Seeking Justice , of Gods or the Politicians

[Castro]

Originally posted by Sincere:

Ok,are you being incoherant, or am I missing something here. In the italic portion you acknowledge that theodicies are spoken of in the Quraan, and thus exist?ed (right) Then you vaguely state they were ancient. Meaning what?, they dont exist no more, they were occurences of the past, and theodicies have ceased?

Yes, neither theodicies nor miracles exist anymore. It requires much greater faith and less "signs" to believe today than it did around the times of the prophets. Technology has enabled us to understand many things easily considered either a miracle or a theodicy. I hope that makes sense. You're right, re-reading my original post I see how it could be a little on the ambiguous side.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

What a jocular statement is that when one speakes about controling hurricanes! Isn't true that a thing you can control is a thing you can create. Thus, if anyone can control a forthcoming hurricane, why not create some and use them against North Korea who is more than a natural challange to the western world.

Alleubaahne, wax kalena waad u yara baahantahay: open your eyes a little and look around you. We already control things considered impossible only a hundred years ago. I don't know about your control-create link but there are things we can't create but fairly easily control. Think about it.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Khayr:

If God did not put limits on Knoweldge and Advances, then why the need for Rules,Regulations, Protocols etc.What exactly is being implied here, CASTRO???

I don't understand your link between rules, regulations and limits on knowledge so I won't comment on that.

 

Apart from cilm-ul-qhaib, which will remain unkown to us, there's no other limit imposed on humans by Allah either in seeking knowledge or attaining it. In fact, there's ample Quranic and hadeeth evidence that encourages us to learn and acquire knowledge.

[Viking]

When adversity befalls the 'wicked' it is referred to as punishment and trial when it befalls the virtuous. What we learn from it is far more important than the label we give the event. The destruction of Ad and Thamud is a lesson to any civilisation (people) that think that they are invincible, Katrina helped expose the ills of capitalism, the racism that exists in the USA, the vulnerability of the sole superpower etc.

 

 

 

Yes, neither theodicies nor miracles exist anymore. It requires much greater faith and less "signs" to believe today than it did around the times of the prophets.

Castro,

This statement is partially right; miracles witnessed by the Sahaba (i.e. the Revelation of the Qur'an) surely solidified their faith. But our mere existence is a miracle, the birth of a child is a miracle and there are other examples all around us which are signs of Divine presence in 'human' affairs.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Viking:

But our mere existence is a miracle, the birth of a child is a miracle and there are other examples all around us which are signs of Divine presence in 'human' affairs.

I agree. What I meant by miracles, for example, is the Israa and Mi'raage incident.

[Elysian]

A bit off topic, but nonetheless I’d like to add a comment to this discussion about “humans acting Godâ€.

 

I think we need to distinguish what is technologically feasible from what is morally/ethically legitimate. Technologically, the human mental capacity is our limitation, and ethically our conscience.

 

Even if we today could harness a hurricane, should we? An argument such as “we mustn’t play God†is not a valid argument. In that case we’ve been playing “God†since ancient time.

 

Allah has set the natural laws that govern everything we know of, and simply what humans have been doing all along is to understand these laws and if possible use them for our benefit.

 

In this context I believe it’s extraneous to question what the human being can accomplish, when instead the focus should be on IF we ought to do it!

 

Back to the topic. Castro, I don’t understand how you can make the connection that theodicies can’t exist because of advancement in technology? Don’t you think, although we’re able to explain the cause and consequence of a hurricane, the big question WHY can still remain?

[Castro]

Originally posted by Elysian:

I don’t understand how you can make the connection that theodicies can’t exist because of advancement in technology? Don’t you think, although we’re able to explain the cause and consequence of a hurricane, the big question WHY can still remain?

Good question, Elysian. This is how I see it: miracles (the extra-terrestrial ones) and theodicies are two sides of the same coin. If humans are obliged nowadays to acquire and maintain faith in the intangible without any signs from Allah, then theodicies shouldn't be around either. If you can believe in Allah without having any "writing on the wall", wouldn't a theodicy serve the same purpose as a miracle?

[Alle-ubaahne]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

What a jocular statement is that when one speakes about controling hurricanes! Isn't true that a thing you can control is a thing you can create. Thus, if anyone can control a forthcoming hurricane, why not create some and use them against North Korea who is more than a natural challange to the western world.

Alleubaahne, wax kalena waad u yara baahantahay: open your eyes a little and look around you. We already control things considered impossible only a hundred years ago. I don't know about your control-create link but there are things we can't create but fairly easily control. Think about it.

Castro, it seems to me that you missed to understand the history of distrust as to how it pertains to the material development in western societies. You can't speak about total relience on technology without grasping the fact that there never was a time when scientists were unskeptical about their inventions of anything due to the prone-to-fail essence of all scientific developments. This indeed is the focul point to stick with when discussing about science in general. And as to your gullible believe in science, I think you are utterly misled by the glittering of the digital age of computer technology. Absulatism and gaurenteed warrenties are not the typical tags that scientists bargain about. May be a reer baadiye like me would buy otherwise!

[Castro]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

And as to your gullible believe in science, I think you are utterly misled by the glittering of the digital age of computer technology.

Saaxib, what I think of science and technology is irrelevant here. First, do you think it's possible, through science and technology, to harness and control natural phenomena such as hurricanes? Second, does Katrina count as a theodicy (the original topic theme)? If yes, why? If no, why not? That's it. My scientific beliefs and your religious inclinations are both on the periphery of this discussion.

 

Cheers!

[Alle-ubaahne]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

And as to your gullible believe in science, I think you are utterly misled by the glittering of the digital age of computer technology.

Saaxib, what I think of science and technology is irrelevant here. First, do you think it's possible, through science and technology, to harness and control natural phenomena such as hurricanes? Second, does Katrina count as a theodicy (the original topic theme)? If yes, why? If no, why not? That's it. My scientific beliefs and your religious inclinations are

both

on the periphery of this discussion.

 

Cheers!

I understand your confidence in thinking about controling natural phenomina, but through what means are you able to control any given natural phenomina, unless you happen to believe in the umbigious science? First, don't question my religious inclinations, because we're simply discussing about the ability of scientific developments and what they can tackle in terms of natural disasters. Secondly, by questioning your believes in terms of science, it was nothing but what you had brought on the table in measuring and bragging about your level of science fenaticism. I guess, its not only you who adhere the religiousity of the science, but many growing number of dissatisfied former christains are resorting to the science as a final abode for belief. Now, whether the hurricane Katrine has a divine cause or not, I think my position about the faith of technology and science is clear.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

I guess, its not only you who adhere the religiousity of the science, but many growing number of dissatisfied former christains are resorting to the science as a final abode for belief.

And with that ends the discussion. Nice talking to you, Alle-ubaahne. We should do this again.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Nice talking to you as well Mr. Castro.