On Doomed Queens and Dumb Women

[Naden]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

My dear sisters think about this: "What I have forbidden for you, avoid. What I have ordered you [to do], do as much of it as you can........

I don't know, something's not right. The hadith seems innocuous enough but it could also be a clever re-wording of Sura 59, Verse 7 that admonishes believers to follow the prophet's (pbuh) lead in what to take or what to leave behind of township booty. There is no harm in giving deference to a hadith that repeats a quranic admonish or command. Really, what's the harm? It does get hairy when someone paraphrases the first couple of sentences, injects a tailor-made command (similar to the one above against questioning) and then attributes them to the prophet (csw). For the unaware, there is a different version of this that shares those few first sentences of What I have forbidden for you, avoid...., only that one admonishes women against tattoing, removing hair from the eyebrows but not the mustache and beard (my great aunt is so thankful ), and deliberately making space between the teeth for beauty. The uni-brow, buck-tooth look must've been all the rage in 5th century Arabia.

 

All your questions have been asked by people stronger in intellect and more articulate then u, our ulma have answered each and every question

Good for them. All self-respecting Ulema should predict questions from unsuspecting Xaliimos and then answer each and every one of them. They will get full marks for it when the day comes, I'm sure. On my end, I refuse to look like a D student in the afterlife after pulling straight As in this life (kinda, sort of........okay, fine, Bs :mad: ). On a serious note, nations have been destroyed by 'disagreeing' with prophets according to Bukhari's narration. They've disagreed by killing them, oppressing followers and driving them out of their homes. Suras 2,3, 10, 11, 12, 14, 21 and more expound greatly.

 

Ahura

 

I agree as well.

 

 

* Gently reminds JB that although she has 6 fingers on the right hand, this Canadian from the North can easily mistake a peaceful Swede for a baby seal and cyber cull...mwahahahahah *

[xiinfaniin]

^^Tradition of mine has been to leave the scene while I am ahead . It works. It really does.

 

On a more serious note, your thoughts sound very genuine to me. At worst they depict a Muslim soul in search for real and practical answers. One can only appreciate how difficulty it could be when the faith you hold so dear contradicts with what is considered to be universal values of our age, for whose validity one rarely dares to question. The intricacy even grows more complex when the core message of your creed, as your piece implies, is ambushed from within. Given that appreciation, I have not gnashed a single tooth in anger with your thread. If some fellow SOLers resorted to rend own cloth in protest, my garments, as it were, remain untorn. In fact, I have almost praised your courage to share your intellectual defiance against what you supposed to be an apparent prejudice against women folk. Yes I said almost. I know. Now, apart from my sympathy for your struggle to reconcile between particular teachings of your faith and that of your own understanding of its underlying message, my take on this issue is completely different than yours. But before I even begin to discuss let me share with you few observations of mine on your thoughts.

 

First, considering it is the equity (and not an elusive equality as you seem to believe) that which Islam promotes, I suspect it is a neural misfiring of sort to assume that Islam advocates literal gender equality. Islam presents a complete social lifestyle, which, at times, diametrically opposes the prevailing view of this age. It assigns gender-based roles, imposes limitations, and regulates desires. From Islamic perspective, for instance, personal freedom means the ability to elect and do few things, and not all things (I wonder how my good friend JB reacts to this). Provided it comes from an authentic source, divine directives are to be obeyed. Don’t get me wrong as there is nothing bad about asking propping questions as you did. But what held me in reserve is your self-referential style. Religious matters, my good sister, are best understood when put in context. There is a little value, if any, to gain from explaining jurisprudential issues in isolation. Worse still, you can’t be serious in wanting to understand the rationale and the reason behind the legacy you cited, and yet scoff the works of some early and contemporary scholars, and indict their interpretation as a one tainted with self-serving biases! Granted that most Muslim scholars, if not all of them, are male, but it is an idle talk to speculate as to what their intent was in interpreting the way they did. Gender is not an issue in Islam. To inject sexism in the discussions of this nature is pointless.

