Reformation in whose sphere?

[xiinfaniin]

^^^Vikingow, that’s very short, yet snappy, thought, and it resonates with me walaal. I have always held that though the function of Islamic government is definitely defined by the revealed truth, a maneuvering room is left for the faithful to adopt its form. Democracy, I thought, could be tuned to a companionable friend. So say more, old boy, and share your thoughts with us as to how you envision for this to be. Seeker has equally exhibited interest in this as well. And I will IA chip in.

 

Seekerey , going back to the golden age doesn’t mean stepping back into the seventh century. It does not mean rejecting the substantial progress of human civilization, and isolating Muslim world from the rest of the globe. It means to live up to the ideals of Islam just like the early Muslims of that era did. Embracing our old values does not make us any less civilized it would just make us different. Not that I think you missed that point, good sister, but it is certainly a point of contention in the reform discourse.

 

As to the complexity of these varying interpretations, and how intricate it could really get, that, I am afraid, is asking too much from this topic. The fact that the framework in which these interpretations are done is predefined, and solidly structured in our core concepts very much regulates and keeps them (those interpretations that is) in check. That’s what the science of Islamic fiqh is for, good sister.

 

I will come back later.

 

PS: Seekerey does not mean yariisey. Yaa waxaa kuu sheegay !

[SeeKer]

Viks,

 

If we were to receed to our texts we would see that Khilafa (government of Islamic state) is fard kifaya and Khalifa is the head of a Khilafa. I wouldn't think in this day of age we would even be able to have a Khilafa let alone a Khalifa. Khalifa can be selected by the majilis, nominated by previous Khalifa or by force.

 

The Majilis (your council of scholars) would actually be the one selecting the Khalifa in this case. The Majilis like you said would be a set number of experts in life(doctors/engineers et al), knowledgable in religion, just, leaders of diff tribes who are respected and obeyed.They in turn would be elected by the people.I should state that if the people were unhappy with the choice of Khalifa then they had to challenge his appoinment through the Majilis. (So far so good sounds pretty democractic to me)

 

Who then would be selecting the interpreters and applicators of the law? And for that matter who would police the police?

 

Talking earlier with someone on the topic I was enlightened to a hadeeth (if its saheeh or not I am not sure) . I will paraphrase it till I can find out for sure IA. It states that if two muslim scholars with same knowledge,after consulting the Quran and Sunnah, come to two different conclusions then both their conclusions would be right and should therefore come to a consensus that is not at odds with the Quran and Sunnah.I do believe this is a form of Qiyaas. Would that play a role in passing of verdict? What is the measuring tool for telling who is more knowledgable?

 

Xiinfaniinow

 

I doubt I have barely even tapped into the database that most SOLers posseses. I don't demand of you what you don't know all I want to engage in is exchange of ideas. Now thats not too much to ask for is it? in the proper framework that is

[xiinfaniin]

^^

 

Of course not…and SOL is a repository of knowledge, no doubt. And not that I meant you’re asking too much in that sense. But I naturally like measured debates with well defined parameters, and introducing jurisprudential processes, and how it’s done, I thought, may alter your thread’s trajectory, and drift it a bit from its direction.

 

But now that you’ve insisted, it may be a good discussion to have. So bring it on, I say, and pardon my negligible nuisance in your royal court . Seekerey .

[SeeKer]

^^ You are verily pardoned.

 

Restraining a debate is sometimes a good thing when they tend to get out of hand quickly. As far as I can tell this is a discussion and it doesn't seem to hold the fancy of many of SOLers. So, fear not as I doubt you will be bombarded by a crowd of questions or demands. I was clarifying a subject but then viks and you provided doors that begged for my curiosity, so just like our religion is fluid so is this discussion.

 

Looking forward to reading more.

[S.O.S]

Brothers and sisters, a/c.

 

Why not start with and comment on the much needed reformation of the artificial borders that still remain meaningless but o so deadly in many aspects, be it geographically, psychologically or religiously transforming into mental markings, which has imprisoned us for many parts of the past centuries?

