Freedom and Democracy, do you buy that?

[Curly]

Does any one here really and whole-heartedly believe in freedom and democracy? :confused:

 

Because I don’t see how even in an ideal world those two concepts would work.

Firstly in the dictionary freedom and democracy is defined as follows:

 

Freedom is a condition of being free or unrestricted, personal or civic liberty. The state of being free to act and also the condition of being exempt from or not subject to a defect or burden.

 

Democracy is defined, as a system of government by the whole population usually through elected representatives or a state so governed. It’s also any organisation governed on democratic principles or an egalitarian, classless and tolerant form of society.

 

Is it me or are these either a contradiction or a concept that is beyond the comprehension and scope of this imperfect mortal world we live in?

 

Because obviously freedom will never work, as we are inundated with restrictions, rules and laws wherever in the world we are! And obviously one person’s freedom will forever conflict with another person’s freedom. So why blind I ourselves with this falsity that freedom is attainable in this world and that it is the very thing that distinguishes the developed countries (e.g. America) from those countries that oppress their people? When in actual fact it’s places like America that preaches freedom and claims to live by it, that lack the very characteristics of freedom at the most?

 

And as for democracy well I think democracy is a mockery of our intellect! For the love of god it’s a concept that is based on another “nonexistent†concept (freedom). And if we were to use the modern day examples of democratic countries then I think people would agree with me when I say that election of a representative elected by the whole population is not the case for America when the majority of the population voted against him. And I believe that by all means this was completely due to class and position, which goes completely against thee initial definition of what democracy should be.

[OG_Girl]

Sue , could post as always and let me now add my two cents. Let me say from out set I don’t whole heartily believe in freedom and democracy as you defined them here. This is the ideal definition of these concepts and as you are aware, we are imperfect beings who live in an imperfect world!

 

â€Is it me or are these either a contradiction or a concept that is beyond the comprehension and scope of this imperfect mortal world we live in?â€

 

There is no contraction in these concepts is just that you are trying to implement their ideal case scenario and that is not possible. Having said that it doesn’t mean they are beyond comprehension either cause we just have to take into account for our less than ideal situation!

 

Freedoms of different people will always conflict for the simple reason we humans are selfish by nature! Therefore, the trick is to avoid being selfish as much as you can, compromising, and tolerating the views others achieves this. Comprising if you think about it is in one’s best interest since the winner takes it all mentality wont work in this day and age. Even a superpower like USA has to realise that eventually. I would therefore say is in everyone’s best interest to aim for these concepts cause the alternative is dictatorship and oppression for all. A general rule one should always follow (in order to make life easy for themselves) is almost anything is attainable to first order approximation!

 

“And as for democracy well I think democracy is a mockery of our intellect! “.

 

What is the alternative? Cause I don’t see you advancing another system here and remember anyone can criticise anything but not everyone has a solution!

 

“And if we were to use the modern day examples of democratic countries then I think people would agree with me when I say that election of a representative elected by the whole population is not the case for America when the majority of the population voted against him.â€

 

I am sorry to say, your example is weak here as the American elections are based on electoral college based on population and if I understand this correctly, is to ensure that each state is well represented however big or small it is in the union. Otherwise, states like New York, California will dominate the union! So, give us another example.

 

Allow me to change the topic a bit and tell you even if we implement Islamic system we will never have the best of that system too. This is because in the early days of the Khalifah people disagreed on how to implement it. The disagreement and divisions arose mainly as a result of political interests and this in turn led to theological difference which are still with us today. Some of the Sahabah kept silent for the sake of Islam in order to avoid Fitna, even then, people still disagreed, and the Khaliifah were all killed except for the first one .The other problem is Islam can be interpreted differently by different people based on their understanding of the religion. So naturally, a problem of dictatorship could arise here since people will try to force each other on their different interpretations and any disagreements could lead to wars. This is because everyone would believe they are on their right path and only their posses the truth.

 

So in conclusion, I would say no system is perfect for imperfect being like us who live in an imperfect world! Therefore democracy and freedom are fine concepts and we should all strive for them even if we cant implement them to their full glory but at least aim for them.

 

I am Tired... I am off see you tomorrow

 

Salam

[Alle-ubaahne]

OG Girl,

 

I think you bombarded your sister with huge disagreements. Plus you have no recommendations as to how you see is the better discourse for governance and political systems. You said nothing is perfect. That is what they say all the time.

 

I think Islam is perfect in governance. And one reason you can agree is that if Allah is perfect, then His words are perfect. And that gives us a perfect way to conduct ourselves. Right?

