Religious Knowledge– round table discussion.

[Sophist]

I am at work thus it would not be possible to write more. What the above question is asking is whether "reason" is unified meaning universal!

[Salafi_Online]

Bismillah, Innalhamdalillah,

 

Bro Baashee, baarakallahu feek,

 

 

it was once said," May Allaah have mercy upon you! Know that the Sunnah is not a matter of analogies or reasoning with examples, and desires are not to be followed in it. Rather, it is just a case of affirming the narrations from Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam), without asking how, or saying: 'Why?' or 'How?'(imam Barbaharee 4th cent.)

 

 

the methodology of the people of the Sunnah is that the intellect does not compel something pon a person, nor does it raise something from him. It does not determine something to be permissible or impermissible for him, nor something to be good or bad.. The foundation of the Religion is following (al-Ittibaa') and the intellect is subservient.'

 

So if the foundation of the Religion was upon the intellect, the creation would have been in no need of Revelation, nor of Prophets, and the meaning of commanding and prohibiting would be false, and whoever wished could have said whatever he wished. Indeed the philosophers(ahlul kaalam), Sufies, and their likes, make their intellects callers to Allaah, and they take them at the level of Messengers concerning what is between them.

 

But the people of the Sunnah, stop at where the messenger and the companions stop, They do not speak of matters they spoke not off. They remain silent of that which they(ie companions) were silent off.

 

OUr noble Shaykh, Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (d.728H) (rahimahu

Allah) said,

 

"Whoever looks into the words of the famous Imaams from the Salaf concerning this topic will come to know that they were the most accurate in discernment regarding this topic, due to authentic texts and unadulterated intellects. He will see that their statements are established upon the texts and the intellect.

Due to this, they were united, not differing, established, not deficient. Those who opposed the Salaf and the imaams did not understand the reality of their statements. So they did not know the reality of the texts and the intellects, so they started to go in different directions and they began to differ about the Book, so they became opponents of the Book . Indeed Allaah the Exalted said,"

 

 

"And verily, those who disputed as regards the Book are in extreme dissension."(2:176)

[Conscious Manipulation]

salaam,

 

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking Baashi but I'll gauge at an answer anyway.

 

I think it's natural for man to ask questions related to his existance; why am I here, what's my purpose in life. I think it's equally natural for man to employ rational thinking in his attempts to find answers to these questions. Of course, this requires that we limit ourselves to what we can perceive and sense, namely, the universe, life and ourselves. If we do this then we understand that everything we can sense and perceive is an effect of a cause and we easily (since we're predisposed) come to the conclusion that there's a creator for everything we sense and perceive.

 

Allah encourages us in the Quran to contemplate and come to believe in His existance rather than just asking us to "believe". He says: " Behold in the creation of the heaves and the earth and the alteration of night and day there are indeed signs for men of understanding." Also the prophet was reported to have said; "An hour spend in contemplation is worth more than spending awhole night in prayer."

 

I think the danger lies more in not using rational thinking correctly, by failing to recognize our limitations, than it does with using it.

 

To answer your question: Why can’t one be satisfied with what the revealed knowledge has to say about the particular question?

 

I think this only happens when one is intellectually convinced of Allah and the validity of the revealed knowledge.

[Baashi]

Salafi,

Many thanks bro for posting Ibna Taymiyah take on this.

 

CM,

This post was an effort to have nomads discuss the issue and warn them the pitfalls of speculative philosophy. For Muslims (those who made up their minds and find Islam to be the right religion), the path is clear and they are less likely to mix up their standards for truth with the ones speculated by wise men.

 

Contemplation is good and we are encouraged, as you rightly noted, to make use of our instinctive faculty and rationalize and reason. But we are also warned to be wary of the whispers of the devil lest we caught in circular reasoning in a bid to understand questions that are beyond our human understanding. For instance, who created Allah and how He came to being in the first place. No amount of contemplation, reasoning, and rationalizing will get you answers for this one. Couple that with the fact that human instinctive faculty vary from person to person. The only knowledge that can grant you inner peace on this sort of inquiry is faith itself. Therefore one has to distinguish religious knowledge from the knowledge gleaned from speculative philosophy.

 

Sophist,

I think what you are asking is whether reason is universal noh? Reason is universal but the Truth attained through human reasoning is not universal since human instinctive faculty varies from person to person. There are moral standards that are universal and there are truths like the math 2 + 2 = 4 that is eternal. In any event, I’m not an expert on this and if I’m erred my Allah forgive me. All I wanted to say is beware philosophy for it takes you to non-chattered waters.

[Sophist]

Reason is a tool to lead as to the path of objective reality; I guess that is what you are saying? Oh if man varies in his mental capacity how then man can have uniform reasoning ability (I am deprived of sugar this morning, I am fasting so if I make no sense to you then please be patient; plus I just got burned on some deal I was working on)?

 

2+2= 4, can you prove that by using reason? Perhaps you can demonstrate that please!!

 

Perhaps you were ought to say that TRUTH is objective and universal but reason is subjective, one reasons in a certain way to reach certitude (subjectively that is); but whether we think or not reality will never be altered.

 

Indeed we should al be vigilant of illusory thinking, the mind is errs habitually—how can you trust some nerves write the sagacious philosopher Kant for we are often deceived by our senses. But Philosophy a method of exercising the mind, like some of us frequent the gym in order to shype up other prefer not the refinement of the body but that of the mind. Like the gym, if you over do it or use certain instruments you will get injured mentally.

[juba]

Originally posted by Sophist:

2+2= 4, can you prove that by using reason? Perhaps you can demonstrate that please!!

 

isn't the cause of mathimatics reason?

[Reality Check]

This seems like a good discussion.

 

A little to philosophical for me to respond....but interesting enough to read...

[Mutakalim]

Sophist wrote: Perhaps you were ought to say that TRUTH is objective and universal but reason is subjective, one reasons in a certain way to reach certitude (subjectively that is); but whether we think or not reality will never be altered.

 

Reason is subjective say you? Oh well, I once found sophistry refreshing, but no more! Now you see, obfuscations, and indeed deceptions, inevitably arise when there is no restriction on equivocation . I have not the slightest inkling as to what you mean by the word "reason"; however, should you mean by it the employment of logical principles to statements, then it is not "subjective".

 

P.S. One cannot the change the meaning of a word at will. Words are not magic.