Are Mosques really sister-friendly?

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

 

Do we inform, educate and challenge those behind this injustice? Do we force our way into a mosque and let these guys know that we’re here to stay?

 

How does America deal with the racial disparities in the U.S.? One of the ways is Affirmitive action because the problem is so deep-rooted, that even if you outlaw discrimination, it will still exist systematically. The problem of not letting women in the mosques is a deep-rooted issue as well. On the surface, mosques give excuses as you have, but they are systematically leaving the women out to the point where even women believe that they don't belong there. Yes, we (women) should demand the right to be present at the mosques. It's tough trying to do that when we are so outnumbered and the Imams just happen to be men.

 

 

PS: well you can't see it from a woman's P.O.V. because you aren't trying!

[NGONGE]

DA,

You should give it a try. Lets philosophise about it. Come on dismantle that mosque with your thoughts. Pile the bricks on one side and surround them with wood. Light a fire. Drop your bra in it. Run around muttering exotic words. Take a break, put the fire out. Try to put the mosque back together but this time make sure the women’s side is bigger.

 

 

That manarat looks lopsided to me, dear :rolleyes:

[Reality Check]

^ Right :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

 

Look, I know you're joking and all, but I don't find the whole bra-burning thing that funny!

 

Why do men insist on calling women feminist when they talk about ANY issue concering them? That my dear, is my example of systematic sexism. :rolleyes:

[NGONGE]

I only do it because I enjoy your reactions. Cringe, squirm, cry baby cry.

 

I was only teasing and the bra comment was part of the “philosophisingâ€, it wasn’t meant as an attack on you or your views on this occasion. :mad:

 

 

On a serious note, and I already have a feeling that I’m going to regret this, but I’ll still ask:

 

It's tough trying to do that when we are so outnumbered and the Imams just happen to be men.

What did you mean by “just happen� I’m hoping it’s just an unfortunate choice of words. Please tell me it is!

[Reality Check]

The Imams are men.

 

That is what is on the screen, am I right?

 

That happens to be reality, am I right?

[NGONGE]

It’s ok, you can stop twisting and turning now. You are indeed right. They are men and that is what you said. It’s my paranoia making me see things when there is nothing to see. I started thinking of semantics and whether “just happens to be†and “happens to be†would imply the same thing. Yup, it’s just my paranoia.

 

Yours truly,

A *****ing pedant

[Gediid]

I would always ask my high school Religion Education teacher, an anglican priest how he could prove the existence of God from a Christain point of view.I asked him this particular question not because I wanted to know what he thought or what the Bible said about the existence of God but it was rather a silly ploy that I knew would make my day easier and the most boring class in high school a lil more interesting.Now I knew that teacher was going out of his way to prove to me that God in his opinion did exist and his holy scriptures all proved that but to a 15 year old kid all I remember was while he talked my lil head would always have more question for him than he had the answers for.Later in life I recognised that maybe I went a little overboard and even though I had nothing in common with that Anglican priest yet there was so much that I could have learned from him instead of just sitting there and throwing a million questions per second.Religion is basically a question of faith ,you either believe or you dont.There are strict do's and don'ts in every faith whether its Islam or Hinduism and there are absolutely no maybe's.Thats why its called religion.

Now getting back to this topic,if the girls feel that mosques are not sister friendly,lemme just say they aren't supposed to be sister friendly.Islam clearly states that women get more Ajar praying at home than at the mosque.With that in mind and the limited resources that Muslims especially those in the west have at their disposal I don't see any reason why a Mosque should have the same space for a woman.A smaller space will always be there to accomadate those women who wish to come to mosques and pray there but an equal size space I don't think so.I know someone stated that times have changed well tough luck Islam is not a dynamic religion.It came down in 632 AD and a million centuries later the principles of Islam will stay the same.That holy book that Mohammed(ASW) brought down is the first and last.Its not open to scrutiny nor change.You either take it in its entirety or leave it as it is.There's no room for feminism ,maleism or what ever movements there are, to Allah you are all his creatures, from him you came and to him you shall return.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Gediid:

Islam clearly states that women get more Ajar praying at home than at the mosque.