 

I am tired too, because of what they stand for!

[silent-sistah]

sue, salaam sis....

 

hmm, let me say, i totally understand wher eu are coming from, and agree with every word u wrote down..

 

O_G, me and u im starting to think will always sit on different fenses when it comes to politics,

 

 

p.s this statement is not weak, to my knowledge (correct me if im wrong) when the elections where held, bushes apponent was winning by a long shot.....however the disciding vote came down to california, which is a biased state (because of their governer) it is larger than the rest, and therefore out numbered them..( any man who wants to run for president should just place his best man in cali)

“And if we were to use the modern day examples of democratic countries then I think people would agree with me when I say that election of a representative elected by the whole population is not the case for America when the majority of the population voted against him.â€

[W.D.]

Freedom and Democracy, no I'm not that dumb to buy that! It has to be limited according to Islam.

 

Freedom, in the west you have as much freedom as long as you don't harm or offend others. In islam it's the same but add not to offend Allah with it.

 

Democracy, to me the western style it's just a dicatorship of the majority over the minority. Islam was the only to introduce, protection of minority rights and respect and consideration for their opinions.

[OG_Girl]

Alle,Bro,I was just putting my opinion, nothing against my sister Sue. By the way she is my best friend here .

 

I don't have magic ball brother, The problem we against having defferent oipion and that it self is what lead us to wars. If we simply agree to disagree and work what we agree together and keep what we disagree and tolerate that would be best solution since Allah created us with differences.

 

silent, I know we are totally different, yet we tolerate each other and listen to each other, that is all good with me as long you don't say: " OG, you are totally wrong , follow me , you are lost soul" . Every thing else we can disagree as much as we want.

 

I am fresh now

 

Salam

[silent-sistah]

^----- loooooooooooooool.

 

0_G SIS, my most observent teachers have always said that i make a good leader,,,and a lowsy dictator--i couldnt and wouldnt even dream of forcing my views onto others--- i mean if my views are wrong and others follow me--- wont i get dembi for every dembi they commmit following me???

 

i like the fact that we disagree on certain topics...it tests and strenghtens our frienship.

[Curly]

Alle-ubaahne

 

Thank you walaal for defending me but Og-girl and I have a good relationship, were we both can express one another’s views without feeling as those we are offending one another. However I completely agree! Islam is by far the perfect governance and Islam’s laws were produced by a superior and pure being and therefore I would much rather live by the laws of Allah than the hypocritical and self-interested laws designed and put in place by simple and feeble mortals who become corrupt with power.

 

Og girl

Walaal, lol…you’ve truly out done yourself today and I’m glad you’ve contributed your views on this, after all that was the whole aim and to be honest you made a well thought out and structured argument. But as you and I have both stated this world is imperfect and is run by selfish and corrupted individuals. However I already happily live without freedom and I’ve never had any faith in democracy. This topic wasn’t posted to start an up rise or any sort of revolution in order to transgress to a better life because as you can see I never suggested an alternative because to do that would be easier said than done.

 

Nonetheless I’d hate to be living in this system and blinding myself from the facts just so that I can live by the old saying that “ignorance is bliss†because if you were stuck in the matrix which pill would you choose? lol…excuse the pun but still the question stands!

 

Getting back to your argument…

 

You say that I’m “trying to implement these concepts in an ideal case scenario†which is not possible well luv it’s not me whose implementing these concepts and force feeding it across the ‘far from ideal’ world as the best and only way to live, it’s “The West†I’m merely pointing out that these concept’s inability to firstly work along side each other and secondly that they are attainable at all.

 

“I would therefore say is in everyone’s best interest to aim for these concepts cause the alternative is dictatorship and oppression for allâ€

 

You also voiced that even in Islamic state problems arise that as you put it

“The disagreement and division arose mainly as a result of political interests and this in turn led to theological differences which are still with us todayâ€

 

I don’t think this is true, and a best alternative would be an Islamic state and I do not regard Islam as an oppressive dictatorship. Sure people become corrupt with power eventually but when the basis is an Islamic one which was started with pure intentions and which I believe is far better than following laws based on a kafir religion with people who have no sense of what being selfless and equal is…but unless you’re a secularist whose pro-France and it’s approach to religion, you haven’t got a better choice.

