Integrating Muslims in the West, what does it mean for the Ummah?

[JustCause]

OG_Girl we don't need School by Mutakallem , he will give a lot of home work to do.

 

Maybe you can teach us

[QUANTUM LEAP]

Not trying to stump you folks, just want to know the answer....will someone put this to bed and forget the ping pong. Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society. Now will someone tell us if our religion caters for happenings like what happened to this guy. Personally we need to clarify whether in this case the man deserved to die or not and possibly mention where it is said that act is justifiable in our deen. Facts are ALLAH's arguments; we should be careful never to misunderstand or pervert them.

[Alle-ubaahne]

NGONGE, Nice try, mr. professor! Let's postpone the war on words for tomorrow, saturday. lol

[NGONGE]

EDITED. POINT MADE.

[Salafi_Online]

Ngonge ya habibi

perhaps you say this in spite, or it is one of your usual rants, but cutting and pasting the works of my superiors is indeed a praiseworthy act! You should try it sometimes, that way your depressing opinions wouldn’t be flimsier then a spider’s quarters!

“ So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [surah 21:7].

 

This ayah is for all the parrots like myself, Alhamdulillah, im sure your above it though!

 

 

Ya Allah, hii ni kama kupigia mbuzi guitar! You still don't get the point do you? At some point in my life, I used to be like you, criticising Islamic scholars, thinkers, intellectuals, Muftis etc., call them what you want here. I used to criticise people like Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab, ibn Baaz, Al-Albanee et al. and all "my words" were from other very distinguished scholars. I found solace in the fact that I wasn't actually the one criticising them (that scholars with immense credentials had done the job for us), the same defense you are using here on these boards.

(edit)

agreed; i respect that, however you can not blame others if they do not follow your Footsteps! if they decide to speak of others using the Scholars speech!

 

What is the purpose of an Islamic Fatawa? Is it for the commoners or the scholars? What is the purpose of scholars authoring refutations since the general masses cannot utilize them, because according to you they would be committing an enormous sin(slandering others)? Viking could it be that the scholars who write refutation only do so for their own sake, whereby no one else profit? Do you not see how senseless this view is?

 

Saxib I commend you for the following words, had you pen them when you first decided take a ride in this threat, our little skirmish would have ended awhile back! But your appalling (will not say accusation) but Gross misunderstanding began a game of tennis! you see my dear brother you accused me of a great offence that I did not appreciate!

 

“But I'd like to believe that I am wiser now for I abtsain from indulging in such discussions because they aren't in my (or anyone's) interest. That it only causes division, hatred and unecessary friction between Muslims. If you want to keep on doing what you are doing, that's upto you mate.â€

[Viking]

Ya Viking, how interesting, a while back you were brave and persistent enough to spew your gross lies chaotically under the umbrella of defendingâ€an intellectualâ€! and now look at this, it was all based on your Feelings! Habibi, YA Habibi you found solace uh, are your desires a legitimate proof that one cannot use the refutation of a scholar to enlighten others? The notion of someone being guilty of sins (slander & attacking) by conveying the fatwah of a shaykh to others is frankly pathetic!

It is not "lies" or any "umbrella". I told you to stop attacking scholars/intellectuals et al. because it causes nothing but fitna. You take your fatwas from Saudi Arabia, another one takes them from Cairo, others from Qom etc. If others did the same, we'd be in a big mess that we are unable to handle. I might not agree with ibn Baz in some issues but I will not stand back while someone 'cuts n pastes' from other sites where another scholar "disagreeing with him" and calls him apostate.

 

For you, it is a simple matter of "dacwa", but you'll find another person's dacwa offensive when they come with fatwas from outside Saudi Arabia that are critical of Saudi scholars (calling them apostates). At the end of the day, we'll find ourselves in hot soup! Many people have tried to warn you, but your obstinate nature decided to make it a game of "tennis", that's your chosing mate.