 

Obviously, we're mistaken if we see these practical obstacles dividing and weakening the Muslim unity, coherence and strength, of which otherwise, Islam would have been in a "living" dynamic state (far and beyond any unworthy call/challenge to reform). Don't you all think so?

 

Am I anti-territorial-nationhood-divisions among Muslim peoples? Obviously! Where do these silly countries with their silly little flags come from? Our interests are primarily one and united by devine authority; Fake territories have many fake intersts; Our interests cannot be aligned with many fake countries: Don't you all think so?

 

Whatever it is that you believe, this issue should have a higher priority that the subject matter chosen for this particular thread...

 

W/s.

 

P.S. Anyone remebers Ernest Renan's statement that "Anation is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours"?

[xiinfaniin]

^^^Once Muslims are reformed, the problem of borders will naturally go away. Healing divisions is the prerequisite for unity of the Ummah.

 

Assuming the necessity of reform is not a point of moot, where do you think, good SOS, we should start? Do we go with Imam Albaani’s and Shahiid Quttub’s approach of bottom-up reform, or should we opt for the efficiency of Shahiid Cabdalla Cezaam’s assume-responsibility-and-lead-the-masses approach? In other words would it be more effective if political reforms come first before educational reforms take effect?

 

Where’s Seeker? As we agreed that reforming Muslims should not equal taking them back in time, and hence decline, how do you prioritize, good sister, this looming reform? Could we go beyond personal level reform rhetoric, and attack the big issues of this age?

[Khayr]

S.O.S SAID:

 

Am I anti-territorial-nationhood-divisions among Muslim peoples? Obviously! Where do these silly countries with their silly little flags come from? Our interests are primarily one and united by devine authority; Fake territories have many fake intersts; Our interests cannot be aligned with many fake countries: Don't you all think so?

I agree and these 'fake territories' were CARVED UP by COLONIALISTS, so as to keep their HOLD on things.

[SeeKer]

Khayr and SOS,

Borders might have a lot to do with wars going on in the once colonized nations but I fail to see its place in a reform discussion.

 

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Where’s

Seeker? As we agreed that reforming Muslims should not equal taking them back in time, and hence decline, how do you prioritize, good sister, this looming reform? Could we go beyond personal level reform rhetoric, and attack the big issues of this age?

Sorry about not partaking in the discussion as I hoped but sometimes I have to attend to more pressing matters at hand. Back to the discussion eh?

 

A qaxooti once said true and everlasting change must come from within. I believe this is true especially if we are talking about theology.If we wish to reform the ummah to adhere to the faith then we need to start from the basics. Can't build a sturdy house without foundation now can we? Education is the key . Strip away the ignorance in the ummah, the confusion between religion and culture (this plagues somalis) and instead plant seeds of curiosity. People need to move from blind faith to knowledge but how we go about packaging/presenting the knowledge is the key to success.We live in a world of instant gratification and seriously sometimes I think most of us need someone to chew our food (read as information) before we digest it. Should we then package knowledge for mass consumption? or will that take away from the history and struggle that comes from a journey of discovery/rediscovery/self discovery of our faith?

 

Edited: Xiin, I still would like a clarification on the jurisprudential process as it is or better yet as it should be. Previously posted, as I looked into the subject, were some key things I noted which would meet the fancy of the democratically visioned Muslims but there were also concepts that were blurry. Care to enlighten?

Viks you too

[S.O.S]

Xiinfaniin (waxa kaasoo xiimi iyo waxa kaasii faniini garan maynee), A/c.

 

Ever since I found out some years back that the world cannot be explained or solved its problems by either one way or the other, I must admit, I was very disappointed. The fact of the matter is, though simplistic, both approaches are correct, most times simultaneously and sometimes one approach must get priority over the other, but not necessarily.

 

Having accepted that, it means that both objectives are extremely important to the Islamic world and what differs>> is only the nature of the problem, time and situation which is influential to the way in which we choose to approach the problems. For example, Somalia and Afghanistan need a different kind of approach (where from top down inspirational leadership should go hand in hand with from bottom up motivational education and social transformation) as suppose to places like Jordan and Syria or Iraq for that matter. I think personally, the problem lies not with the approach, because repairing is generally preferred to breaking, as one bird in the hand is better than ten in the air, and eventually collective wisdom prevails (Somalis not included that is)! What do you think?