 

 

“What is the alternative? Cause I don’t see you advancing another system here and remember anyone can criticise anything but not everyone has a solution!â€

 

You right walaal I didn’t originally make a suggestion as to an alternative system, properly because I’m no che guevara and I don’t think starting a revolution is on my to-do-list well not now anyways…lol but as I’ve said Islam is the best alternative when it comes to the crunch on the contrary as I was told only last week there is in fact a haddith which has been approved by scholars to be correct which denounces the up rise of Muslims against government states as long as your Islamic obligations, for example the right to worship Allah and prayer are not conflicted or affected.

 

 

Anyhow, going back to your statement that bush was elected fairly.

“I’m sorry to say your example is weak here as the American elections are based on Electoral College based on population and if I understand correctly, is ensure that each state is well represented however big or small it is in union. Otherwise, states like New York, California will dominate the union! So, give us another example.â€

 

Walaal, No it’s already been proven that Bush was elected unfairly as silent sistah has mentioned.

 

“When elections where held, bush opponent was winning by a long shot…however the deciding vote came down to California, which is a biased state (because of their governor) it was larger than the rest, and therefore out numbered themâ€

 

I’m guessing silent sistah watched the Fahrenheit 11 documentary, which was all based on fact might I add. Because the people’s choice was Al-Gore but Bush used his social position as bush junior to get the title of president, which of course is hardly democratic!

 

I’m sorry that this argument was a little muddled and poorly constructed but I’m trying to follow chronological order; however much of the statements are related to previously stated statements.

 

So to conclude on that walaal I would have to say that yes an Islamic system is perfect, but we as humans are not.

 

 

Silent Sistah

 

Thank you luv for you contribution and I appreciated it! I’m glad we see eye to eye.

 

Waryaa dude

 

You said that “freedom, in the west you have as much freedom as long as you don’t harm or offend others, in Islam it’s the same but add not to offend Allah with it.â€

Walaal I don’t believe in freedom because it doesn’t work and I don’t think I have freedom in Islam too because freedom is defined in such a way that it shouldn’t come with conditions and for that very reason this concept then becomes unattainable.

But I would much rather follow Islam’s laws and regulations instead of laws that have been chopped and changed to suit higher up officials or benefit other individuals much like the pigs did in George Orwell’s satire ‘Animal farm’.

[OG_Girl]

Sue is good to read your reply and as always sis, you have good points. Now let us get back to the basics of the discussion at hand. I will try to address your points as they appeared in your post.

 

When I said, implementing I didn’t mean in the literal sense of the word (that you have the power to implement these ideas into practical laws); but rather what I meant was, you are seeing the applications of these concepts in the ideal sense. On the question of the West implementing it and forcing feeding them across the far from ideal world, well see that is another topic and we can discuss it another time and place.

 

I have touched on Islam to show you as an example, even when we apply this system, which we believe to be perfect, and which we hold dearly, we wont get its full potential at all. This is not the fault of Islam but ours and this comes about due to our nature of being greedy. In addition, nowhere did I state Islam was oppressive and dictatorship but rather said we humans could make it so if we chose it. I am not a secularist since I love my religion and I would love to see it applied properly in our daily lives in a fair and transparent way. Having said that, I wont be surprised if it ends being used and abused by those who rule us. It happened before and it could happen again unless we change our ways and fear Allah.

 

Therefore, when I asked you what is the alternative, I didn’t mean Islam was not perfect or it was not the solution to our problems; I meant in terms of the Western system what do you want to see replaced with as the West would never implement Islam. So my question is, you live in the West and since you don’t believe in democracy, what do you want them to replace it with since they wont do with Islam? Don’t get me wrong here I am not saying start a revolution or fight for a change in the system but rather since we are exchanging ideas and debating, so I am naturally wondering what would you have loved the west to implement in order for that new system to be fair, and by human standard to be attainable?

 

The question of Bush being elected fairly or unfairly is controversial issue, which arose whether he won the state of Florida or not and thus, it was never settled or agreed upon. One thing has been agreed Al Gore has got the most popular vote but the fact remains the American presidential election is based on Electoral College as opposed to popular vote. The Electoral College system works on the fact that each state is awarded points based on the population of that state and if a candidate wins a state, he/she gets the full point of that state. Therefore in the end what is counted is, the total points each candidate has across the whole of USA and the one with most points wins the election and not the one most people voted for through out the USA. We can discuss this system on another thread, its advantages and disadvantages.