 

Second, your neural misfiring # 3 is wildly off the mark. To compensate anomalies in your assumptions about Islam and equality you resorted to employ an incomplete ad hoc. The suggestion to retire this authenticated hadith simply because it is inconvenience to your folk (curtailing some personal desires, in the case of the leadership hadith) is faulty snipe that missed its aim. I understand this was a random neural misfiring (with qualifications as well), but it still shows how bothered you are about the legal consequence of that hadith, and how much it irks you—to the extend you are willing to commit it to the flames. That disloyalty of yours to the consensus of learned community of this Ummah is not a good sign. I would advice you work within the parameters of Islamic fiqh. Questions are fine but discard not the source from which potentially your answers could come.

 

Third, the two hadithis you cited are of a different genre. The hadith that regulates the degree to which a Muslim woman can rise to serve her community has a binding legal effect. It enjoys the consensus of Islamic jurisprudential schools (all four of them). It is a settled law, so to say, and any one who dares to challenge is destined to a doomed insurgency. The other hadith that addresses women’s deficiency in reason and religion (wonder who is not deficient in both) has no legal consequence. But if you chose to highlight both and present them as a glaring contradiction to your fundamental understanding of Islam and what it stands for, you are not to blame.Your understading of it is.

 

Intaa ha na joogto. I will come back IA.

[Naden]

^^ I’m glad to hear that both your teeth and clothes remain unharmed . Thank you for the civil and reflective response, and the ‘almost’ praise . I will attempt to reciprocate.

 

I see no difference between ‘equity’ and ‘equality’ in the Quran although semantic differences can be argued by the inclined. There is also nothing elusive about the type of equality that I challenge in my original post: women can be leaders of a muslim nation as no such prohibition exists in the book AND they do not have any deficits in intelligence and religious practice as anyone with a functioning cortex can reason. There is not a valid argument that can be presented for either declaration, just reasons of reasons built on rationalizations. But that is not the only reason that they should be treated with serious suspicion; they contradict basic dictates of the Quran. Not only does the Quran set equality and justice at the core of its principles, it promises it in judgment and reward. This equality is present in Quranic legislations that civilize human relationships with a requisite reminder of duties and rights for men and women. While these legislations are sometimes used to deny women their rights, they can be reasoned through and their spirit of compassion examined in their historical context and applied with much thinking in everyday issues.

 

Provided it comes from an authentic source, divine directives are to be obeyed. Don’t get me wrong as there is nothing bad about asking propping questions as you did. But what held me in reserve is your self-referential style…

 

You may believe this to be a reaction to an ‘apparent prejudice against women folk’ or an insult to feminist sensibilities but I assure you that even a feminist is capable of lucid and rational thought every once in a while. The issue is about equal rights to lead, and not to be considered deficient by mere mortals. Equal rights for half of humanity (half of muslims) is an issue of justice that is worthy of serious examination beyond the we-don’t-know-why-but-get-over-it. Asking probing questions is also not an extracurricular activity, the results of which to be quickly shelved to defer back to old texts done by fallible, albeit learned, individuals. If one can read (a privilege enjoyed by a small fraction of muslims), they have a serious responsibility to learn, read, understand, think, reason, and reflect. Funny how all these verbs are actions demanded of the believer in the Quran.

 

The issues of divine and authentic are prickly. The Quran, we are instructed, is divine and needs not authentication. My belief in its truth is at the center of my faith. Since the ahadith need authentication and are not divine, they are by necessity requiring of more serious ijtihad. It is also a matter of ‘science’ for its gatherers and academics but raises many questions for someone who knows something of the scientific method. More specifically, penning a hadith 6-7 generations (about 240 years) removed from the original source and whose intermediary sources have also long perished is a perilous affair at best. Curiously, since the collectors and academics think of them as a science, they differ. Muslim (a student of Bukhari) discarded some ahadith kept by his teacher and kept some that he discarded. Many ahadith were deemed ‘inauthentic’ or ‘weak’, an interesting euphemism for a fabrication. Some of these inauthentic ones were not thrown out, of course, but left to linger leaving a scent that could come handy for some occasion. Interesting also that Ahmed Ibn Hanbal who came before them had differing ahadith in his musnad, not to neglect sect-based and interpretation differences.