 

W/s

[Nur]

Seeker

 

 

"Reform movement" are part of Christian history, Protestanism and others were the result of these "reforms" , as we the world became global village, funny thigs are taking place, few years back a confused Somalinet forumer posted a thread that suggested the creation of a new Reform Islamic Protestant Movement, little did he know about the history of christianity, so I helped him with his vision of Islamic Christianity, again, its a lampoon, no one should take it more than its meant to, amplification of an idiotic suggestion;

 

 

My Answer to O Jay.

 

 

Interesting Idea O JAY

 

 

Let us see where your Vision and idea takes us.

 

First, we will have the Islamic Nicean Convention, in the Mediterranean Port of Nicea, near Cyprus, There, we will have President Bush as the Chairman of the Convention, since he is a Sourthern Babtist, his presence and power can intimidate delegates to adopt Islamic Protestantism. His position will be analogous to the place of the Roman King De Niro who presided over the First Nicean convention in the second century in which Christians decalred that There are three Godheads.

 

The delegates who will come from all parts of Muslim world, will be named by your organization, Islamic Protestantism Organization, and because you do not have enough members to make a big difference, The National Institue of Health will CLONE you to be five thousand people who want Islamic Protestantanism. Meanwhile, Twenty "backward" clerics like NUR who will disagree with your plan will also be invited for the sake of fairness in the elections. At the end of the Convention, Genetically altered delegates, who are your clones, will declare that Allah is God , Muhammad is Son of God and Ali is the holy spirit, but these three are ONE . Welcome the Islamic Trinity.

 

 

Now we have the Muslim TRINITY.

 

 

Next, The Clones will author some two hundred books of Quraans, each one different version, The authors will have only one name, just like MARK, LUKE and MATHEW etc, and nobody will bother to verify their original names, and many sects will appear who will begin to fight and cause trouble for the peace of the New World Order.

 

Due to this confusion, the New Worl Order Government decides to give the Islamic Catholics a small state in Morocco, which will be called Islamic Vatican, where the Muslim Pope sits. He begins to bless people , feed them pieces of PITA Bread, and Islamic wine named ZOMZOM, The Pope will sell to them pieces of Paradise for $1000 per square meter while supplies last for the next century, he will allow all the sinning you can buy for a sizable donation to the Islamic Church, and if you can describe tidbits to the priest during your confession, The Church may even offer you a lucrative Job as the youth counsellor, where you have an opportunity to molest kids.

 

The New Islamic Church which you envision, will teach that all you have to do is believe that Muhammad died for your sins, so no more guilty feeling when indulging in your lusts. Islamic Catholics will be able to enjoy good things in life like wine and girl friends. In schools they will have Islamic Choirs, singing, "O my Lord Muhammad please save me". The Islamic Catholics will sell Statues of Muhammad, and Ali, and The Mowliid, Muhammad's birthday will be the Islamic Chrismas, when Islamic Catholics will import Chrismass trees from Norway and Sweden. The Islamic Nativity sites, In Islamic Catholics Mosques there will be a Statue of Muhammad , Halima, Khadija, Fatma, Aisha, Maymuna, Safia.

 

At This point many Muslim Catholics who live in Germany will become upset by the Church in Morocco, and is commercialization of the Religion. The Islamic protestanism movement begins, led by one of the decendents of your clones, his name will be Martin Luther O JAY, and the Islamic Protestant church is established.

 

Then the Protestants differ on many issues, so new sub groups are born, Islamic Southern Babtists, Islamic Seven day adventist, Islamic Methodists, Islamic Mennonites, Islamic Presbyterians, and Islamic Unitarians, etc...and the list goes on.

 

Finally, people become upset with religion altogeter, and become more Secular, Religion will become a big joke, and a one day Services for geriatric old couples in their 90s, while girls an boys will be going to church to chat and socialize, and plan weekend parties.

 

At the end, your Demonic Dream of Democracy will be realized when Gays and Lesbians are ordained as Islamic Protestant Sheikhs in your Islamic Protestant Church who will make everything under the sun Xalaal.