 

In conclusion, I too would say again, what I said before Islamic system is perfect, and is we humans who are not.Thus we have to think how best to implement Islam and not just shout Islam without understanding! If one were to strech the anolgy a bit further one could sasy Marixim is perfect and some people believe that. (Note: no direct comparison is intended here between Islam which is a system given by God and human made comunsim). So even that system when it was implemented it failed due to our greedy. The reason why capitilist works maybe is because is a system that tries to satisfy the greedy of human being and tell us everyone you too can make big!.

 

Salam

[Curly]

Communism, Marxism and Socialism are all feasible alternatives in an ideal world but again they are hated by the west as much as the setting up of an Islamic state and of course they’re all subject to foul play when implemented by the wrong people and for all the wrong reasons. Again this means that even democracy in an ideal world would work, however I pointed out democracy because people blind themselves to the reality of what is being passed off as democracy when in act fact it’s all cunningly built on lies and conspiracies all in the aim of achieving personal and political gain in one way or another.

 

I seriously can't think of another alternative other than Islam.

[Medley of extemporanea]

Hi Sue, cool topic.

 

the terms 'freedom' and 'democracy' have a different meaning when used in the context of western political thought; and in that context they are mostly instruments of propaganda with little or no relationship to the dictionary definition of the terms.

 

Another term I’ve been hearing often recently is “civilized worldâ€. Here are examples of “civilized world†in use:

 

"After more than a decade of diplomacy, we gave Saddam Hussein another chance, a final chance, to meet his responsibilities to the civilized world --- President Bush

 

"[iran is not] part of the civilized world." --Mr. Rumsfeld

 

So we have the “democratic worldâ€, the “free worldâ€, and now we have the “civilized worldâ€.

 

If you were to look at how these terms are used in western politics, you would think that to be part of the "free and civilized world" you have to be white.

[Qac Qaac]

nice topic, and u should add capitalism some where... and now let's see if capitalism, freedom, and democracy contradict... i think they do... whatta corrupt system, men made system what u expect.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Dear Sullen Sue, and OG Girl,

 

I am very impressed how well you two are intermingled, and yet disagreeing while having no intense negative feelings in return of the disagreement of the other. Interesting! I think this is the first time am seeing Somali girls discussing about Politics and at the same time engaging deeper analytical views for delving much about their experiences and so forth. Masha-Allah. That is realy a good thing, I believe.

 

Abaayooyin, Let me share with you this story I once had a group of Eedooyin-like women. One day my aunt asked me to drive her to another state so as to purchase something from there. So, I did. When I come to pick her at her house, I noticed that she was not alone but three of her friends were with her. I drove them towards where we intended to go, and in the course of our trip, we had nothing to talk about. Everyone was almost silent.

 

So I decided to at least to become a catalyst for a general topic so as to discuss while en route to the state we're going to. I picked the current warlord's conference in Kenya as the topic for me entertain these Eedooyin. To my suprise, the four Eedooyin become more than politicians. They deeply discussed about everything about the history of each and every warlord, somali history, the problems we as somalis have here in the west, and finally the absulate solution for our problems.

 

Walaahi, that was the time I raised my hand in total respect for the degree of intellectualism they displayed, because previously I used to think off them as innocent people who are deaf about the reality and the political spheres of the country and elsewhere. Who said in order for one to become a politician, one should go to school and study the art of human polity? If you think about those Eedooyin, none of them went to school or read in any newspaper to comprehend the world, and yet they are engaging an advanced level of political idealogies!

 

Cajiib, May be Sullen Sue and OG Girl are another Eedooyin-to-be girls who are on the verge to grasp everything about politics, lol. Am joking for this one, OK.

[NGONGE]

Sue,

 

Freedom and Democracy are not modern concepts. You’re using the dictionary’s definitions of both words and trying to apply them to the modern Western world. Democracy is derived from the Greek for “Power of the peopleâ€. The idea is for people to reach a consensus on every decision they make. Like you said, they can choose representatives to make those decisions for them. The example you used and argued about shows the shortcomings of democracy. However, that’s just one instance where democracy fails. It does not mean however that in the next American election the same mistakes will be repeated. Will democracy be declared to be working fine then? Democracy and Freedom are ideals that people strive to get as near as possible to. They’re not realities and they’re never likely to become ones.

 

Like you said, it’s impossible to have total freedom. To have total freedom you will have to be free from all external influences. Not just in the physical sense either. Religion for example could be regarded as an external influence. How could you be totally free if you’re restricting yourself by your beliefs? This is probably why we’re “ The Slaves†of Allah.