 

This is enough to make the most faithful jittery unless they give their brain an indefinite holiday. And these are authentication issues only and not content ones that require even more critical study. Many would argue that these differences are inevitable but welcomed signs of rigour, that the science has a system of checks and balances that insures an accumulation of wisdom and a reduction in fallacy. I don’t disagree. In theory it should. However, you could try and authenticate sayings till blue in the face but they remain hearsay at best. And since the divine protection of the Quran against human fallibility and interference for whatever reason is not guaranteed, I reserve the right to doubt and criticize. It is not my place as a layperson to dismiss anything but I will not blindly obey a non-divine doctrine that conflicts with a divine one or falls outside of reason and logic. There is a brain attached to this exceptionally attractive face .

 

Worse still, you can’t be serious in wanting to understand the rationale and the reason behind the legacy you cited, and yet scoff the works of some early and contemporary scholars, and indict their interpretation as a one tainted with self-serving biases!

 

You see, I choose to believe that I will stand in front of my maker some day and scholars would have to pardon me if they take a second seat to my faith and afterlife. My objection to the 2 ahadith in the original post is not about an interpretation by a scholar, I can understand them fully in both English and Arabic and have read of their supposed context. It is their truth, ‘authenticity’ if you will. My question was this: how do you view and judge a saying ascribed to the prophet (pbuh) that is in stark contradiction with a principle in the Quran? Questioning my understanding of these principles is legitimate but won’t resolve the contradiction. When the Quran and ahadith differ, you can either believe in one or the other - or forget the whole thing and be anaesthesized by a scholar of choice with a logic-defying reconciliation. Let me note quickly that I did not single out scholars in my original post but spoke of biases that we all have.

 

That disloyalty of yours to the consensus of learned community of this Ummah is not a good sign. I would advice you work within the parameters of Islamic fiqh…….

 

I owe no loyalty to a ‘consensus of learned community’. If they can advance my knowledge of the Quran and religious practices, I do and will continue to seek them. If they offer nothing save for recycled ideas and applications that do not pass the test of my intellect (despite its deficiencies), they will be respectfully ignored.

 

The hadith that regulates the degree to which a Muslim woman can rise to serve her community has a binding legal effect………It is a settled law, so to say, and any one who dares to challenge is destined to a doomed insurgency.

 

I wonder if this doomed insurgency can be unleashed upon one of these jurisprudential schools if they differ about the authenticity of a hadith or maybe it is reserved for the lone believer ‘who dares’ to challenge.

 

The other hadith that addresses women’s deficiency in reason and religion (wonder who is not deficient in both) has no legal consequence……

 

Does that mean its only purpose is to cuss women? I accept that I have much to learn about Islam but refuse to view any questions as pointless or idle. In my original post, I spoke of personal and ideological interests that are protected at all costs, using even religion (or perhaps especially religion). I will admit that these interests propel the questioning. This doesn’t mean that they are illegitimate queries that must pass the approval of scholars.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by naden:

That disloyalty of yours to the consensus of learned community of this Ummah is not a good sign. I would advice you work within the parameters of Islamic fiqh…….

 

I owe no loyalty to a ‘consensus of learned community’. If they can advance my knowledge of the Quran and religious practices, I do and will continue to seek them. If they offer nothing save for recycled ideas and applications that do not pass the test of my intellect (despite its deficiencies), they will be respectfully ignored.

 

A very interesting discourse and much of what you said has a lot of validity. I thought this quote above needed some clarification.

 

I don't think you owe a loyalty to consensus views necessarily. I think what is required is that you give them a sufficiently large wieght as compared to your reason/judgement given their level of knowledge, specialization, sheer time spent on the issue and confirmation by others.

[S.O.S]

a/c naden,

 

you write:

 

"..equal responsibility and accountability of women and men in the Quran leads one to believe that they are considered equal in intellect."

 

The above statement betrays your misconception of basic Islamic principles of responsibility, accountability and equality...which leads me to believe that you're a victim of your politically conditioned prejudices, but I hope that your enquiring nature may help you to become more inceptive to Islam as universal truth, rather than selective borrowing to suit your own personal ends. I say that because I can't see how a pious Muslim(ah) intending to please Allah can borrow a misconceived doctrine into which he/she tries to ridicule and disown inherent elements of Islam which stood firm for over 14 centuries of Islamic sciences of scholarship.

 

Therefore, since you're not looking for answers, can you answer us the following (from your statement):

 

What is the responsibility of men? What is the responsibility of women? And are they the same? If not, is there equality in one responsibility compared to the other, if by nature, the specialisation of the sexes per definition differ?