 

 

Saxib I commend you for the following words, had you pen them when you first decided take a ride in this threat, our little skirmish would have ended awhile back! But your spiteful antics began a game of tennis! you see my dear brother you accused me of a great offence that I did not appreciate!

'Gross lies', 'spiteful antics', you call them what you want. Whatever words people chose to use when adressing you on this issue, the message from practically everyone here has been quite clear for some time now, STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING! I'm glad you finally got the message and sincerely hope that there won't be similar "skirmishes" in the future.

[Salafi_Online]

A fitnah perhaps, but it’s far from being an attack or a slander! IF someone came here and posted something about AbdulWahhab, or the Wahhabis (seen so many times) in this case their assertions would be either right or wrong, so we scrutinize their post, if it’s irrefutable we accept and submit to their assertions or ignore them, however if our findings prove otherwise then their post is open to discussion. If one has the ability to refute and dispel his rhetoric, we engage him and try to refute his points (in an handsome manner ofcourse) so if his work is proven wrong then it’s imperative that we label his work slanderous and Malicious!

 

Finally saxib( I know Ngonge said this already but its worth a mention) this is a public board, you can not sensor the opinions of others because you simply do not agree with what they said about someone !You know some of the nomads here have expressed their position on the wahhabi/salafi group, they are free to express their feelings, however if I find the urge to entertain their opinions I do so, if not I don’t really care what some wise guy says about salafiyah let him sink in his ignorance! Hope you take the same approach the wiser and safer approach!

 

i say this so that in the near future you do not become another Sahal! Safe yourself the trouble saxib, this is cyber space after all!!!!

[QUANTUM LEAP]

“One of the basic causes for all the trouble in the world today is that people talk too much and think too little. They act impulsively without thinking. I always try to think before I talk.â€..

 

Debates generally are supposed to be about opinions and counter opinions based on what one feels is right or feels right to use. I couldn’t help myself when I responded to this thread as there a slight problem of miscommunication coupled with a whole lot of misunderstandings. To be or not to be is one line I used to here in one of the Romeo and Juliet plays but in this case it’s more like be or be thought of a lesser believer. Strangely enough scholars are just human beings and fatwa’s are made by different schools of thought. The Islamic religion is now under going a lot of changes and it is said that at some stage the Islamic religion will be divided into 72/3 (not sure) sects. So I would say that everyone has to question what human beings who are fallible in nature have to say or write. One can follow blindly what others write or question them, that’s why Allah gave us the brains to think and to seek knowledge.

There is no difference of opinion amongst Muslim schools that the religion of Allah is Islam; that the only way to know Islam is through the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet SAW; and that the Book of Allah is what is known as the Quran, without any "addition" or "deletion". The difference is in the interpretation of some of the verses of the Quran; and in believing or not believing some of the sunnah as genuine; or in its interpretation.

 

Why not let people differ about their answers to the great mysteries of the Islamic religion. Let each seek one's own way to the highest, to one's own sense of supreme loyalty in life, one's ideal of life. When we blindly follow what people adopt in a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. First thing for any Muslim is to learn and we can only learn by questioning then perhaps get enlightened. For those who know, do what is right and never question people’s faith rather teach them what you think is right for no one has the right to question ones faith as long as it doesn’t interfere with your own ideals and beliefs. "He who learns, acts in accordance to what he learns, and teaches for the sake of Allah, is ranked in the Kingdom of Allah as 'a great man'. It shall be said, 'He learned for the sake of Allah, acted for the sake of Allah and taught for the sake of Allah.'" Learning especially religion is a life long affair and we must strive for a better understanding. For example this Eid I was a little surprised that some brothers prayed on Saturday and others on Sunday. I can’t conclude that because the days differed one or the other was not doing what is right and aren’t believers. I also have been to many mosques where you find different view points depending on the background of the people and what they were taught. Ultimately if they followed the teachings of the Prophet SAW and his Sunna then one wouldn’t go wrong. Having faith is to do right. It is to love, it is to serve, it is to think, it is to be humble and sometimes agree to disagree but not to force what you think is right down anyone’s throat. One is entitled to debate but I don’t think one is right to put down others for what he or she thinks is right.