 

 

Is that what you had in mind O JAY?

 

 

Nur

 

 

2002 Nurtel Lampoons unlimited

[SeeKer]

^^^ Seeing that you took the time to actually go to the archives and paste from one of previous replies I assuming you went through and read the whole thread. If you did (thats a huge IF) I fail to see how giving a satirical comparision of the Nicean meeting has anything to do with this.I was not holding a banner asking for reform of Islam.

 

Here is the sparky note version since I am assuming you are a busy man :rolleyes: I was questioning the word reform and later on the discussion segwayed to interpretation and application of laws in an Islamic state. This is all hypothetical and abstract thus for me at least I can actually (hypothetically) model and see how such a state would function in the real world. I would more than welcome your input on the matter but I believe you first have to ahem ahem...........understand where the discussion begun and where it is at the moment

 

Ps:- Good to see you again Nur. I had forgotten the good ol' days of locking horns in another part of cyber world. Glad to see you are still the hardliner/hero arch type with sarcasm as a weapon of choice.

[S.O.S]

originally posted by seeker:

Borders might have a lot to do with wars going on in the once colonized nations but I fail to see its place in a reform discussion.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that everything is fine just the way they are... EXCEPT ISLAM and therefore the only thing that needs reform is ISLAM alone? Even the borders that are doing more harm to Muslims than anything else (need i list every evil it's source to?) needn't be reformed? Is there anything you cannot "fail to see its place in a reform discussion" except Islam?

 

Can you explain your point please?

 

W/c

[SeeKer]

Oi luv don't get your knickers in a knot

 

I don't see what it has to do with this topic............hint hint start a thread about the evils of borders and I will be more than happy to share my two cents about the subject.

 

My above suggestion should not be construed as rude but merely me pointing out that the topic I wish to be discussed will not be derailed or deranged into something more. Comprende mijo? Now as they say in the commercial you are now free to roam the country (SOL).

[S.O.S]

^^Ok, lets use sign language then

 

a) The subject is "reform".......agree?

 

...therefore...

 

b) "Reform" as an abusive word directed at Islam

 

.....or....

 

c) "Reform" which is related to par excellence condition of the Muslims when Islamically projected.....

 

Now, b is absolutely out of the question! :rolleyes:

 

...and since c has many obvious dimentions, I only sought to help you by mentioning "borders"....but to be honest with you; I find it disturbing to see you dismiss that point so easily whiles pointining out at the same time its consequent deadly wars! Don't you think that anything that causes Muslims to fight other Muslims is in dire need of attention and reformation?

 

w/c

[SeeKer]

Originally posted by S.O.S:

I find it disturbing to see you dismiss that point so easily whiles pointining out at the same time its consequent deadly wars! Don't you think that anything that causes Muslims to fight other Muslims is in dire need of attention and reformation?

 

w/c

Yes dear, anything that makes muslims fight is in need of attention. Are you expecting me to negate your statement? I can't do that. I acknowledge that wars begun dur to borders case in point (I can read your mind) you might be thinking about Isreal/Palestine and India/Pakistan. Do you notice something about the examples I picked dear? They are not in Africa and they are religious borders which are hindarance more than physical borders ( I know I am oversimplifying things here but all due respect I rest with my previous statement of saying this topic is much better dealt with as a separate issue) .

 

Ok now that leaves the wars Africa..........colonialism carved your borders there. The question I have here is it only muslims who are fighting? Most of African countries have gone through some kind of civil strife due to economic difficulties and most times than most power hungry individuals. The only one that seemed to have muslims as prominent members would be Sudan and seriously that is more color based if you ask me . Xiinfaniin answered you aptly by stating that if you were to deal with the core issues in Islam then your conflicts should lessen. To solve a problem it is always wise to go to the root of the problem. Your borders issue is a sub-heading in the division of Islam but I am not trying to figure out individual solutions to these problems per se more like I am trying to find a compound solution to all the problems.

 

Now SOS sxb,with all due respect, if you are hell bent on adding this into the topic why don't you bring something to the table apart from borders have something to do with reform. Something substantial.