 

What is accountability? Are we accountable for what we are responsible for, or that which we’re not responsible for? Is there equality in accountability between what we're made responsible for and that which we're made not responsible for?

 

The assignment of final destination is subject to the outcomes of relative accountabilities, which arises from the subjective responsibilities confined upon, placed upon and equipped thereupon for the purpose of achieving that destination.

 

Meaning: all other things being equal, men can earn their place in Paradise outside the house (i.e. working, praying in mosques, building infrastructures for the betterment of society, leading society, jihad in way of Allah, etc.). Women on the other hand, ceteris paribus, can achieve their goal of Paradise by fulfilling their duties at home (hence Allah's encouragement for women to remain in their homes).

 

Per definition to argue otherwise, has in general the per se effect of losing opportunities of pleasing Allah, disintegrating society and a radical number of women missing out their chances of achieving higher positions in where it really matters, the afterlife (and men for that matter).

 

w/s

[Azmaya]

Naden thanks for posting this, I have the same inquiries, but I am afarid our good brothers will label us feminists.

 

Before I get accused of doing the work of Shaytan, let me declare that I am muslim who believes in Islam 300%, and I truly believe this is the only true religion, the best path for women.

 

But I have always had questions, and I blamed my unsatisfication on my lack of knowledge in Islam.

 

Part of me believes that as women, we don't get the better end of the stick even in paradise. Your troubled by that hadith, I have always been troubled by this and the same questions I have I found on islamonline:

 

As-salamu `alaykum. Some traditional Muslims believe that Muslim men will be rewarded with 70 houris specially created for them and two believing women from this life. This is very demeaning and offensive to all women.__A question comes to my mind at this point. Why would God cause jealousy between husband and wife on this earth when He promises to give the same cause of jealousy (multiple wives) in Heaven to one gender (man) as a reward? Who put love, mercy, and affection between the spouses? It is sad to find that in traditional Muslim literature the concept of Heaven is a place specially created for men; there is no equality between men and women.__For men, Heaven is simply an extension of the earth where they established control and dominance over women through legitimizing unsanctioned polygamy and unlimited sex with females. One man's Heaven is a woman's Hell. This is supported by scholars, as a majority of them state that Paradise is a place of fulfillment of desires, and men-being prone to polygamy-will receive this as a reward.__My question is, how is it possible that Allah Almighty will grant the fulfillment of the desires of the male but not of the female-that is, to not share her husband with multiple women?

 

A male martyr will receive 70 wives, but if a female servant of Allah dies for Jihad fisabillillah, she will still be required to share her husband with other wives. This concept is very discouraging and offensive towards Muslim sisters.I personally feel like crying because it seems that no matter how hard I work to please Allah, even go as far as giving up my life for Allah Almighty, my reward will not be equivalent to that of a male servant.

 

 

I found the answers to her question by the sheikh unsatisfactory, and I blame it on my lack of knowledge and I ask for Allah's help but this troubles me as woman. And I agree, no answers would be found here or places such as this, you will be called feminist or what have you:rolleyes:

 

web pageislamonline

[S.O.S]

a/c azmaya,

 

Don't you think it's little premature to feel jealous in this world about a higher world in which no jealousy exist, for the sake of just in case we end up there? Jealousy, my dear sister, is confined only to this world for which Allah created with a particular plan, His Plan. But make no mistake, Allah (swt) committed Himself to please and be pleased with His righteous servants. How, what and why though, my dear sister, no eye has ever seen it, no ear has ever heard it, no heart can contain it and no mind can encompass it.. ..in that, I'm limited to offer you any explanation, but unimaginably pleased will he or she be when they're told to "enter in peace"

 

w/c

[Azmaya]

the jealousy is not what bothers me walaalo, and i know what is in jannah is unimaginable, its the mere mention of the sexual desires, the multiple wives for the men,. what you will say is in jannah what ever the being wishes will be given, but nothing of award is mentioned in the Quran for the woman as it is for the man,

 

Tangible goods such as multiple wives for the man are mentioned, what for the women? Other then what ever she wishes, how come no mention, except your worldly husband. its just distrubs me the mention of sex, multiple wives for men, mens sexual desires again i blame it on lack of knowledge

 

your answers can't be beat islamonline, continue with your debate, I am not involved in it just putting my two cents in.

