On Doomed Queens and Dumb Women

[Naden]

^Nice going Naden.

"eye has not seen...ear has not heard...". It is unthinkable what will be there. Even our best thoughts are short. Laakini, being an obedient wife won't get me there, that much I know for sure.

Thanks, Bishy. It is indeed a mystery but with hope, rewarding to all.

 

Indeed, these are your own thoughts, which like so many of your thoughts, show your extreme limitations of what you’re talking about. ......but the way forward from such ignorance is not to engage in nonsensical arguments, rather, you should ask those whom Allah (swt) granted knowledge of these matters.

S.O.S, Allah will surely grant knowledge to those who seek it.

 

Some of us have been relishing watching sapient Naden's amazonian endeavors. Undoubtedly a sight to behold. So you can get lost Kheyr, ok? No need for your cheerleading, unless you're wearing revealing outfit.

Socod Badne, a scary mix of titillating and nauseating . Must. Have. Photos. For. Ebay.

 

No one is here to jeopordize their salvation for a chance to win a forum argument

No doubt, good Fidel.

[S.O.S]

Fidel "Kubo-nasdheer" Castro writes:

 

What, then, do you have time for SOS?

Castro,

 

I have time for that, which given my finite abilities and resources, allows me to effectively and beneficently (for myself as well as for others) can cover within my time constraint. Another reason is that a topic with such importance and broad reach of scope, it cannot be done justice by causally mentioning it in a wholly undedicated thread. Perhaps we could discuss it in some of the e-Nuri archives, but not yet here.

 

Naden writes:

 

S.O.S, Allah will surely grant knowledge to those who seek it.

Naden,

 

What is that knowledge, and where do you seek it? I have randomly selected a few ahadeeths for your benft, and I sincerely hope that you’ll take the time to reflect upon before you post anything else again!

 

Al-Mughirah (ra) related from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that he said: "Ascribing false reports to me is not like ascribing false reports to anyone else. Whosoever intentionally tells a lie against me, then let him accede in Hellfire." Also on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra) he (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Whoever intentionally tells a lie against me, then let him accede in Hellfire." (Bukhari)

 

Jabir (ra) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "There are two kind of knowledge. The first kind resides in the heart and that is the usefull knowledge (for his owner), and the second one is at the tongue (with no roots at one’s heart) and that is the evidence of Allah against the son of Adam." (Ad-Darimy)

 

Ka’b Ibn Malik (ra) also reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Whoever learns some knowledge in order to compete with the scholars or to argue with foolish (ignorant people) and to gain people’s admiration (money, fame, etc.), Allah will cause him to enter the Hellfire." At-Tirmidy). Abu Hurairah (ra) also narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "If anyone leans some knowledge which should be learned for the sake of Allah, the Exalted, i.e. learning it just for the purpose of acquiring worldly advantages, he will not experience the odour of Paradise." (Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah)

 

Knowledge in Islam has a special place and meaning. Therefore, to seek knowledge is worship (ibadah) and like any other ibadah, it has rules and conditions. For that reason, Allah grants (beneficial) knowledge to those who fulfil the conditions with the best of purity and intentions. Mu’awiyah (ra) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "If Allah wants to do good to a person (khayr), He makes him a canonist of religion." (Bukhari and Muslim).

 

Thus Naden, to be truly knowledgeable in the religion of Allah, is not a matter of "whoever seeks it will be granted", contrary, it’s only granted to those whom Allah has favoured (fadl) above others (btw, do you know the meaning of "fadl" with respect to men-men, women-women, men-women, nation-nation and creation-creation relations?). abu Umamah Al-Bahily (ra) reported that (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "The merit of the scholar is above the worshiper, it is similar to my merit above the lowest one among you. Verily, Allah, His angels and the people of the heaven and earth, even the ant in its hole and even the whale send their blessings to those who teach people righteous deeds." (At-Tirmidy)

 

I hope I’ve got your attention now and that you’re asking yourself; but why, why, why? Why we should dismiss you as nonsensical idle women who’s way over her head, and keep our great scholars of Islam in such a high esteem (to have to explain to you this is a giveaway), let’s share another perspective on the position of scholars in Islam. It’s easy Naden, to resort to "they have not answered my questions" tactic to satisfy your ignorance whenever you fail to understand a religious meaning of an aspect, but one should resist lecturing others on your genius and how you’ve come to a superior understanding of religious matters after more than 1400 years of failed scholars, and all by the "suck of your thumbs"!

