Integrating Muslims in the West, what does it mean for the Ummah?

[NGONGE]

Alle-ubaahne,

 

Far be it for me to go on defending the Ethiopians or their government here, saaixb. However, I think people like the author of the article you’ve posted, exist everywhere without any influence from outside forces. This person looks like he’s proud to be a Somali but he has a problem with “religious fanaticsâ€. I will not completely assume that he’s anti-Islam, though his words seem to paint him as such. His whole article appears to be one long rant against the Salafis! I’m not sure if you have been following the Western (and many Islamic) press but attacking the Salafi’s (Wahabis) is the done thing these days. The author of the article you’ve posted, like many other Somalis, seems to have picked up the Western rhetoric and added a bit of his Somali flavour to it, by implying that every “wadaad†is a Salafi! You can clearly see that the man has no knowledge of his deen, saaxib. This is NOT “integration’s†fault, as you seemed to hint at the start of your post, this is entirely the individual’s failing. I don’t wish or see any need to discuss this article in any detail.

 

Now, back to your Ayan Hirsi contention. I see that you declined the opportunity to shed some light into your rejection of my earlier words, so I’m left with no option but to make some assumptions about this rejection and, hopefully, clarify my words.

 

I seriously dislike discussing Islam on an interactive discussion board where people’s whims, desires and affiliations sometimes discolour any good intentions they might have. I try as much as I can to avoid being a teacher lest I mislead others. Still, I will attempt to explain my words and the context they were written in.

 

Ayan Hirsi and Salman Rushdie were supposed to be Muslims. As I understand it, and though there are some disputes amongst the scholars on how to treat “former†Muslims, the popular view is that a “Murtad†(i.e. someone who has forsaken Islam) is punished by Murder. But, even then, there are still many conditions and qualifications attached to such a rule. This brother, is my understanding of it and as I said in my earlier post, I could be wrong. I await correction and may Allah forgive me if I am.

 

The Dutch film director, was not a Muslim, has never been a Muslim and showed no signs of wanting to be one. In short, he was not a “Murtadâ€. He was a non-believer. Need I explain the meaning of non-believer?

 

I’ll repeat, I am not the most knowledgeable of people on this subject and I would not want you to take my words (as the saying goes) as gospel! You can go and ask the people of knowledge, in fact, you should. From the little I know however, Islam does not encourage or condone the killing of non-believers. When it does, it gives very specific reasons for doing so and explains, clearly, the situation where killing is permissible.

 

The Dutch film director is not the first ever non-believer to criticise Islam. He’s not the first to insult the prophet (SAW). The early days of Islamic history paint images of events much worse than a modern Dutch film director making an ill-advised movie that belittles Islam; for 13 years did the prophet (SAW) and his companions suffer at the hands of non-believers (some of them close relations!). The Muslims back then were a minority too. Did they murder Abu Jahal for his transgressions against the prophet? Surely they would have had the best ever reason to do so and “defend†Islam (there is even a whole verse in the Quran dedicated to Abu Jahal). This Dutch film director, as appalling and sickening his movie was, is no Abu Jahal. His murder serves no purpose whatsoever. It rather jeopardises the position of, and causes difficulties for the Muslim minority in the Netherlands!

 

I’m hoping that my words are clear now and need no further explaining. If you think me wrong, I’ll gladly receive your corrections. If you agree, we can move on, or rather I should say return, to the subject of integration. Is it possible to “integrate†if you kill everyone that badmouths your religion? Are you of the opinion that Muslims SHOULD not reside in non-believers lands? Should we always applaud the actions of Muslims purely on the flimsy fact that they’re Muslim?

 

 

Finally, this is a discussion forum; people of all persuasions and beliefs are likely to post in these pages. On the odd occasions that someone posts something we deem controversial or anti-Islam, we should not froth at the mouth and insult these people. If they can’t articulate their words clearly and are only doing it to cause offence, we can get the moderators to delete their drivel. If, however, their words are clear, articulate and unambiguous, we should either engage them or (if we don’t like such discussions) ignore them. Bullying someone into silence is unjust, unfair and probably (qualifying it again just for the trigger happy amongst you) UNISLAMIC.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Salafi_Da3wa:

You have some powers there, Are you sure I have not read any of his books? or listened to and read the refutations of the 10+ scholars! See when your not sure of something, its best to ask first,then remain patient until your given a response! seems your convinced though!