Actually there is no directive in the Koran that women get less ajar. That is our first source of ISLAM.

 

A smaller space will always be there to accomadate those women who wish to come to mosques and pray there but an equal size space I don't think so.

Why not?

 

I know someone stated that times have changed well tough luck Islam is not a dynamic religion.

Actaully it is.

 

It came down in 632 AD and a million centuries later the principles of Islam will stay the same.

The Koran came down in 632 AD and there is still NO verse in the Koran about women getting less ajar by praying at the mosque.

 

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: @ Feminist issue. I think the male nomads make this a feminist issue in order to make this issue seem less credible. Can you find another scapegoat please, cuz this one is played OUT!

[Baashi]

DA always wins not because she has a point, not because she has knowledge in the subject under discussion, not because she uses reason, not because she has higher moral ground than other opposing (views) nomads...no she wins because she stubbornly exerts one-dimensional line arguments that goes around the heart of the issue in circles.

 

This post is case in point! The issue of whether women get more ajar in praying their homes or not could have been settled if the words of the prophet is good enough for DA. From what I gather, she demands a Qur’anic verse that specifically addresses this issue from this particular angle. What prophet Mohamed PBUH preachs is immaterial as far as DA is concerned.

 

The bottom line is there is no (as far as I know) verse in Qur’an about this issue. In that regard she’s won. Clap clap! There is, however, a verse in the Qur’an that says whatever prophet brings to you take (embrace) it and whatever he forbids avoid (it is haraam) it. This verse has to end, you would think, DA’s concern of Hadiths being not the primary sources right? wrong!

[checkmate]

^^^^^^^my point precisely baashi....and i think u just gav her a taste of her own medicine.

 

Our prophet (pbuh) said you would get more AJAR if you marry a divorced women.(no where will it say u'll get less AJAR if u marry a vergin/not married women...except thru ur logic diagnosis ONLY...

 

I really admire ur way of thinking at time....but i sometimes think u lack the principality of all....

 

 

asxantu

[Gediid]

DA

We can pull and push all day long but I have a feeling this will not take us anywhere but I will try anyways.

 

First and foremost its always good to start off with a disclaimer......Being human I know I'm bound to make mistakes but may Allah forgive me.Anyone with the exact daliil can come forward and correct me.Second if anyone knows better please enlighten us.

 

DA walaalo there's no female/male issue in Islam that needs our attention.Islam clearly sets a different path for each.For a woman I think its a blessing that they have been fortunate to escape from the burden of having to pray five times at the mosque.I guess most men would celebrate if this applied to them but they are not that fortunate.You see DA I call this a burden because its extremely difficult to do such a deed in this time and age and knowing that every rakat you pray is half of what you would get if that was in a mosque is hard on the human conscience.

Why one would advocate for a such burden I fail to understand.As for the issue of whether Islam states women get more ajar praying at home than at the mosques,I personally think we all know the logic behind that, a woman more than a man will know even better as to why.

 

For Islam to be even considered a dynamic religion, I think we have to have a revised or updated editions of the holy Quran that keeps up with the ever changing world or a new prophet.That will never happen since Allah has already sent his last prophet and his word in the quran is his last to us humans.What ever time it was set for is immaterial here but the underlying laws in there are eternal.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Baashi:

DA always wins not because she has a point, not because she has knowledge in the subject under discussion, not because she uses reason, not because she has higher moral ground than other opposing (views) nomads...no she wins because she stubbornly exerts one-dimensional line arguments that goes around the heart of the issue in circles.

