In Slave Mothers and Swinging Buttocks

[Naden]

In slave mothers and swinging buttocks, we will find the end of the world. How? I will tell you in a bit.

 

A few days ago, an earthquake shook the ground under the people of Indonesia. In a few horrific moments, thousands were crushed under giant mortars, some buried alive, others missing and may never be found. It was the images of children sitting on the rubble or their small bodies dragged from collapsed building that sickened me the most. Like with all children caught in man or nature made catastrophes, my initial thoughts are usually: Is this brutal end all that was destined for them? Where is the justice?

 

As a follower of an Abrahamic doctrine, I believe that there will be justice. I see some justice in the world, not much for the little man, but greater justice will be done. I hope. A friend e-mailed me shortly after images of the earthquake appeared on TV; she complained of how cheap we, Muslims, are towards each other. She added contacts for her favourite Muslim charity and urged me gently (read: guilt-tripped :mad: ) to donate. Towards the end of her message, she wondered rather depressingly if the end of the world was near.

 

I wasn’t sure if she meant that the earthquake or our collective stingy ways would bring about the end, but this quake and her words reminded me of a thread opened in another subforum about the ‘minor’ and ‘major’ signs of the hour of reckoning, the moment that ends this world and ushers the next. With a quick exam of 'signs' in this Old Thread's list, it seemed its contents could be divided into:

 

1. A series of events that will materialize before the hour.

 

They’re not in any specific order and no explanations for their particular presence in exclusion of others. Some are simply pedestrian such as men wearing silk garments, others are frightening such as the appearance of 30 dajjals. Despite reading of their goal, I don’t really know what a dajjal is and why only 30 and not 40 thousand or 50 million. I gather they will be instruments in the clearing of the dead of their graves or maybe even the capture of living ones as they scurry around in horror . Who knows?

 

2. A number of sins that presumably usher the end of the world.

 

The overwhelming sense in these is that humans, through their relentless sin, will somehow trigger the end. From the list, I was able to draw some crude groupings of ‘signs’ that are surprisingly similar to major no-nos in Islam: fahishat such as illegal intercourse (3, 4, 5, 15), children/offspring that are insolent and unkind (11, 12, 22, 63), alcohol consumption, homosexuality (6, 59), bearing false witness, telling lies, deceiving (21, 57, 42), gender confusion (67, 32), greed, miserliness, not paying alms (16, 17, 18, 19, 42, 43), tyranny of rulers (4, 8, 29, 30, 31).

 

These ‘signs’ are a curiosity. Apart from the few taken from the Quran which I accept wholly, the remainder make me wonder how much they overlap with humanity’s cumulative interaction with their pending mortality. Our mortality, in part, guides us to question the origin of things; no beginning is understood, imagined or studied without a questioning of the end. For a brief period, I was involved in brain research and apoptosis. Brain cells in a sample of patients with neurodegenerative disease simply died without a complete understanding of the mechanism. It’s been some years since then and some of the mystery has been uncovered but it’s always held my curiosity.

 

Eschatology. Ancient Egyptians were just as interested in death and what came after as they buried their own with food, weapons and gold. They may have been instinctively wondering if there is life after death; thus, they prepared their dead for immortality by burying them with provisions. Other cultures approached Eschatology in a different manner. Buddhists believed Buddha’s moral teachings would be replaced with vice such as widespread murder, greed, ill-will, and adultery (sound familiar? ). This, they believe, would trigger the arrival of a new Buddha named Maitreya who would revive the moral code of conduct in a cycle of destruction and creation.

 

Similarly, Hindus believe that the end would be ushered by degradation and widespread conceit, violence and poverty. Their eschatology predicts the appearance of a leader to reverse degradation and bring virtue once more. In monotheistic faiths, the end would initiate a time of God’s wrath, and judgment as is believed in Islam. The "Consistent Eschatology" of Johannes Weiss and Albert Schweitzer is an interesting read for the inclined.

 

I read about the hour in the Quran every so often. From what I can deduce, a few signs are given such as: the possible appearance or involvement of Ya’JOJ and Ma’JOJ, the blowing of a horn & smoke, and the collapse of the earth/sky. The last two are understandable and could be imagined, sort of, but the brothers JOJ sound damn scary, perhaps even more chilling than the alleged dajjals :eek: .

 

Aside from these Quranic signs, I have always firmly believed that all knowledge of the ‘hour’ such as the timing and mechanism are a mystery only known to God and that the prophet knew as much as he delivered in the message as seen in Sura 7, Verse 187. I would normally reference a verse but this I have to spell out:

 

“They ask you about the hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know†(Shakir translation).