 

Allah (swt) says in His glorious Qur’an:

 

"Allah bears witness that none has the right to be worshipped but He (لاَ Ø¥Ùلَـهَ Ø¥Ùلاَّ Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ), and the angels, and those having knowledge (Ø£ÙوْلÙواْ الْعÙلْمÙ) (also bear witness to this); (He always) maintains His creation in Justice. None has the right to be worshipped but He (لاَ Ø¥Ùلَـهَ Ø¥Ùلاَّ Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (Qur’an, 3:18)

 

In his "Miftaah Daaris-Sa’aadah", Ibn Al-Qayyim commented on that verse by listing the following points:

 

 

1. Allah chose the people of knowledge (Ø£ÙوْلÙواْ الْعÙلْمÙ) to bear witness to His Oneness (Tawheed) over and above the rest of His creation.

 

2. Allah honoured the people of knowledge by mentioning their testimony along with His testimony.

 

3. He raised high the status of the scholars by associating their testimony with the testimony of the angels.

 

4. This verse bears witness to the superiority of those who possess knowledge. Allah does not make any of His creation bear witness except the upright amongst them.

There is a well-known narration from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said: "The upright in every generation will carry this knowledge, rejecting the distortions of the extremists, the false claims of the liars, and the (false) interpretations of the ignorant." (hasan)

 

5. Allah, the One free from all defects. Himself bears witness to His Oneness, and He is the greatest of witnesses. Then He chose from His creation the angels and the scholars - this is sufficient to show their excellence.

 

6. Allah made the scholars bear witness with the greatest and the most excellent testimony and that is, " لاَ Ø¥Ùلَـهَ Ø¥Ùلاَّ Ù‡ÙÙˆ", Allah, the One free of all defects and the Most High, does not bear witness except to matters of great importance and only the greatest from Allah's creation bear witness to this.

 

7. Allah made the testimony of the people of knowledge a proof against the rejecters. Thus they are its proofs and its signs, indicating His Oneness (Tawheed).

 

8. Allah, the Most High, used a single verb (Ø´ÙŽÙ‡Ùدَ) to refer to His testimony and the testimony of the angels and the scholars. He did not use an additional verb for their testimony; thus he connected their testimony to His. This shows the strong link between their testimony and Allah's testimony, as if He himself bore witness to His Oneness upon their tongues and made them utter this testimony.

 

9. Allah, the One free from all defects, made the scholars fulfil His right (لاَ Ø¥Ùلَـهَ Ø¥Ùلاَّ Ù‡ÙÙˆ) through this testimony and if they fulfil it, then they have fulfilled and established this right of Allah upon them. Then it is obligatory upon mankind to accept this testimony which is the means to reach happiness in this life and in their final return (to Allah). Whosoever takes this guidance from the scholars and accepts this truth because of their testimony, then for the scholars there is a reward equal to them. And none knows the value of this reward but Allah.

 

Such was Luqman’s advice to his son, as reported by Abu Umamah (ra) that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Verily, Luqman said to his son, ‘O son! You should keep company with scholars and listen to the speech of wise people; for assuredly Allah enlightens the dead heart with the brightness of wisdom as He revives the unfruitful land with rains’." The same Abu Umamah (ra) also narrated that the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him said: "There are three persons whom no one would underestimate but a hypocrite: He who has become grey-heared in Islam, he who is pundit, and a just imam." (both compiled by At-Tabarany)

 

w/c.

[xiinfaniin]

Naden, I take no issue with asking questions no matter how propping they are. I am not offended at all. Indeed, for the most part, I enjoyed this discussion. It was promising and had all the ingredients in it for coming in to a full bud, so to speak. You were civil and intelligent, and you meant good. But you have erred gravely when you resorted to expire those two hadiths simply because you couldn’t reconcile them with your Islamic principle. I asked you two questions to clear things up. You dodged and evaded. It’s either one of two then; you don’t understand the process in which these hadiths made to the Bukhari collection in the first place, and hence you take it lightly, or worse yet you incorrectly think it is in your capacity as a mujtahid to revise the Sunnah when you fail to understand it. With all fairness I was not trying to dismiss you as inconsequential. But I strongly believe that approach of yours is wrong. It deems your whole effort incredible. If you are familiar with the rules of Isnaad, as you claim you are, how could you label authenticated hadiths ‘dangerous’ and ‘contrary’ to the very message they intended to reinforce?