[S.O.S]

Well, to start with, I didn't bother myself to check out the url you've provided, and maybe that demonstrates my less enthusiastic interest in the subject for the time being, ...you see, everyone has an issue with which they struggle to understand. At present, I have other more pressing issues at heart that I struggle to align and command myself into unreserved surrender, but alhamdu-lil-Allah, as long as I’m aware of my ignorance, no whimsical speculative sentiments will ever satisfy me besides the revealed Word. From there you may state, "we" (as women, which I'm not btw) may not have needed to desire after empty comfort in whimsical speculative sentiments, if "we" (again as women) were offered the same "Tangible goods such as multiple wives for the man are mentioned..." as you put it.

 

To which, I must reply, (1) men were required to wage jihad and forsake their lives in great numbers, with the full knowledge of leaving their wives and children, ...the mentioning of multiple wives has the benefit of motivating men (ultimately a very simple creature) not to listen to their worldly desires and satanic whisperings. (2) Women were not required to give up their lives, and as such, Allah (swt) must have deemed unnecessary to motivate women under such circumstances in the same way as men (Allah knows best).

 

w/c

[Naden]

ThePoint,

 

I appreciate what you’re trying to say. In this particular issue, the interpretations/explanations don’t answer my questions regarding contradictions. They do offer a great deal of entertainment with their rationalizations. No one can dispute the importance of scholarly work in Islamic studies. In my view, the study of Quran and prophetic traditions is greatly facilitated by the work of not only Islamic scholars but scholars of language and history. The Quran, however, is not a book of mysteries with magical codes to crack; the language is difficult but not impossible to grasp and the history and traditions available in a number of critical works.

 

Azmaya,

 

I'm afraid I know little of this hadith and I don’t know anything about huralain or rewards to martyrs beyond what is in the Quran. If in existence, what would concern me more than the 70 wives (wonder why not 60 or 80) is that it gives the prophet (pbuh) knowledge of the unseen (what happens to a martyr when in heaven). In surat al anaam (6:50), we are reminded that he does not but follows what God has revealed. Other verses point to that such as Sura 72, Verses 25-26 and especially in Sura 46, Verse 9 where Mohamed (csw) is told to declare that he knows not where he himself is going and follows only what is revealed to him. The way I understand it, outside of what is revealed about martyrs and huralain in general in the Quran, the prophet (pbuh) would not know where the martyrs are going or whether 70 huralain would be in store for them.

 

It is very possible that 70 wives or mates are awarded martyrs and I couldn’t even guess whether women will have the same or will have to share but I believe that heaven is surely a place of peace for all of us. I also believe, from the Quran, that we will have our justice from God and will not be mistreated. Other than that, the whole 70 mates business seems awfully crowded to me and could turn promised hedonism to domestic misery. Have you ever seen people who come from super large families? They have a great deal in common and a life of peace is not one of them. Personally, I wouldn’t want all those people invading my space and breathing my oxygen. A single hottie who’s nauseatingly handsome and does as he's told is all I need .

[S.O.S]

The way I understand it, outside of what is revealed about martyrs and huralain in general in the Quran, the prophet (pbuh) would not know where the martyrs are going or whether 70 huralain would be in store for them.

Naden,

Are you saying except for the Qur'an, everything else our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) tell us about (in hadiths about the afterlife) is false, because he has no other revelation outside the Qur'an?

 

You failed to answer my previous questions, can you atleast answer this one?

[Johnny B]

No matter how you turn and twist it , Women are beeing demanded of blinding to the obvious

abrusdity for the sake of pleasing a great deity and sweetly playing an intellectually dummy role, that is imposed on them by men, hence pleasing Men,

or risk beeing accused of selfishness,

jealousy and gender-awareness, and deficiency in what not, and worst of all, women are accused of

beeing a burden on Men, while Men are beeing protrayed as the 'super gender' that sacrifices most and thus qualifies solely for the weird reward of having many of the opposite sex and at their best ages.

this might sound 'normal' and acceptable to the meek and weak women/girls , but not to the

dignified sel-respecting sharp women/girls, that it comes off as a plain insult is an understatement.