 

Ngonge it’s true that sometimes arguments that have neither head nor tail sometimes are counter productive and to question one faith or call him names for not agreeing can’t be right for only Allah can be the judge. We shouldn’t let what little we know and learn from others blind us. We would be better of understanding, analyzing and when we can give our own point of view. As we all know only Allah can judge not mere mortals.

[Blessed]

Salaams, (I really do come with wishes of peace)

 

 

I reckon it’s safe for me to drop my labo gambo. This is an irresistibly good topic

 

I think that in the British context integration of Muslims is different to assimilation. This is due to the strength of the Muslim community of Britain rather then the diplomacy of our government, who seem to be mimicking American antagonism more than ever.

 

I just wanted to share this piece of news with you all. In light of the contents of --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4033667.stm

 

and this second article; http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3596047.

 

I agree to the call for integration to a certain degree; We need to look at things from our hosts perspective, many of them don’t understand Muslim and Islam and are bound to fear the unknown; especially in the light of the current terrorist environment.

 

I think we as a community would benefit a great deal from the multi-faith dialogue. People want to know if Islam is a religion of terror, they want to know whether Muslims should be trusted. So, how can we teach of our deen, show them that we are normal peaceful people, of we refuse to speak their languages, go to their schools and have any form of dialogue? The following constitutes a segment in a long article found the in the CRE website.

 

For the full article follow this link:

 

http://www.cre.gov.uk/media/nr_arch/2004/s041116.html

 

The problem is that I know this, and you know it. But against a background of tabloid sensationalism, hostility from the far right and the difficulty of winning attention in the public sphere for any story which does not involve an MP’s private life, these truths are still unheard by many Britons.

We know from CRE surveys that the vast majority of people in this country – over 80% - do not have a Muslim acquaintance amongst their circle of friends. So their image of Muslims is what they see on TV and read in the papers. This is unjust, but it is the world we live in. That is why one part of the solution is to repeat the same message time and again in the knowledge that every time we say it, maybe a new set of ears will pick it up.

But this is not enough. I am not here to say that the responsibility lies solely with British Muslims. That would be unfair, and also just plain wrong. The movements towards greater integration are the responsibility of all of us.

 

 

[Alle-ubaahne]

Asalaamu Caleykum,

 

I guess its time to proceed the debate of integration and assimilation. And here I will quickly discuss about the fact that integration is not the primery tool and instrument for us, (Somalis) to succeed in the west. I believe, the loss of our cultural and religious values lies under the disguise of integration and assimilation to a sociaty that doesn't have the value that is compatible to our standardship of values.

 

The west in general don't have an acceptable cultural elements for us to integrate as far as I know, and if any of you knows other than that, you can educate now. But before we even discuss about integration, why we shouldn't consider where the west stands our unwilling integration to their sociaties? I think its very important to look at the initial reason that has brought many of us here which is the forced displacements of our homeland, due to the civil unrest. There are many reasons to believe that our displacements were mainly responsible by the west, but am afraid that is not the debate at hand, therefore, we may shed some light on that issue later.

 

Most of us came here without having any legitimate sociatel approval or permission to settle other than the western governments' interest driven by the demand of major corporate company's need to bolster their economy with cheap and slavery-wage workers, as immigrants like us who had contributed to their growing ecomony in part. If you check places in the west where somalis are concentrated in large numbers, you find the work force sector is doing much better than the other sectors. A prime example for that is the State of Minnesotta, in the U.S.