You must have missed the part where I said... "Correct me if I am wrong and please don't be shy; you haven't read Fi Zilal al-Qur'an and Macalim fi'l-tareeq (In The Shade of The Qur'an) but still endorse the view of "other respected scholars'" verdict on his ideas and works?"

 

This is where you were to come in and say ..."I have read his books and agree with Sheikh X's accusations , or alternatively, I haven't read any of his books but agree with anything Sheikh X says since he is a such a revered scholar .

 

 

 

Viking perhaps my words and Shaykh Muqbil do not carry weight in your sight, if such is the case, then please Ask Brother Nur! since I have discussed this with him before!

Neither Nur nor Shaykh Muqbil will get me to slander someone else, especially deceased Muslim intellectuals. The last time about, you were slandering the late Maulana Mawdoodi and Nur asked you how many of his books you had read. Your elusive answer said it all!

[Salafi_Online]

Bismillah

 

It is frankly meaningless to extrapolate your initial request to be “ CORRECTED †which was based on mere conjecture, devoid of knowledge,Take heed of Allah's admonishment ; “guessing is no substitute for the truthâ€(53:28) and then your second assertion based on certainty, “ even without reading their works just because another learned mortal criticised him “ hope you see my concern!

 

 

Ruminate on the word “slanderâ€, one can not consider the analysis and exposure of a scholar who studied, read and examined the works of an individual as “Slanderâ€, such statement is unjust and a gross lie!

[Alle-ubaahne]

Mr. NGONGE,

 

It seems that you are legitimizing something that is very much in contradiction with the teachings of Islam. In Islam, there is no dispute whatsoever as to the treatment of Murtad. The quran and the Sunnah speak precisely about the exact punitive justice for murtad without any discrepancies. And my question to you is how come your little knowledge doesn’t relate to any references on the bases of Islam? Where did you get that?

 

According to the wide spread consensus of the Ulumaa, it was said, †The punishment prescribed by the shari'a for apostacy is death.†Check the many books of the major scholars under the subject of apostasy, you find numerous instances where there is clearly ruled the punishment of the murtad. So far, I can’t see where you took the so-called disputes between the scholars on the issue of murtad punishments.

 

Let’s not talk about views or what some people think of something outside the Islamic premises. I don’t mind talking about the analysis of certain views, but the subject we’re engaging here is at religious perspectives, and there is no room for us to exercise our surmises and personal point of view. Therefore, its always a wise thing to refrain from such mischievous falsehoods over Islam. This is a warning for you and I, in case we mistakenly overlook the consequences of that.

 

Now, you said, “The film maker was not a Muslim†therefore, he, “is not the first ever non-believer to criticise Islamâ€. I found two gross mistakes from here. First you implied the gaal as a peaceful one, and dismissed his hostile warring blasphemy. And secondly, you painted his major blasphemy as nothing but a simplistic by extenuating and minimizing his blasphemy as criticism. I think you know English more than me, but tell me why you choose criticism instead of blasphemy?

 

Or may be in this case you are a self promoted human rights activist, which I don't mind, but please, speak of the truth and be objective. The gaal has done what even many non-believers viewed as a major violation, of course, in any religion and law. Look my brother, in physics there is a newtonian theory which says every action has a subsequent reaction. I can say the film has a purpose and so do the killing.

 

You mentioned Amar ibn Hisham, as known as Abu Jahal, while comparing to the assassinated filmmaker. First of all, Abu jahal lived in a period when Islam was in its infancy, and according to Imam Bukhari, Allah’s prophet was protected from the harms of Abu Jahal, and his likes. He once attempted to harm the prophet, and on his way to do so, he saw the hell before the prophet. Secondly, when the prophet, (scw) was in Makkah, the focus of Islam was concentrated on Tawheed, i.e. the pure monotheism. Later in Medinah was the time when the jurisdictions were revealed and along that period were introduced the punishment, among other things, of those who throw blasphemy/critical insults to Allah (sw) or his prophet, (scw).

 

Therefore, this filmmaker(gaal)has never lived in that period where Islam was ineffective in the Arabian Peninsula and there was no jurisdiction for such things, which I think your comparison is asking that to happen, rather things had occurred in a time when everything is in place, and its only in the responsibility of Muslims to act accordingly in the dictates of Islam (some did it, and others failed as the test goes on) under any circumstances, no matter what the odds are. And by the way, I don’t think it’s acceptable to throw a blasphemy and get away without facing any legal reactions.

