SIGN in itself.

 

The world can end instantly, so can life, if we accept that, we should be good.

[Naden]

Pi,

 

I am neither a freshman nor am I 'giddy' with thoughts that so offend with their elementary nature. One thing I could not surpass you in is the art of respectful, intelligent and civilized discussion. And to think that you have gone through the trouble of reading and posting without adding anything of substance. Personal attacks and adolescent whining not withstanding, of course.

 

Animal Farm

 

The world can end instantly, so can life.....

 

I believe so as well.

[Castro]

^ Did I not warn you on the methodology in use here? Now you know I wasn't kidding.

 

Originally posted by Pi:

Castro: Put your pom-poms away for a minute.

Why? So you could use them?

 

Originally posted by Pi:

ThePoint: Dude, hats off, well said!

Get your own bloody pompoms.

[Naden]

^ Yes, you did, brother, and your warnings are now well-heeded.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by naden:

The ‘signs’ in the Quran seem to speak of the actual moments, whatever their lengths maybe, of the collapse of the earth as we know it. Judgment day and the eternal life cannot begin before this one ends. The collapse of the earth, the arrival of Ya’JuJ and Ma’JuJ, the smoke, the horn, and so on are signs of the end of this world. As a believer, they make sense to me; even metaphorically as I cannot imagine them, they do. What doesn’t make sense is a ‘sign’ that is really nothing more than an odious staple of human interaction that's stubbornly lingered for centuries.

I am not sure why it doesn't make sense to you as stated in that last sentence. The word 'signs' is used here in more than one context. Actual moments as you described above and signs that are indicative of the human condition as the end times approach.

 

That a slave mother gives birth to a child who might grow to be her master does not fit in with the nature and type of the immediate ‘signs’ of the hour in the Quran. What's interesting is that the ‘signs’ of the hour outside the Quran are similar to those imagined and believed by cultures and groups foreign to Islam and other monotheistic religions. That they are central to people’s interactions with morality, mortality and reflections of a higher power is evident.

Yes - the slave mother hadeeth isn't the same type of sign - the word is used in multiple contexts. The rest, i gather, is more of a personal opinion than anything else. I find that others who also believe in their signs are not altogether that interesting since I give these other world views less credence than I do to Islam.

 

You speak of a ‘foreshadow’. Just how does this ongoing human interaction foreshadow the end? Could humans reach a point of tyranny, poverty and collapse of social justice that slavery is the norm and most women’s wombs bring forth young masters? Could be. Would this mean the end of the world? Maybe. However, a few more countries gaining nuclear weapons and serious fights over oil and water are more ominous and could bring about a speedier end to humanity.

It is not the ongoing human interaction that foreshadows the end times but the quality of that human interaction. In Islam we are told that as the end times approach the human condition regresses until at the very end it is at its lowest possible level and the whole entity is done away with. The signs that were posted in another thread are the guideposts along that path of regression and should serve as a foreshadowing of the end times approaching to those who take heed.

 

In my belief, even in the worst scenarios that we humans, with our limitations imagine, the end as spelled out in the Quran is only knowledgeable to God and will happen at his whim as shown by these few verses among many others

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

 

No one is picking and choosing anything. You've never even heard of these ahadeeth and yet you find it 'pathetic' that they are discussed? Matters of significance, relations and reference are important when something is vague.

I may have been mistaken but implicit in your original post was a dismissal of those signs in Hadeeth as opposed to those in the Quran. That is the picking and choosing I was talking about. But of course I may be mistaken in that conclusion. NO! I don't find the discussion of ahadeeth pathetic in any way - as I said I find the buffet style Islam puzzling and pathetic. By all means let's get a discussion and elucidation going about those hadeeths but you will have to admit that wasn't the tone and content of your peice. The tone and content was of one vapidly waving away the relevance of these hadeeths.

 

I choose to discuss a list that claims one of the signs of the hour is that “Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business†(Ahmad) (#60) and you can choose to abstain.

By all means let's discuss it - but a discussion necessarily involves some call for other's input - your piece struck me more as a high handed editorial. I don't quite get your point with regard to the hadeeth referenced above. For me there is one course of action: 1- Is the hadeeth sound and authentic, 2- Accept it as the implicit truth of Allah if sound and authentic, 3- Find out its meaning as fully as possible in order to gain a better understanding of the religion.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Castro:

^ LOL. That's on topic.

 

But seriously, sudden is, by definition, without warning. Check it

out

. So having warnings and being sudden are a contradiction in terms. But this may not necessarily be applicable to the day of judgement. Just knowing that it is coming is an implicit warning. People are often said to have died "suddenly" (in Arabic, "mowt-al-qhafla") when it has been known from the begining of time that life can only lead to death. So it's the sudden in that context, perhaps, that the Quran tells us about the day of judgement. You know it's coming but when it does, it is sudden.

I agree and I disagree. Yes to the latter point - everyone knows that at some point each of them will die but even those engaged in high risk activities(ie. being a soldier in Iraq) apparently die suddenly as perceived by their loved ones(this admittedly gleaned from the media accounts). I disagree in this sense: What if you missed the warnings? Is the consequent action sudden then to you? Of course it is even though there were warnings. At the end of the day - the suddenness of an event rests on your perspective and your ability to pick up on any warning signs.

 

For a good illustration of the latter I am reminded of the great early 20th century investor Bernard Baruch. As the market was rocketing up in 1929 - Baruch received a stock tip from his shoeshine boy and to him that was the warning sign of a peak and he sold out his stock positions near the top just before the Great Crash of October, 1929. To many others that crash was sudden but to Bernard Baruch there were ample warning signs.

[Naden]

The Point,

 

Not understanding someone’s viewpoint doesn’t give you the right to question their intentions. This hasty vanguard-of-the-faith bunk is uninspiring to say the least. Don’t concern yourself with my tone and delivery and if you have anything of substance that you can add to the discussion, by all means, do so. If the whole thing is ‘uninteresting’ or you find the post to be vapid, ‘high-handed’ editorializing, you always have the option of ignoring it.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by naden:

The Point,

 

Not understanding someone’s viewpoint doesn’t give you the right to question their intentions. This hasty vanguard-of-the-faith bunk is uninspiring to say the least. Don’t concern yourself with my tone and delivery and if you have anything of substance that you can add to the discussion, by all means, do so. If the whole thing is ‘uninteresting’ or you find the post to be vapid, ‘high-handed’ editorializing, you always have the option of ignoring it.

I'm not sure that I have questioned your intentions. What I have definitely questioned was the point in your original post. And since you are an intelligent and articulate poster(from the sum total of your posts) I thought I would press you on the point of the original post. I concerned myself with your tone and content only to the extent that it contradicts your earlier stated goal of discussion - it seems(to me at least) that your original post didn't invite discussion. As to what I wrote having substance - I feel that it does.

 

I said I find end times similarities with other cultures/creeds uninteresting not your whole post. As to vapid and high-handed - I will admit that was my impression of the the original post and yes, you are right I could simply choose to ignore it. But I also have the option of commenting on it as such provided that it is not gratuitously offensive. And my only point in commenting on it, at least initially, was to ask - Naden, what are you driving at? And of course, you can choose not to respond and we can leave it off there. No offense.

[Castro]

^ Can you two kiss and make up already and get on with the discussion. I too would like to see where this is going. Right now, it has barely left the gate.

[Naden]

ThePoint,

 

No harm, no foul.

 

Castro,

 

If I find out any information on the tribe of Daus and their significance, I'll be sure to share.