 

Prior to the arrival of somali immigrants in the west, there were many black and muslim minorities who were refused for many reasons to integrate to the dominant culture, and their historical experience is self-evidant in terms of the different stages as being disliked and unwanted memories of setbacks they had to pass through for the mere idea of integration.

 

The west has being the sameness of meaning with the term racism, and for instance, every time the white America took fight to other nations, it has to deploy thousands of blacks for the mere and yet undelivered promises of integration, among other things, and equal opportunity. Bear in mind that these blacks were Christians who have done everything to qualify the unexisting category of white integrationism, but finaly become very dissatisfied of their deceptions.

 

Now, if we come to analize the proposed integration of the America's think tank institute of international and strategic studies, there is no doubt that their intention is no different to that which they decietfuly refused the African-americans. However one attempts to seduce and flirt with the easy acceptance of western culture, the undeniable result will be something of an automatic disposition of racialism and rejection. And don't tell me there is any distinguishable dissimilarities in nature between christian whites in various corners around the world.

 

But we have to ask why we (Somalians) resist this offer of integrationism. First of all, our culture is very much twisted with Islam, and given our historical resistance of any foriegn culture, we can never exchange a healthy culture for a decayed one. Personaly I consider the somali culture very healthy, because it has no outside influences; its authentic and original. If one assumes the Islamic elements of our culture as an Arab influences, then I should ask that person to bring forth the cultural differences of Arabs in one hand and the somalis on the other, by detaching Islam.

 

Do you see my point? Oh yeah, we apparently differ culturaly. But anyway every culture that is being characterized with Islam is a perfect culture, because Islam is a perfect religion. It perfects everything. Therefore, our culture before it was dilluted by the notion of tribalism was a perfect one, and I think we're on the final realizations to purify ourselves from such tribal stagnations.

 

Secondly, our culture deserves to be preserved and even embraced by others (non-somalis) because of its rich values from many aspects. I understand how few narrow minded individuals among us are linking failure in the west as a lack of integration, which I think is a gross lie, but integration was not even one of the slightest reasons that enabled the first generation of Korean Immigrants in America to become financially independant. It was indeed a hard work plus productive efforts to sustain for their lives in a country of racism.

 

I personaly have experienced some brothers who solely stayed here in America for less than three years and successfuly leading a productive life that is free from working any company; they are self-employers in definition. Does that amaze you even when they can't speak english, and yet interacting others through sometimes symbolic gestures or sign languages! Ehehe, runtii.

 

However, integration is probably the interest of those who are inferior and can't overcome the fear and worrisome state in mind. I don't think anyone with a sound integrity and morale can go ahead and accept the meaningless membership of integration. Certainly not me!

 

We don't need integration, we need an integrity preservation so as to preserve ourselves with spiritual superiority. Spiritual Superiority? That is taqwaa, God consciousness; its what differentiates between the desirable qualities in men and the undesirable qualities.

 

N.B: Can I ask Professor NGONGE to englight us with his expereinces from white/foriegn integrationism?

[NGONGE]

^^^^

 

Once you’re done waffling away about your ill-defined Somali culture and pride in Islam, maybe you can provide the proofs for your earlier statements, dear Mullah.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Yes, my respected Professor in the above.

 

It seems that you stripped out from yourself the priviledge for being a proud Muslim and Somali. Too bad, indeed. Plus, I don't appreciate glancing at the true color you display now, but please allow us to have the opportunity to benefit from your expertise as a longtime integration-striken advocator. I know you can share with us something here, come on now Mr. NGONGE, present your case with some rationality.

 

Am I pestering you, or dragging your immaculate reputation on the ground? As you said everytime in your postings, "its all about words on the screen". Consider this request and let your composure down while educating us the implications of western integration. Also, inform us please if there is any concievable advantage in integration and how long does it take one to fully develop in western influence after exposed to integration?

 

Who can be mentaly prone to integration, ignorant people, kids women or the miseducated sycophants? I have questions to ask after you post your subsequent reactions, and please do so objectively to make us understand the pros and cons of integrationism since you are the expert.