 

Legal reactions? Yes, in one of the famous narrations, it says, whoever can stop a wrong doing, let them do so by their hands, if not, by their tongues, and if not, by their hearts, which is the least of imaan. this I believe applies to the case at hand.

 

But anyway, there are both legal and historical precedents in Islam for such cases, as the killing concerns. I would suggest you to find out for your self and at least read the biography of the Prophet, in relation to his orders against the poet in Meddina who used to penetrate his critical blasphemy to the Prophet and Islam in the form of poems.

 

Finaly, I am not judging here anything, am simply relating the Islamic judgment on this issue. I guess I can be wrong on certain things, but am afraid your assertions in the above are anywhat correct.

[NGONGE]

I really am not sure how to take this post of yours, saaxib. You are not telling me what your problem is here. You’re just nit-picking my words and choosing the bits that you can putdown! Fine, do that; tell me that I’m following my “desiresâ€. But, practise what you preach and give me YOUR authentic proofs to show how I am doing so. Don’t tell me what YOU think, tell me what YOU know, saaxib. Give me your proofs (see how tedious this game can be?).

 

You see; there is a simple formula to follow in a “debateâ€, brother. I say something; you disagree with it; YOU explain your disagreements with proofs. As simple as one, two, three! So far, all you’ve done is dance around my words, show your indignations and hint darkly about the weakness of my faith! It really is not good enough and quite offensive.

 

Had I found a bit of doubt, indecision or room for manoeuvre with your replies (all of your replies on this thread), I would have continued on with the discussion. However, I don’t see any signs of a “maybe†there, your words are final. There is total conviction on your absolute correctness! At first, I thought it might have been an unfortunate choice of words. The second time I saw it, I blamed it on anger! Now, I’m not sure what to make of it and how to DEBATE with someone who seems to have made his mind about the subject and those he’s debating with!

 

If you are genuine in your participation in this thread, then, please, post something worthy of a reply and discussion. Don’t nitpick on simple words such as criticise and blaspheme (words that don‘t make a difference to the thrust of my argument by the way)! Don’t be lazy! Share the burden. State your argument clearly and quit this bad habit of yours of hitching a ride on other people’s points.

 

Do you believe that any non-believer living in a non-believing land that insults Islam should be killed? Is this your personal view or the Islamic one? Do you have proof? Can you carry your argument without clutching at whatever little straws I’ve left behind for you to pick up?

 

 

(I know I say this all the time, but TAKE YOUR TIME).

[Alle-ubaahne]

Look saaxiib, I fully respect you as a muslim, and somali brother. But I oppose the entire philosophy you stand for. You think the killing of that criminal was wrong, according to your western-minded perception, and I think it was absulately the right thing to do. Because he offended our religion, period.

 

Not only that is my opinion, but its also how our religion rules such cases. If you don't believe me, ask the people of knowledge. Its obvious that you are more than wrong here. And indeed we are fortunate that your position is marginal and off the mark from the majority of muslim community.

 

Now, let's come back to the issue of integration and assimilation and allow others to proceed the debate. I think its unsatisfactory to further delve in our disagreements, because of the underlying fundamental differences of our views. Can I say ask you one thing? Are you one of the so-called highly integrated new wave of somalis to the dominant western culture? How do you see yourself, less than somali and more like western?

 

Because everything you say revolves the western values and how their thought pattern functions. I don't mean to offend you here, I simply would like to know where you stand from the Somali culture.

[NGONGE]

Oh, you’re waffling again and talking about my “western†values. I’ve given you the opportunity to clear your points and prove your argument but you didn’t oblige. You instead, came back with some rhetoric about it being the “opinion†of the majority of Muslims. Where are your proofs for such an opinion? Why should I take your meaningless words for it?

 

Saaxib, if you’re going to criticise the words of others, make sure you come laden with proofs and refutations. Brushing aside my words as being “brainwashed†and influenced by western culture is insulting and idiotic. To try and qualify it with empty words about “respect†is not enough. Put up or shut up, saaxib.

 

Not wanting to get in the way of your tried and tested method of passing judgment on others, let me tell you that if I was influenced by any cultures or am guilty of following any views, then those would be the views of the Arabs! Whom I’ve spent most of my life amongst. But, like I said, don’t let that little bit of information change your absolute conviction, O fount of all knowledge.

 

Now, care to get serious and give us your real views on this whole thread? I’m not going to let you go until you finally start to communicate in an acceptable manner, you see. You’re already articulate and fluent enough, so there is no excuse for your shabby and half-witted contributions. :mad:

 

Give it another try. I hereby dare you to answer all my questions without making one single assumption, but, rather address the points made and contribute with “healthy†and complete arguments of your own. Think you can do that? Don’t worry, I’ll help you along if the need arises (as it invariably will).