 

You see, walaal, there is an attractive quality in being defiant. At times, it is worthy the praise. But when it comes to religion and its complex matters daring may not be the best approach to take. Perhaps one may need to sit on his/her eggs a bit longer before starting to count. A muhtahidah you may be, but you are not handling the second source of your deen as carefully as you could. And one last thing yaa naden, if the status quo means alerting caution against speedy invalidation of an authenticated hadith, I will sure defend it like a hell. Join me my good sister. It is a worthy cause.

 

SOS, Kheyr, Castro, JB, and all other participants lets thank our sister her thought- provoking thread. And lets all (minus JB ) hope that she solidifies her religion and succeeds to clear all the doubts about these hadiths.

[Naden]

^ I understood your objections, Xiin, and respect your view on due process when examining any prophetic tradition. And I am aware of how these two ahadith made it into the collection. For me, faith in something unseen is a monumental spiritual challenge and belief in the prophet's (csw) revelation (Quran) is a conscious and deliberate choice. Perhaps a significant difference in your view and mine is that I treat all that is not divinely protected with suspicion. Calling these ahadith dangerous is generous on my part as I believe they are opposed to a message that needs not reinforcement. I could be mistaken on every front as only time and greater study will tell but I am not committed to this view out of stubborn ignorance. I believe we do justice to knowledge when we truly ponder it. I am also not interested in rebelling against an establishment; faith and religious practice are an intensely private affair. I accept that you think my approach and entire view are incorrect but nowhere did I suggest that the sunnah and traditions be revised. The mindblowing versions of ahadith and their interpretations would make it nearly impossible.

 

I do agree with you that religious study needs a greater deal of time and deeper reflection. I have found our exchange intensely thought-provoking and thank you for the intelligent and committed responses. And your cautions are well noted and accepted, brother.

[DraGon]

Naden and Good Xiin. good discussion you guys have there and I apprecaited the manners of your engagement minus JB non-sensical blarbing.

 

This is the kinds of discussion we should encourage among the believers, Naden by all means seems to be sincere believer trying to learn and understand her Diin better; just like most of us I just wish those who are not believers to respect our quest for furthering our knowledge by staying away from such discussions.

[Johnny B]

Dragon , something tells me that you´ve alot to thank for the (JB-factor ), respect is granteed .

 

while Xiin & co are busy in meditation praying for Naden, JB walks to Naden n whispers , " i hope you dont have a tail,i´m mastering the new butt-clap." , nice one Naden, hope you miss more episodes

[Naden]

^ :eek: :eek:

 

Naden rushes to her accounting software to draw up a bill wondering whereabouts to send in Sweden. The image of JB's cyber butt-clapping is forever seared into her mind. Only a very expensive hypnotist can induce partial amnesia.

[winnie]

good thread and great discussion. im surprised it lasted this long while remaining respectful.

[Castro]

^ It's only because I wasn't involved. :cool:

[Pi]

^... in one way!

[opportunist]

^^ labada It looks like to me that You Pi is more of a trouble maker than the rest, stop picking on the old man(Castro). which sounds all scary , besides what ever religion that was in discussion seems to be away a several miles away from that so many religions that might have shaped our lives, religiouns and so far

[DigibAc]

the religion anyone of us practices is going to come to him or her by way of someone else so there is always room for errors. among the muslims you find such a wide differences and contradictions.

 

am sure there are groups that can convincingly argue that women and men are equal is all ways.

 

it would be interesting if someone can post here a believe or idea that was widely held by muslims in the past that's considered to be blasphemes now.

 

also, if those two hadiths about women were to be views as lacking, what would that mean for other hadiths found in similar sources?

 

naden, you made the point that some people may gain benefit from perpetuating believe in these hediths; its a fact that powers that be invest greatly to influence the believes people hold and I can see why some may seek to preempt the possibility of a woman gaining authority by claiming that its unislamic. but that claim that ‘special interests’ push certain believes can be put forth regarding any believe.