 

These verses (6:31, 10:45, 12: 107, 16:77, 20:15, 22:55, 33:63 and 43:66) are by no means exhaustive but they all point to the same gist: the knowledge of the hour is in the ghaib (unseen) to which only God is privy AND it will be sudden. The words (بَغتةً and كَلَمح٠البَصَر) are defined as sudden/ unexpected and blink of an eye respectively.

 

For me, ‘sudden’ precludes any warnings. I’ve read a little about signs outside of those in the Quran and they claim the timing of the end may be unseen but the signs are there. I’ve also read that temporal estimates for man and God differ, so perhaps the ‘sudden’ repeated in these verses actually means across the entire time of creation. I don’t know. I’m a simple girl, when I hear ‘sudden’, I believe it to be sudden. I’ve also read elsewhere that these minor and major signs will be harrowing only for disbelievers, but believers will safely bypass them. It will remain a mystery.

 

So what do slave mothers and swinging buttocks have to do with the final hour? These 2 ahadith speak not of the ‘time’ but ‘signs’ or ‘portents’ of the hour.

 

Book 2, Number 47. Narrated Abu Huraira “………..Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents. 1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master…..â€

 

It is puzzling for conditions to be set for the hour despite God clearly pointing to its sudden and unseen nature. It is also puzzling because slave women as sexual property have always given birth to the children of their masters who would at times inherit them along with cattle and other wealth. These children owned their mothers from the ancient times to the middle ages to the new world. If anything, the world is moving away from the normalization of human slavery in all its forms.

 

I gather if true, this sign/portent simply means it is checked off of a list of things to happen before the end. Or perhaps it is metaphoric for a coming time when poverty would be so widespread, slavery would become the norm again. Who knows? If so, what then in the repertoire of human experience is not a sign of the hour?

 

Book 88, Number 232. Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established till the buttocks of the women of the tribe of Daus move while going round Dhi-al-Khalasa."

 

This ‘sign’ struck me as odd. Dhi-al-Khalasa was an idol of a tribe called Daus and they moved around it in worship. I’m not certain what has become of the tribe of Daus. Some research is in order. I’m curious if it is a metaphor for a return to idol worship. Perhaps. I’m really baffled by the significance of the ‘buttocks’ of these women. Why not their shoulders? Heads? Arms? Why women alone? From what I understand, both men and women worshipped idols.

 

No doubt that people, no matter their ideology, are unwavering in their quest for knowledge about the end, theirs or the world’s. There are more questions than answers but solace in the knowledge that one is just as immersed in darkness as the rest of humanity.

[Johnny B]

Naden, Self-reflection and balanced positive questioning of what one believes are fair and a badly needed quality, especially in contrast to the prevailing belief system on SOL where principles such as self-criticizing or critical thinking are all but unheard of.

 

Without self-flagellation or showing a need to belittle other belief systems you’ve naturally questioned the correlation between the buttocks of the slave women and the end of the world, all done in the face of a murderous forces that would destroy all one holds dear simply because it isn’t appropriate to think the way you think

Kudos Naden, with this you sure would’ve made to the list of SOL intelligentsia . that is if such a list exists

 

Now to understand and answer that question, i’ve to engage it on both a empathetic and critical level, and never psychologize or dismiss it as some sort of “death cult prophecy†unworthy of any sort of engagement.

 

Thought we can’t prove that life and this Universe are created, we’re in for the assumption that Death replaces Life and the Universe will be wrapped , without further questioning, we try to answer the entailing question of “When will that take place?†, and since your faith doesn’t answer that question even with an approximate time span, you’re given hints in the form of other signs .

Obviously empathetic enough , i’d agree with the notion of the answerer being equally as ignorant as the questioner, and swallow the non sequitur but humanly human assumption of the exciting portents of Female slaves and their children, ( I’ve yet to see a Camel giving birth ), but to be slightly critical , I’d reject the portent of the Slave woman giving birth to her Master ,her buttocks or any other portent because it floors the previous statement namely the answerer being equally as ignorant as the questioner. And if we solve the know-how of the answerer in the elementary equation like this :

 

A = the unknown time , 10 = The Slave women giving birth to her Master, 15 = the moving buttocks of the Dausis.

 

A + 10 = 15;

15 – 10 = A ;

A = 5;

 

Then it contradicts the Quran where it says no one else knows the time but the Deity , unless The answerer is somehow exchanged with the Deity itself.

 

Now , Does the answerer knew more than he wanted to share , but gave some hints to help the questioner find out for himself or Does the answerer fantasize ?

 

You see, either way I can’t seem to answer your question without questioning your basic assumption and that you wouldn’t like

 

Say, Why do think that the Universe will be wrapped in the first place ?

[Castro]

^ Because it will be time for a wrap.