[Viking]

Salafi,

What you and I say (that is negative) about a dead intellectual is slander, because that kind of thing is 'above our league'. Notice how I didn't use the word 'slander' in describing the manner in which the scholar criticised Sayid Qutb? There is a reason for that.

 

In English, when someone starts by saying "correct me if I'm wrong...", it usually means that they are going to make an assumption (or a statement that you might not agree with). It doesn't mean that what the person said is "based on mere conjecture, devoid of knowledgehas already made up their mind", as you so eloquently but erroneously put it. It is a kind of invitation for you to prove the person wrong (which you haven't).

 

And if you have read all (or most of) Sayid Qutb's works, just say so. Stop being so damn evasive, for this is getting monotonous now!

 

 

Alle Ubahanane,

I think that (atleast according to Abu Hanifa), a non-Muslim cannot be senteced to death for blasphemy. Women (like in the case of Ayan Hirsi) are NOT to be killed according to Islamic jurisprudence, they are given a chance to reiterate and then imprisoned if that doesn't help.

[Alle-ubaahne]

ehehehehehe, that is funny, indeed. So you grew up in Arabia! Very interesting. Fiiri saaxiib, why do somalis who were raised in Arab countries have always the tendency to intermingle suddenly with the whites and come up this western-wanna-be attitude? Walaahi been makuu sheegaayo, I see the worst somalis are those who grew up in Arabia because they whole-heartedly assimilate to the western cultures! Am talking about a large disproportional number of born in arab or influenced somalis.

 

I read this book, the autobiography of Edward Said, a palestinian thinker, written by a western educated somali scholar of Arabian background. The first thing you can detect of his writtings is the love affair he has with the western culture. I wonder why this excessive inclination towards western culture exists with somali arabs and not others. Does this inferiority reflects the treatments of real arab experiences?

 

tell me saaxiib, walaahi am very amazed how simple our people of arabian backgrounds are. Somalians are known for one thing: superior resistance of other cultures. I don't hate Arabs, and have no any problem with Arabs, i.e. the muslim arabs, but I don't like following their culture. We have Islam in common, and also certain cultural similarities. But I think its part of the compelled assimilations that many of your fellow arab-influenced folks had inherited which follows in the same trend when they arrive in western territories.

 

Saaxiib, you finally disclosed yourself, and that draws me some laughter, lol. By the way, I don't want to perpetuate this criticism-like observations, but since you are like my brother, please revive your Somalinimo and be couragious enough to develop the typical superior self-confidence that were attributed to us, as sociaty.

 

Ok, Mr. NGONGE, Professor of Everything. Its all about to remind your fading esteem and long-forgotten somali culture.

 

Nabadeey

[Alle-ubaahne]

Haye vicking,

 

Where abu Hanifa is saying that, no killing, just imprisonment? I guess you can't prove what Prof. NGONGE has failed to prove. I will listen whatever you present, but be ready for any rejections if that will not comform the purest sense of Islam.

[Salafi_Online]

What you and I say (that is negative) about a dead intellectual is slander, because that kind of thing is 'above our league'.

Notice how I didn't use the word 'slander' in describing the manner in which the scholar criticised Sayid Qutb? There is a reason for that

.

Ya miskeen, did i say something that conflicts with the Shaykh's fatwah?I think not, i merely pasted his kaalam? So let me get this straight, what the scholar said is not “ Slander or an attack†however if anyone like myself uses his fatwah and quotes him precisely; granted, it may not be word for word, but precise meaning, then its a “Slander†and “An Attack�!? :confused: Is this how you reason? You see saxib in the Islamic arena, when one speaks about something that pertains to islam, he/she generally, not usually states his views, and since this Deen is not based on opinions he/she backs up his/her views with Kitab and Sunna, if they are not accessable then the speech of those who inherit the prophet’s knowledge(i.e scholars)!Precisely what i did!

 

at any rate you confessed, the shaykh’s words cant be considered “slanderâ€! Thus I am free from what you accuse me off, my input consisting of two lines sentence was a mere replica of the shaykh's statement!!!!