 

The modern (or maybe it has always been thus) understanding of Freedom could be better interpreted by your ability to talk in a crowd where your voice is loud and clear but not loud enough to drown the voices of others. Sounds crazy of course and there will always be people who scream louder than everyone else, but the aim is for everyone to “feel†that they’re being heard.

 

As things stand, current modern democracies and freedoms are the nearest thing we have to a perfect world. Of course there are abuses, corruption and lies. However, every once in a while, these democracies give the people the chance to catch out and get rid of the corrupt rulers. They also give them the chance to have a say on the major issues (such as the current referendum being carried out in most European countries to decide on the European constitution). If people don’t take part in such processes it could hardly be blamed on the concept of democracy, could it?

 

Somebody mentioned Socialism, Communism and Marxism (All are more or less the same ideologies by the way). The major fault of such ideologies is that they focus heavily on the economic side of things. They aim to make everyone EQUAL! Everyone being equal in the way they’re treated sounds like a good and noble idea, however, everyone being equal in wealth and capacity is the pinnacle of unfairness in my humble opinion. In these ideologies everyone owns the means of production. There is no private ownership or wealth. It’s all for one and one for all! The style of government is dictatorial. The theories assume that fairness and good intentions are what would make this system work. It places too much trust on the faith and honesty of these dictators. Big open goal if I’ve ever seen one.

 

I hear you say that the alternative is an Islamic system of government, what exactly is an Islamic system of government and how would it look like in practise in this modern world?

 

 

I appreciate that my definitions of these political terms above are on the short side but I’m hoping that you’ve already got the background information and are able to follow what I’m trying to say here.

[Curly]

Alle –baahne

 

“Cajiib, May be Sullen Sue and OG Girl are another Eedooyin-to-be girls who are on the verge to grasp everything about politics, lol. Am joking for this one, OK.â€

 

I know you didn’t mean anything by that walaal there’s no need to carry on like we would ambush you if you did not state you were joking.

And I’ll also have you know I’ve been an eedo for quiet some time.

 

However your remark was in danger of ruining our credibility especially as you said when we’re on the verge of having an intellectually valid and respectable debate about concepts for some strange you believe to be beyond us. (I sense a little sexism…where’s DA when she’s needed? lol)

 

 

Ngonge

 

You just love to make everything 10 times harder for me don’t you?! lol

No but you’ve stated a lot of the things that I was trying to convey across in my argument and for that reason I applaud you. But for some strange reason you’ve chosen to excuse their behaviour with lines like.

 

“Freedom and democracy are not modern conceptsâ€

 

Of course they are modern concepts, they’re the concepts that are being force fed to the rest of the world by this self declared “democratic superpower†and it’s agreeing allies. Of course during time ‘the west’ has adapted and blinded us to what freedom really is and stands for. We’re in a day and age where our privacy is being breeched in order to ensure our freedom…I don’t quiet see how that works! Is that not another contradiction?

 

*Quick UK example* did you know that all people with T-mobile contracts have agreed to have all their calls monitored? Read the small print.

 

Getting back to what I was saying, Ngonge if you say democracy and freedom are all old concepts, then what are the new ones and should we (because they say so) dismiss this ridicule of our intellects as satisfactory? If so Ngonge you should change your name to Muriel.

 

You say “they’re not realities and they’re never likely to become onesâ€

 

Yes but when people strive to push these falsities down our throats as the correct way to live and as realities… what are we to do? When countries are being invaded and abused for “the west’s†personal interests. Should be then blind sight ourselves with this idea that there are no better alternatives until we’re next on the hit list?

 

“However once in a while, these democracies give the people that chance to catch out and get rid of the corrupt rulersâ€

 

It’s funny because even that in itself is a process that is plagued with corruption and underlining ulterior motives.

 

 

Quote the modern or

 

You say it “Sound crazy well luv of course it’s crazy, we’ve been blinding ourselves for long that we’ve become accustom to these changes and accepted them as the only way we can live and survive.

 

Ngonge you also seem to be rather anti equality, you agree that all these similar concepts being with good and noble ideas however I agree corruption and self interest worms its way into the fruits of our labour, however sweet it maybe.

And of course this worm in represents itself as dictatorship, however I believe even democracy is vulnerable to dictatorship. Instead these democratic states choose to throw us off with using the false concept of freedom.

 

Everyone may not be equal in some people’s eyes because of material and social standing but in the eyes of Allah we’re all Slaves and walaal I’d rather be a slave of Allah than the blind slave of these deceptive western concepts.

 

**This conversation is heading nowhere and fast**