 

naden, have you seen the Arabic text of that Buhkari hadeeth (88/232)? I'm curious what "buttocks" was translated from. A most peculiar hadeeth indeed but I suspect your "metaphor for a return to idol worship" guess is what it is.

[Naden]

JB

 

Thanks .

 

I agree with the notion as well that the end of times as expressed in the revelation is unknown. Personally, I don't think it matters much. What is important for humans is to live, grow, create, and explore as much of their world as possible. Who cares about the end? I worry that a philosophy that finds any enjoyment of life and living in the present disdainful is the force behind the emphasis on 'signs' and what not.

 

The signs or portents attached to the 'only God has knowledge of the unseen and the hour' are non-sequitors in my opinion as well. I Like the clever equation .

 

What I find fascinating is how similar these 'signs' are to other ideologies' predictors of doomsday. To me, our own analysis of the 'end' of times is closely related to what we perceive to be the end of man himself, and a curious assumption that he is an instrument of that end through sins although for a student of the Quran like myself, I understand the end to be sudden and at the discretion of God. Our collective histories (unconscious) point in roughly the same direction with an underlying theme of life-death or creation-destruction cycle.

 

I don't believe the prophet knew anymore than is presented in the Quran and I am somewhat disappointed by how nonsensical and laughable some of these signs are. In the revelation, no hints or fantasies are necessary as they throw followers into darkness.

 

You see, either way I can’t seem to answer your question without questioning your basic assumption and that you wouldn’t like

 

You can question anything you want, friend, but I am hoping as much as possible through study and questioning to strip my faith out of the nonsensical and absurd.

 

Say, Why do think that the Universe will be wrapped in the first place ?

 

Your guess is as good as mine. Luckily, despite my belief and practice, I don't usually care about the end or the hour or its signs or camels, pregnant slaves or swinging butts. I figure it won't happen in my lifetime and if it does, I will be in the company of billions scurrying left and right. What I do think about very rarely is the billions who believe what I don't believe? Who will be right? What if I am not? I will have to find an equally irate Jewish lawyer to get my zakat money back .

 

Castro

 

I don't know what the Arabic text is but I am not so concerned with the choice of body part. I'm curious about this particular ritual, this particual tribe and their idol. Why are they worth mentioning? Was it a type of tribe where only women moved around the idol? What happened to that tribe now?

 

Edit

 

Here is the hadith:

حدثنا †â€Ø£Ø¨Ùˆ اليمان †â€Ø£Ø®Ø¨Ø±Ù†Ø§ †â€Ø´Ø¹ÙŠØ¨ †â€Ø¹Ù† †â€Ø§Ù„زهري †â€Ù‚ال قال †â€Ø³Ø¹ÙŠØ¯ بن المسيب †â€Ø£Ø®Ø¨Ø±Ù†ÙŠ †â€Ø£Ø¨Ùˆ هريرة †â€Ø±Ø¶ÙŠ الله عنه â€

â€Ø£Ù† رسول الله †â€ØµÙ„Ù‰ الله عليه وسلم †â€Ù‚ال †â€Ù„ا تقوم الساعة حتى تضطرب أليات نساء †â€Ø¯ÙˆØ³ †â€Ø¹Ù„Ù‰ ذي الخلصة وذو الخلصة طاغية †â€Ø¯ÙˆØ³ †â€Ø§Ù„تي كانوا يعبدون ÙÙŠ الجاهلية â€

 

Source

[Castro]

حتى تضطرب أليات ?

 

I can't say I've ever come across that term in Arabic. naden, just why do you wonder about these things? Is this not an authentic hadeeth? Do you consider any of them to be authentic? If not, what does it matter if they shake a butt or shake a leg? I'm curious, walaal, that you're curious so don't get me wrong. As much as I find this hadeeth strange and out of place, I'm sure there's a legitimate historical (and meaningful) context in which it was narrated.

[Naden]

Castro,

 

My only answer would be why not wonder about these things? I don't have any seditious intentions and islam is supposed to be a religion of reasoning and thought. When questions about faith or belief arise, I try to approach it with an open mind. I think it is the least that I could do as it is undoubtedly one of the strongest influences in my outlook on life. As for ahadeeth and their authenticity, it is not so important. I don't think this one is strange or out of place; it is perhaps mysterious but it fits with the time and place of idol worship. It is just interesting to me how the link between so many things could be made to the final hour as revealed in the Quran.

[Castro]

^ I hear ya. Questioning is great but only if one is willing to dedicate to it as much time as it deserves.

 

So what did you find out about the Daus tribe?

 

P.S. Most people, when it comes to religion, practice the "don't tell me, I'd rather not know" methodology.

[Cara.]

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." -- On an Assyrian clay tablet, circa 2800 BC.

