Abortion it is just a question of economics

[ATLAS]

I have no time so I will just make a statement and hope we can discuss it more openly i would like to learn more about the arguments:

 

Abortion is a question of who can afford to raise up a child to be a responsible member of society

 

Give me time and i will expand until then please jump in

[Caano Geel]

in many many many situations, i think you are right.

 

The problem is not that no one realises it but what to do about it. i.e. given that we know the situation, you are resposnible for your own, society still isnt gonna give you much. It probbaly cant be expected to give you much either. *gross simplification* but if every down and 9out person could rely on their society ro insure they are comfortable, then there would be on insentive to not be down and out.

 

similarly you probably could not get a consensus to support every pregrnant mother. The closest/most civilised mechanism we have to the ideal right now is the orphanage i guess.

[Arawella]

Abortion denies a human the chance to live. I believe that once the egg is fertilised a life is formed. A child should be seen as a gift and blessing from Allah and should not be simply aborted due to financial circumstances. Personally, I can only excuse abortion if the health of the mother is threatened.

 

If a woman is given the rights to abort the life she carries, should the rights of that existence not also be valued? Who are we to deny the chance for a person to exist?

[juba]

Originally posted by ATLAS:

Abortion is a question of who can afford to raise up a child to be a responsible member of society

there are other reasons such as simply not wanting a child wether rich or poor. But your financial status is a big part in this horrible and sinful decision.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by ATLAS:

I have no time so I will just make a statement and hope we can discuss it more openly i would like to learn more about the arguments:

 

Abortion is a question of who can afford to raise up a child to be a responsible member of society

 

Give me time and i will expand until then please jump in

A needlessly controversial and vapid generalization. Of course economics play into it but that is not all. In the same vein as your statment, I might say - The inabilitly of Africans to rule themselves decently is simply a question of their ********* .

[ATLAS]

why is it not all?

If a man or a woman cannot support a child to the minimum of financial security, what right have they to bring an individual into this world?

 

I read in the economist recently of the suprising results of a survey, in this survey the reaserchers showed that the correlation between the abortion rate in high crime areas led to an almost porpotionate decrease in crime rates rather than any increase in policing.

 

The long and short of it economically deprived people having abortion guaranteed less ill provided for young offenders.

 

What other argument is there?

[Castro]

Originally posted by ATLAS:

The long and short of it economically deprived people having abortion guaranteed less ill provided for young offenders.

I don't like the tone or message in your statement. I'll tell you this, however, abortion is a failure on many levels none of which are economic in nature. We all know that preventing people from having (legal or illegal) sex is out of the question. It is one of the basic needs of humans. Given that fact, we also know unprotected sex is the only way a woman can get pregnant (and/or contract an STD). Now, if a person is contemplating abortion then obviously religious morality is not preventing them from using one of the various forms of contraception? What then, pray tell, explains why so many abortions occur every day? It's mental and physical laziness. It's a failure to delay gratification. It's an inability (unwillingness?) to plan, and properly prepare, for the inevitable outcomes of unprotected sexual intercourse. Abortion is preventable and cannot be unavoidable. When it is considered as an option, failures of thought and deed have occured on many levels prior to that point. That's why it's a grave sin. That's why I don't support it, anymore.

[Simple_Muslim]

ABORTION IS MURDER! THAT IS IT! NO NEED FOR EXCUSES.

[Medley of extemporanea]

Originally posted by ATLAS:

 

The long and short of it economically deprived people having abortion guaranteed less ill provided for young offenders.

 

What other argument is there?

Yeah, if poor people have abortions that results in a decrees in children in poor families, which will also result in a decrees in the number of criminals that happen to be poor (since it's safe to assume that in any sufficient sample of people, there is a percentage that will break the law).

 

But this has nothing to do with your claim ATLAS. You said, "Abortion is a question of who can afford to raise up a child to be a responsible member of society" and have provided no facts to support your statement.

 

Can you prove to me that most of the people who have abortions do it because they are poor? Show me numbers that say that most people getting abortions are doing it because they can't support children.

 

It sounds to me like your advocating abortion as a crime reduction tactic aimed at criminals from poor families. ATLAS, if your goal is to get rid of those you classify as 'undesirables', why don't you just advocate for putting drugs in their tap water to make their women unfertile (as they do to black people in America)?

[Jafarel.]

What is the ruling on aborting a pregnancy in the early months (1-3) before the soul is breathed into the foetus?.

 

Answer :

 

Praise be to Allaah.

 

The Council of Senior Scholars issued the following statement:

 

1 – It is not permissible to abort a pregnancy at any stage unless there is a legitimate reason, and within very precise limits.

 

2 – If the pregnancy is in the first stage, which is a period of forty days, and aborting it serves a legitimate purpose or will ward off harm, then it is permissible to abort it. But aborting it at this stage for fear of the difficulty of raising children or of being unable to bear the costs of maintaining and educating them, or for fear for their future or because the couple feel that they have enough children – this is not permissible.