In English, when someone starts by saying "correct me if I'm wrong...",

it usually means that they are going to make an assumption

(or a statement that you might not agree with). It doesn't mean that what the person said is "based on mere conjecture, devoid of knowledgehas already made up their mind",

Bravo monsieur! C’exactement ce que j'avais essayé de transporter à vous!Allahu musta'an

 

You see, in the grammatical construction of the English language,†conjectureâ€, takes two forms, it could be a “ Verb†or a “ Nounâ€. When it takes the position of a verb, it means “to believe especially on uncertain or tentative groundsâ€

However when it’s used in the Noun format, it means “a hypothesis that has been formed by assuming†therefore Assumption and conjecture are synonyms.

In one of your post you first assumed and asked to be “corrected†upon your assumptions, and then few lines down you wrote with conviction!you either know i read them or you dont, kapish?

 

also, it's not that I can not answer your question, I just find it ludicrous, I mean the amount of books I read does not change the facts! If I read 1000 of his books or zero means Jack! because I, my brother do not have sufficient knowledge to determine what is Bid’ah and what is sunnah, what is Haaq and what is Baatil, so I rely on the kaalam of the Ulama, those steeped in Islamic theology, those competent enough to discern between Haaq and Baatil !!!!

 

I noticed you substituted the word “Scholar†for “Intellectualâ€! care to tell us what makes him intellectual? What is the criteria in islam for one to be intellectual?

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

ehehehehehe, that is funny, indeed. So you grew up in Arabia! Very interesting. Fiiri saaxiib, why do somalis who were raised in Arab countries have always the tendency to intermingle suddenly with the whites and come up this western-wanna-be attitude? Walaahi been makuu sheegaayo, I see the worst somalis are those who grew up in Arabia because they whole-heartedly assimilate to the western cultures! Am talking about a large disproportional number of born in arab or influenced somalis.

 

I read this book, the autobiography of Edward Said, a palestinian thinker, written by a western educated somali scholar of Arabian background. The first thing you can detect of his writtings is the love affair he has with the western culture. I wonder why this excessive inclination towards western culture exists with somali arabs and not others. Does this inferiority reflects the treatments of real arab experiences?

 

tell me saaxiib, walaahi am very amazed how simple our people of arabian backgrounds are. Somalians are known for one thing: superior resistance of other cultures. I don't hate Arabs, and have no any problem with Arabs, i.e. the muslim arabs, but I don't like following their culture. We have Islam in common, and also certain cultural similarities. But I think its part of the compelled assimilations that many of your fellow arab-influenced folks had inherited which follows in the same trend when they arrive in western territories.

 

Saaxiib, you finally disclosed yourself, and that draws me some laughter, lol. By the way, I don't want to perpetuate this criticism-like observations, but since you are like my brother, please revive your Somalinimo and be couragious enough to develop the typical superior self-confidence that were attributed to us, as sociaty.

 

Ok, Mr. NGONGE, Professor of Everything. Its all about to remind your fading esteem and long-forgotten somali culture.

 

Nabadeey

Still waffling?

 

You, sir, are a fraud; a class “A†fraud. You espouse and adopt beliefs and ideas that you know NOTHING about. Your minuscule knowledge of your faith is most dangerous. It’s the type that leads people astray. You mistakenly believe that by declaring any lenient looking statements as unislmaic and deviant you’re doing your faith a service, oh how little you know! You sir, are an impostor, a charlatan, a fake.

 

You have the ability to use a computer, the ability to find the letters around the keyboard, the ability to construct comprehensible sentences but you don’t seem to have the ability to read and understand. You don’t have the ability to THINK. You carry a “do†and “don’t†list that you tick off as you read any piece written by anyone, the minute you see a word from your “don’t†list, you shut you mind (if mind it could be called) and stick your hands in your ears. You respond with irrelevant pieces about this western infamy!

 

Your counterfeit knowledge shines through all your posts, saaxib. When pinned down, you evade the questions with child-like assumptions and postulations! Are your arguments so weak that you can’t back them up with proofs and corroborations? Is your position so fragile that you can’t stick with one line of reasoning and carry it through?

 

The Golden rules of this site ORDER us to criticise ideas not people. In your case, the idea and the person are the same, pathetic. I’m conducting a character assassination exercise here. I’m performing an exorcism (yes, it’s a Christian phrase, wail away saaxib). We need to banish this horrid ghost that seems to have possessed you. We need to bring the real YOU out, saaxib. This depressing excuse of an intellect has to be extinguished. Come back to us, saaxib. Fight this virus away!

 

Does the above sound bad? Did it hit a nerve or is it an unnecessary and pointless rant? Am I making far too many assumptions about you? Is this leading anywhere?