 

Your Dump Student, in need of your help

[NGONGE]

Heh. My dear little fraud. You keep twisting, turning and wriggling out of a simple request, saaxib! What could be the matter I wonder!

How could it be that somebody with absolute conviction could not stand up for what he professes to believe in? Are you absolutely sure that Islam and Somalnimo is what you advocate? Sure these ideas are all yours and nobody helped you form them? This is something you’ve given a lot of thought to I assume!

 

Take your time; don’t rush with the waffle, saaxib. I’m a very patient man. I’ll wait for you to organise your thoughts and return with a worthwhile debate and proofs.

 

One thing though, as much as I would love to chase you around this thread, I find it distasteful that you would reduce a grave matter like someone’s faith into a joke. I know you’re a fraud and it’s obvious you’re being a troll here, however, you seem to have chosen the wrong subject to make a game of, saaxib.

There are a couple of pointless subjects in the women’s section, care to resume this little game there, son?

[Alle-ubaahne]

I wonder what is your faith, Professor. You call me fraud or fraudulist, cajiib, did you support that allegation against me? I don't want to insult you here, I know the rules and regulations of Somaliaonline. I respect those brothers who supervise the content of the forums, as J11 and his respected leutanents in the line of service. I don't want to be terminated from the system; may be you do, because I can see your vigelant to write unwisely and get away with it.

 

You enjoy the impossibilities, oh yeah, that is true especially when you act as the unquestionable figure around these premises. May be you joined here long ago and had never seen anyone confronting your ostensibly weak arguments. Well, I advice professor to never batrey your weak and fragile propositions.

 

You accuse me believing in Islam and being a proud Somali, do so, I welcome your dissatisfactions of my culture, but show me your borrowed western culture. Am sure you are not even loyal enough to defend western culture. Can you examine your weak and confused bondage to the west. May be you can do some self-help programs.

 

You said 'am patient', tell me why you throwing the cheap vulgar at me, by calling me a fraud. I understand your unrefined remarks are never worth of attention. For now on, I should take the gallant path for not reacting to any of your boorish statements. Because you've being a repititious and weary advocate for integration.

 

Ok, Professor. am not going to complian about you, I am man enough to disregard your western pretentiousness. And I don't either blame or mock because of where you had fallen in, it was the result of an early inferiority which has became subject to western culturations. There are many former Somalians who exactly took your course. They are all one thing in common; they suffer from authenticity and loss of both mental and physical identity. Aan kuu soo duceeyo, saaxiib.

 

I am simply trying to examine your culpable fragility and weak arguments, and don't let that hasten to ruin you fabuluos day at the office, ok .

[NGONGE]

I call you a fraud, my dear charlatan because you are one, saaxib. You can blabber on all you like; you can question my faith, nationality and principles too. But, unless and until you address the earlier statements in your first reply to me, you leave me with no choice but to consider you a fraud.

 

I explained it before and I’ll explain it again. If you decide to make generalised statements regarding religion, come with proof. Your word alone is not good enough. You questioned my faith based on some qualified comments that I made yet you refuse to show your source for believing that you’re right. Could it be that you actually don’t know and these brush-off comments were nothing but the hasty actions of a misinformed man?

 

Like the amateur fraud that you are, when Viking joined in with what he thought was correct, you dismissed it and asked for proofs! The cheek!

 

Anyway, lets not go over old ground (if you have to, just go and read the thread again). Now, we are at the point where you present us with your reasons and proofs, saaxib. Think you can do that without questioning the faith of anyone or waffling on about Somali pride and other irrelevant things?

 

I have faith in you; I believe that despite your obstinate tendencies, you do actually have a sound mind. Like I said, I’m a patient man. I’ll set here waiting for your false pride to fade off and the fraudster in you to be banished. You can do it, I know you can.

 

I await a positive reply.