 

3 – It is not permissible to abort a pregnancy when it is an ‘alaqah (clot) or mudghah (chewed lump of flesh) (which are the second and third periods of forty days each) until a trustworthy medical committee has decided that continuing the pregnancy poses a threat to the mother’s wellbeing, in that there is the fear that she will die if the pregnancy continues. It is permissible to abort it once all means of warding off that danger have been exhausted.

 

4 – After the third stage, and after four months have passed, it is not permissible to abort the pregnancy unless a group of trustworthy medical specialists decide that keeping the foetus in his mother’s womb will cause her death, and that should only be done after all means of keeping the foetus alive have been exhausted. A concession is made allowing abortion in this case so as to ward off the greater of two evils and to serve the greater of two interests.

 

Al-Fataawa al-Jaami’ah, 3/1056 (www.islam-qa.com)

 

 

Why abort?

1) One had illegal sexual intercourse and fears the world will find out if the baby is kept.

OR

2) Married couple's calculations go wrong and dont want to keep the baby due to 'insufficient funds'.

 

As for the first scenario, she shouldnt have been there in the first place. For her carelessness (here, no blame on the guy...he's NOT the one aborting), I personally feel no abortion choice/s be available to her as a punishment for her actions.

 

In the second one, ABORTION is out of the question. They are married. Why marry? Just to have sex?? NO. To enjoy life together in a relationship that is most pleasing to their creator and ofcourse....have children.

 

I personally disagree with the notion: Abortion is a question of who can afford to raise up a child to be a responsible member of society .

 

Abortion is thus not an economic issue but rather a MORAL one.

[Jamilah]

ATLAS,

I completely disagree with the statement and my reasons have been articulated impeccably by Castro and strengthened by the statement posted by Jarafel, which incorporates Islamic principles.

 

However, in regards to your assertions that

If a man or a woman cannot support a child to the minimum of financial security, what right have they to bring an individual into this world?

 

you must consider that a clarification is required. After all where do you draw the line? Inevitably, depending on an individual’s financial position definition of security will vary. Does this mean if a couple depending on where they fit in the socioeconomic spectrum must either conform to the given monetary limit or terminate a pregnancy? Let’s exaggerate and say they are off by a dollar. I deliberately use hyperbole in the scenario to accentuate the illogicality of your argument.

 

Due to the fact your case is devoid of Islamic principles you can conveniently overlook one of the pillars of Iman; BELIEF IN DIVINE WILL. With the will of Allah this so called “security†can perish within a day. Just remember Allah is the only one who has the right to give or take lives.

 

As Muslims only Islamic morals should govern our lives and guide our actions not finances or politics.

[Arawella]

“here, no blame on the guy...he's NOT the one abortingâ€

 

Jafarel, I think you should retract the above point, you must know that “it takes two to tangoâ€. The partner is as guilty if he consented to the abortion.

 

Perhaps a bit of compassion towards the woman, aborting a child is not an easy decision and can have detrimental effects on the perpetrator.

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by ATLAS:

The long and short of it economically deprived people having abortion guaranteed less ill provided for young offenders.

I don't like the tone or message in your statement. I'll tell you this, however,

abortion is a failure on many levels none of which are economic in nature.

Village Member,

 

What about Population Control and its relation to abortion and economics?

 

 

Population control, however, involves a public or private program to reduce births within a specific area or group (for example, within China or among African Americans) and/or to increase births elsewhere (for example, within France or among the highly-educated).

Source

 

 

Here are some Pro-Abortion Economic Arguments

 

• Abortion is necessary to check population growth and costs associated with this growth. More people, means less resources to share and more shortages in wealth and resources such as food and water.

• Abortion helps to check demographics and population balances. e.g. poor single afro-american mothers v. middle class afluent citizens

• Abortion helps to eleviate strains on medicare and reduces the chances of defective and disabled children.

Source

 

 

Village Member,

 

Abortion is preventable and cannot be unavoidable.

:confused:

 

Can I ask a question to the nomads,

 

If you saw someone who wanted 10kids or who wanted 10kids, would you raise the issue of economics with them i.e. How can you AFFORD to maintain such a large family?

 

Fi Amanillah

[Jafarel.]

Khayr,

Can I ask a question to the nomads,

 

If you saw someone who wanted 10kids or who wanted 10kids, would you raise the issue of economics with them i.e. How can you AFFORD to maintain such a large family?

I would not raise that issue because:

 

Allah (SW) says His Glorious Book:'And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you. Surely the killing of them is a great sin.' (Al-Isra, 31)

 

It is Allah that provides for us all. May Allah provide for us from his bounty that which is Halal.

[Jafarel.]

Fathia walaal,

 

Jafarel, I think you should retract the above point, you must know that “it takes two to tangoâ€. The partner is as guilty if he consented to the abortion.

I am not saying that he isnt guilty. Ofcourse she wouldnt be in that situation without his 'input'.But when it comes to abortion, she has to face it alone. The pains/difficulties of such process I cannot imagine