 

On this occasion, and this once only, I’m going to do the work for you. Yes, I think it does sound bad. Yes, I’m certain that I’ve hit a nerve and no I don’t think it’s an unnecessary rant. I also don’t think I’m making any assumptions at all; if anything it’s more of an educated guess! Now, let us talk about where this is leading!

 

I’ve noticed (in your replies to me and others) that you have a way with random statements. You spew an infinite number of such statements and never back them up with any reason or sound argument. You apply this method to every debate you take part in and never make your position, beliefs and principles clear. You criticise the words of others but you NEVER stand still and uphold your own words. You question the FAITH of others but never let your own faith shine through. This is a sluggish way to conduct any sort of debate. This is unacceptable from someone with your (at least to my eyes) intelligence. This has to be corrected (with or without your consent). For if you ever choose to engage in serious debates, you always have to remember that your fellow Nomads are not going to let you in if they so much as sniff a tiny bit of weakness or nonsense. These discussions are not the usual drivel you see in other parts about the best-looking Somali or the casual affairs of the heart. These are very meaningful debates that require, expect and demand of the contributors some seriousness, honesty and COMPREHENSION. Arbitrary, passing and fleeting comments are not taken lightly (I speak for myself here). If you (or anyone else) are not capable of engaging in these debates and backing your arguments, you’re better off taking a back seat and viewing the discussions as they unfold. Do not come in if you’re not up to the task. Do not question, ridicule or mock if you’re not prepared to PROVE why you’re doing so. Do not flog the “ waxa la yedhi†ritual on here, tell us who, why and when it was said, done or suggested.

 

I could have easily ignored your comments and carried on talking about integration and assimilation. I could have quoted every word you wrote and dissected them one by one. I could have chased you around these parts for weeks to come and kept you on the defensive throughout or simply drove you out of this site. I say I could have and I still would! However, like I said earlier, I see signs of intelligence in your words, saaxib. I KNOW you can do better than this. I beg, plead and implore you to cast off this blasé attitude of yours and take a moment to THINK before penning any future replies to any debates on this section.

[Viking]

Salafi,

Ya Allah, hii ni kama kupigia mbuzi guitar! You still don't get the point do you? At some point in my life, I used to be like you, criticising Islamic scholars, thinkers, intellectuals, Muftis etc., call them what you want here. I used to criticise people like Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab, ibn Baaz, Al-Albanee et al. and all "my words" were from other very distinguished scholars. I found solace in the fact that I wasn't actually the one criticising them (that scholars with immense credentials had done the job for us), the same defense you are using here on these boards.

 

But I'd like to believe that I am wiser now for I abtsain from indulging in such discussions because they aren't in my (or anyone's) interest. That it only causes division, hatred and unecessary friction between Muslims. If you want to keep on doing what you are doing, that's upto you mate.

 

 

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

Haye vicking,

 

Where abu Hanifa is saying that, no killing, just imprisonment? I guess you can't prove what Prof. NGONGE has failed to prove. I will listen whatever you present, but be ready for any rejections if that will not comform the purest sense of Islam.

Alle Ubaahne,

In Islam, women (unlike men) are not put to death for blasmpemy but put in life imprisonment. This is not Abu Hanifa's view but a general consensus among all schools of thought, even the Ja'fari.

 

I used Abu Hanifa's example which says that non-Muslims cannot be sentenced to death for blasphemy (and cannot be apostates since they aren't Muslims). This has been my understanding and anyone who finds out otherwise is welcome to share their findings.

[DraGon]

Viking wacha nikuambiye Salaf has admitted to in another thread to belong to an organization called Troid in Toronto. This organization was banished from all masjids including Troid which is one of the most liberal and inclusive masjid in Toronto attended by most of sijuis.

Troid was banished from all the masjids for exactly what Salaf is preaching here, I attended a conference organized in Salahuudiin masjid and the next day they were kicked out. For what reason you might ask??? Insulting and talking bad about some scholars.

[OG_Girl]

لقد أسمعت لو ناديت حيـا

ولكن لا حياة لمن تنادي

ولو نارا Ù†Ùخت بها أضاءت

ولكن أنت تنÙØ® ÙÙŠ رماد

LooooooooooooooooooooooooL

 

Edit:

 

I swear to God this is funny but Mutakallem don't you know the brother doesn't understand it? How about you open school for just that "SAY I DONT KNOW"...n that should be the beginning of the learning

 

 

Salam