 

Perspective?

[Castro]

Those Assyrians, I tell ya. They sure were wise.

 

Cara, it's not that we never were wise but just that religions try to guide us to our creator. So wisdom we've had all along but just not enough to find our way to the creator on our own.

 

naden sure does look at things from a different angle than I do. I find her queries to be most fascinating. I can't say I can come up with the same stuff.

[Socod_badne]

Poor avuncular (wannabe actually ) Castro completely missed impish Cara's veiled insinuation.

 

 

Dear Castro, crafty Cara wasn't so much highlighting Assyrian's timeless wisdom as she was accusing the non-divine nature of the foundational documents of Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. Of course done surreptitiously and in so many words. SO characteristic and expected of the Godless (<--said with tongue in cheek ).

 

Like for instance, the Godless ones will ask how come the flood story and Noah's ark, featured in all 3 monotheistic faiths, are mentioned in the older Epic of Gilgomesh. It goes without saying that this is bogus and immaterial. What's more it's Arguementum Ad: Consequentiam, Hominem, Ignorantiam, Metum, Odium, Misericordiam, Superbium... throw in for good measure the fallacy of Texas Sharpshooter... I tell you these people have no scrupulous, no panache and certainly unversed in topics they visit with their unwantd tongues.

 

 

With regard to Naden, I think she's going little soft in the head. I have no idea what she's babbling about. Greatly dispointed reading the title of the thread. I was expecting after reading, shacking booty, a delve into exotic primative african folk lores, fertility rites, catatonic dances involving lots of wiggling booties and the works but instead she, the much exalted one, lowers my spirits with doomsday scare shid. What's the matter with you woman?! Thanks for killing my brief levity. :mad:

[Castro]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Poor avuncular (wannabe actually

)

Castro

completely missed impish

Cara's

veiled insinuation.

It's not so much missing it as not wanting to go there. And who said the Assyrians didn't receive a prophet of their own?

 

P.S. Shouldn't this discussion be in the Islam section?

[Cara.]

SB, you just kill yourself don't ya?

 

Anyway, I wasn't thinking about no mythic arks or ancient Sumerian legends (obviously they can be understood within the Islamic framework as message that got garbled in the transmission or something). My point was that mankind has been lamenting the end of the good old days and the imminent demise of the World As We Know It for eons. Every adult generation considers itself to be the last, and every disaster natural or manmade is seen as particularly ominous for those who live through it. It's actually an interesting study of human psychology.

[Naden]

Cara

 

Assyrian, huh? Don't know much about their end of times tablets but they sound fascinating. I look forward to reading more. I find it interesting that we humans think the end of times would be a consequence of our actions.

 

Castro

 

Google has little information on the tribe of Daus but apparently they were based somewhere in Yemen and they are famous for some poets. I've decided to abandon the no-touch policy to religion a few moons ago .

 

Socod Badne

 

You must be channeling the Niiko thread in the General subform, dude . And I went through all that trouble pushing the philosophy of boom, boom, boom. :mad: All this scary doomsday 'shidh' is fun to talk about. There are so many people I'd like to see on the other side starting with the guy who tripped me in 2nd grade and made my knee lose a chunk of flesh. Part of my wish in the afterlife after all the hoopla settles is to have a hut in a beach somewhere, sipping tequila, and having people line-up outside to apologize to me. Want to take about African booty shaking , open your own thread, brother-man, and I will bring my drums .

[Castro]

Cara, so you didn't have the point SB wasn't talking about. That's great coz frankly, if you did, I have completely missed it and was too embarassed to admit .

 

Originally posted by naden:

Part of my wish in the afterlife after all the hoopla settles is to have a hut in a beach somewhere, sipping tequila, and having people line-up outside to apologize to me.

Classic.

[Socod_badne]

Cara,

 

Do I want to kill myself? No, absolutely not. I love me too much to even contemplate doing such thing. And what kinda question is that? What's gotten into you :confused:

 

Oh must be the smoke up in the air, internet sand in our eyes before your egregious denial and backtracking. That's ok, we both know what you meant. The silver lining in all of this is Castro can now save face.

 

 

Naden,

 

You're weird gal! For thinking discourse about apocalyptic end of the world is FUN. I'm trying my hardest to see above and beyond the daily doom and gloom. Whatever sails your boat sis!

 

About starting african butt waggling topic, something to chew on. Of more pressing curiosity is these anecdotal accounts I heard about Somali girls sneaking out to dance with boys in pitch dark, save for the moon light, Somali country side. I asked my Ayeeyo and she served me scathing, acerbic aflagaado. Got smacked in the face when I put the same question to 1 of my habos. Now I'm mortified to approach ANY older somali woman. A bit of quandry I find myself in.