 

Actually this kind of wicked view held by many morally corrupt Mullahs leads one into the absurd

conclusion that Women are not just as formidable and worthy fellow human beeings of equal rights,but a 'Prize' for the Mullahs ( who might kill as many human beeings as possible ) to win the superstitious contest of pleasing an Omniscient,Omnipotent and and compationate Deity that demands the killing and harming other human beeings .

 

I can´t help but wonder how my good freind Xiin (single-teethed rodent) could walk awy with the

ice-lolly after paying a fake Canadian dollar, not only did he walk away with an unforgiveable

contradiction of own class, but he left behind a flat electroencephalogram that can´t gnaw neither

properly nor on a level. Before we take the single-teethed rodent to the dentist , let us toss a life-boat for brother SOS and save him from sinking in his Reductio.

 

 

Originally posted by S.O.S:

a/c naden,

you write:

 

"..equal responsibility and accountability of women and men in the Quran leads one to believe that they are considered equal in intellect."

The above statement betrays your misconception of basic Islamic principles of responsibility,

accountability and equality...which leads me to believe that you're a victim of your politically

conditioned prejudices, but I hope that your enquiring nature may help you to become more inceptive to Islam as universal truth, rather than selective borrowing to suit your own personal ends. I say that because I can't see how a pious Muslim(ah) intending to please Allah can borrow a misconceived doctrine into which he/she tries to ridicule and disown inherent elements of Islam which stood firm for

over 14 centuries of Islamic sciences of scholarship.

Therefore, since you're not looking for answers, can you answer us the following (from your statement):

 

What is the responsibility of men? What is the responsibility of women? And are they the same? If not, is there equality in one responsibility compared to the other, if by nature, the specialisation of the sexes per definition differ?

Brother SOS, you have never acounted for how having politically conditioned prejudices relates to Naden´s statement ( the red text), You seem to be saying that Quran leads one to beleive contrary to what Naden has stated, namely inequality in intellect between the genders, but you lack or leave out ( intentionally? ) a key premiss, thus your conclusion is your OWN ( not Naden´s ) absurdity.

 

You can´t conclude that Naden is not looking for answers,atleast not from what you´ve presented , and if you think sinking in the term " resposibility " in the equation you´ll justify the gender inequalities through relation to the strength of the responsibily , you´re far from cutting a swath becouse the strength of any responsibility is relative.

 

Now,let´s get your stance slightly undressed :

 

Originally posted by S.O.S:

Allah (swt) committed Himself to please and be pleased with His righteous servants.

How, what and why though, my dear sister, no eye has ever seen it, no ear has ever heard it, no heart can contain it and no mind can encompass it.. ..in that, I'm limited to offer you any explanation, but unimaginably pleased will he or she be when they're told to "enter in peace"

w/c

This is a classic theistic flaw , first you possitively claim that This Deity is for pleasing and getting pleased, then immediately you reduce yourself to absurdity about how, why and what such mutual pleasing might be like [ no eye has ever seen it, no ear has ever heard it, no heart can contain it and no mind can encompass it.. ].

Brother S.O.S, how do you define and grasp or even slightly be possitive about such a pleasing?

worse , you´re deadly sure that some will unimaginably be pleased. stunned is all we can get !.

 

Originally posted by S.O.S:

(1) men were required to wage jihad and forsake their lives in great numbers, with the full knowledge of leaving their wives and children, ...the mentioning of multiple wives has the benefit of motivating men (ultimately a very simple creature) not to listen to their worldly desires and satanic whisperings. (2) Women were not required to give up their lives, and as such, Allah (swt) must have deemed unnecessary to motivate women under such circumstances in the same way as men (Allah knows best).

w/c

S.O.S, That your pretentious rationalization and justification as to why men should be rewarded more( better) than women/girls doese´t cut a swath is obvious , but when you claim that a compationate God MUST have deemed unneccasery to motivate women in the same and equal way as HE motivated Men , you´re not only asking women/girls to submit to God through men of know-how that can imparatively conclude what must a Deity deem.

 

Now , it´d be intresting to see my good freind Xiin to not only regulate desires,imposes limitations and constrain human rights, but reconcile the notion that " gender is not an issue in Islam" and the notion "Islam imposes geder-based roles".

from what i understand , it is in this spirit that women/girls were given the role of "The Prize" and denied the apparent role of " the partner ".

[Castro]

Naden, Xiin and others, good discussion. Al-Turabi's fatwa in Sudan is also generating some thought provoking issues. I thought you all might be interested in this:

 

Morocco gets first women preachers

 

Friday 28 April 2006 5:45 AM GMT

 

The idea took off after the May, 2003 attacks in Casablanca

 

Morocco has just graduated its first team of women preachers to be deployed as a vanguard in its fight against any slide towards Islamic extremism.

 

"This is a rare experiment in the Muslim world," proudly stated Muhammad Mahfudh, director of the centre attached to the Islamic affairs ministry that trained this first class of 50 women.

 

Ministry spokesman Hamid Rono said it was the "first (of its kind) in the Islamic world".

 

This pioneer group of Murshidat, or guides, who finished a 12-month course in early April, were trained to "accompany and orient" Muslim faithful, notably in prisons, hospitals and schools, said Mahfudh.

 

They will earn a salary of 5,000 dirhams ($560) a month.

 

Samira Marzouk, in her 30s like most of the others, exclaims how "proud" she is to be part of this first group.

 

She sees their mission as one to "fill in the gaps that prevent a solid framework for religion".

 

"We are going to teach a tolerant Islam by focussing on the underprivileged classes."

 

"The Morshidat will be in charge of leading religious discussions, give lessons in Islam, give moral support to people in difficulty and guide the faithful towards a tolerant Islam"

 

The idea of the Murshidat, spearheaded by King Mohammed VI and the government, took off after Islamic extremist attacks in the Casablanca on May 16, 2003 claimed 45 lives and left dozens of others wounded.

 

The King who had already started reshaping religious structures to rein in any extremist drift in his North African country, which borders Algeria where violence between government forces and armed Islamic extremists has caused more than 150,000 deaths since 1992.

 

But the synchronised suicide bomb attacks that struck Jewish and foreign targets gave new urgency to the initiative.

 

More than 2,000 people were arrested in vast police sweeps after the May bombings as the king pledged that the attacks would be the last to rock Morocco.

 

Investigators concluded that those behind the incident had indeed sought recruits in the teeming slums around Casablanca, the kingdom's biggest city.

 

Marzuk, with a diploma in Arab literature who said she knew the Quran by heart, was quick to specify she was "not going to take the place of an imam".

 

"The imamate in Islam is restricted solely to men who are apt at leading prayers, notably those on Friday," she said.

 

"The Morshidat will be in charge of leading religious discussions, give lessons in Islam, give moral support to people in difficulty and guide the faithful towards a tolerant Islam," she added.

 

Another graduate, Laila Faris, a lively young woman who holds a degree in Islamic studies, said she saw the Murshidat's role as promoting "the true face of Islam".

 

"We will help attenuate any drift towards Islamic extremism," she said, stressing that "an overall approach is needed to dealing with radical Islam".

 

During the year-long course, the curriculum ranged from Islamic studies to psychology, sociology, computer skills, economy, law and business management.

 

"We will help attenuate any drift towards Islamic extremism... an overall approach is needed to dealing with radical Islam"

 

Laila Faris, another pioneering Murshida

Sports was the only subject dropped from the women preachers' training because the schedule was just too tight," regretted Mahfudh, who hopes to include it for the second batch of Murshidat trainees, whose applications are now being accepted.

 

For the Islamic affairs minister, Ahmed Taoufiq, the Murshidat will also "instruct women on their basis religious duties".

 

He said religious radicalism was not part of Morocco's culture "but you can never prevent evil one hundred percent".

 

Morocco's Islamic fundamentalists are divided over the initiative.

 

For one, Islamist deputy Mustafa Ramid with the Islamist Justice and Development party (PJD), the main opposition group with 43 seats in the 325-member parliament, the Murshidat is a "positive" development.

 

"I see nothing more to say about this initiative because in Islam, men and women are equal," he said, pointing to Egypt which has "eminent women scholars of Islam".

 

But the head of the youth group in Morocco's most radical Islamic fundamentalist association, Al-Adl Wal-Ihssane (Justice and Welfare), forecast it would have no effect on the ground.

 

"The power behind this initiative is the same as the one that commits acts contrary to Islam, notably degrading moral values," said Hasan Bennajih, whose group is part of an Islamist movement that preaches non-violence and is unrecognized by authorities, but still influential.

 

"This initiative, then, will only have a limited impact on the population," said Hasan Bennajih.

 

Source

[S.O.S]

JB writes:

Brother SOS, you have never acounted for how having politically conditioned prejudices relates to Naden´s statement ( the red text), You seem to be saying that Quran leads one to beleive contrary to what Naden has stated, namely inequality in intellect between the genders, but you lack or leave out ( intentionally? ) a key premiss, thus your conclusion is your OWN ( not Naden´s ) absurdity.

Well, you seem to have come to the conclusion of inequality in intellect before you gave me the chance to do myself, by hijacking my challenge against Naden on his/her statement “equal responsibility and accountability of women and men in the Quranâ€! To account for my conclusion that he/she was politically conditioned in his/her perception of equality in responsibility and accountability, which lead him/her to believe that it showed equality of intellect between the sexes, I gracefully posed the following questions to give ouselves a chance to start all over again from the fundamental concepts governing Islamic principles:

 

What is the responsibility of men? What is the responsibility of women? And are they the same? If not, is there equality in one responsibility compared to the other, if by nature, the specialisation of the sexes per definition differ?

 

What is accountability? Are we accountable for what we are responsible for, or that which we’re not responsible for? Is there equality in accountability between what we're made responsible for and that which we're made not responsible for?

 

The answers to these questions are solely from Islamic perspective, and someone like you, good JB, has no place in this matter.

 

JB writes:

This is a classic theistic flaw , first you possitively claim that This Deity is for pleasing and getting pleased, then immediately you reduce yourself to absurdity about how, why and what such mutual pleasing might be like [ no eye has ever seen it, no ear has ever heard it, no heart can contain it and no mind can encompass it.. ].

Brother S.O.S, how do you define and grasp or even slightly be possitive about such a pleasing?

worse , you´re deadly sure that some will unimaginably be pleased. stunned is all we can get !.

Now, Naden is Muslim and believes in Allah, Paradise and Hell-Fire, so am I. We (Naden, I, other Muslims alike) believe that what Allah (swt) has prepared for His pious and obedient servants as a reward in Heaven, is something that “no eye has ever seen it, no ear has ever heard it, no heart can contain it and no mind can encompass it..†Even though you hate the sound of it, we just love it!

 

JB writes:

S.O.S, That your pretentious rationalization and justification as to why men should be rewarded more( better) than women/girls doese´t cut a swath is obvious , but when you claim that a compationate God MUST have deemed unneccasery to motivate women in the same and equal way as HE motivated Men , you´re not only asking women/girls to submit to God through men of know-how that can imparatively conclude what must a Deity deem.

A sad demonstration of your wasted nature! To keep it short and simple: :rolleyes:

 

1) neither men nor women are rewarded more than the other on the basis of their sexes, lo, it’s on the basis of Taqwa and lifelong accumulation good deeds whatever the sex, race, class, age, etc.

 

2) Allah deems necessary whatever He deems necessary! Allah motivates men for the purpose of fulfilling a particular task required to perform by highlighting some of the rewards thereof. If the task is jihad, then, since only men are required to perform that particular task, there’s logically no need to motivate women therefore. Similarly, only women (and not men) are promised the status of martyrdom if they die while giving birth to children. I as a man don’t need to be motivated for that reason, since I’m not required to give birth to children.

[Naden]

SOS,

 

In different verses in the Quran, the prophet (pbuh) is described or admonished to say that he has no knowledge of the unseen (al-ghaib). You can probably take a crack at your own question if you refer to those verses and examine these premises:

 

1. Knowledge of what is forthcoming (the unseen or ghaib) on earth or in the afterlife is limited to God and those he chooses.

2. Mohamed (csw) is not chosen to know the unseen as explained in verses where he says he knows not of the fortunes of God or what will happen (6:50) or that he knows not what will be done to him or us ((46:9), and finally that if he knew of the unseen, he would have much of good and would not have been touched by harm (7:188).

3. We consider the revelation to be the truth.

 

Then, I cannot understand how the prophet would be privy to what will happen in the afterlife outside of what is revealed to him in the Quran. These are, of course, my own thoughts and fall under my limitations.