Obviously you have nothing but contempt for my views. That is the norm here anyway. My one liners have points. You can go back 8 pages and see that I have further repeated myself, and I no longer wish to. So of course, DA DOES NOT HAVE A POINT, IS NOT INTELLIGENT, DID NOT HAVE OVER 20 YEARS OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION AND LACKS COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC. Am I missing anything else? Oh but wait, I am also one-dimentional.

 

This post is case in point! The issue of whether women get more ajar in praying their homes or not could have been settled if the words of the prophet is good enough for DA. From what I gather, she demands a Qur’anic verse that specifically addresses this issue from this particular angle. What prophet Mohamed PBUH preachs is immaterial as far as DA is concerned.

 

The bottom line is there is no (as far as I know) verse in Qur’an about this issue. In that regard she’s won. Clap clap! There is, however, a verse in the Qur’an that says whatever prophet brings to you take (embrace) it and whatever he forbids avoid (it is haraam) it. This verse has to end, you would think, DA’s concern of Hadiths being not the primary sources right? wrong!

[/i]

The point is, the Koran is the primary source of our religion. What Allah prohibits, is haram, what ever he allows is halal. The Prophet is in accordance with the Koran. Yes, Sunnah should be followed. But before I discuss something WAAAAAAAY out of my league (b/c nomads believe I have no intelligence in this matter, nor do I have the capacity to do research and read books), I will say that Hadith (as written by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc etc) is not infallible. This is according to scholars, to Bukhari and such removing "fabricated" hadiths from their books, insertions of disclaimers by these scholars, etc etc. So pardon me when I say that the Koran, the unchanged word of God, is the PRIMARY source of our deen and anything else is SECONDARY. I did not discuss Nabi Muhammmad in this discussion, nor did I say that his way was right or wrong. So in saying all of this (quite unnecessarily), I would like certain nomads to stop putting words in my mouth and to start doing their own RESEARCH before they speak of things they are not knowledgeable on.

 

 

Baashi,

 

I do like your style though. It's like the civil way of being uncivil. Very classy (and I do hope you sense the sarcasm).

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Gediid:

For Islam to be even considered a dynamic religion, I think we have to have a revised or updated editions of the holy Quran that keeps up with the ever changing world or a new prophet.That will never happen since Allah has already sent his last prophet and his word in the quran is his last to us humans.What ever time it was set for is immaterial here but the underlying laws in there are eternal.

The Koran is very dynamic, as it is meant for all muslims till the end of time. Even the Koran can be interpreted in so many ways, and that also makes it dynamic.

[Baashi]

Thanks for the compliment DA. I needed one from you and no I didn't sense the sarcasm for I read it literaly as you have written.

 

Now you do understand the value of strong opinions and the need for expressing one's views without you being raising the victim flag and this rubbish of all folks are gainst me. Don't give us that plz!

 

Back to the issue, sis the heart of the issue is whether sisters are better off praying the salat at home or not. Some knowledgeable folks said sisters are supposed to pray at home. The Masjid are open for them but they get more credit from Allah if they perform their salat at home. Why? I don't know! it is Allah's infinite wisdom.

 

But you seem to take an issue for the validity of ahadiths. You seem to suggest that the scholars are fallible. Even though it is irrelevant, still I agree that indeed they are fallible for they are mere human beings. This is why I say u run around in circles.

 

What is it that you object about ahadiths? Is it the methodology and science used to collect them? Or the very substance of ahadiths in itself? Are you saying this particular hadith is weak or you are questioning the scholar who forwarded to us? This is prophets word after all. For you to say you don't consider ahadith as authentic source for Islam is something beyond me.

 

An advice don't you take my posts as personal attack for they are not. Don't you personalize it and if it seems that way to you is the inevitable conclusion that gleaned from the aggregate posts.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Baashi:

An advice don't you take my posts as personal attack for they are not. Don't you personalize it and if it seems that way to you is the inevitable conclusion that gleaned from the aggregate posts.

I personalize when people insult my intelligence. You can look back at the first paragraph of your second to last post. You got personal there. I do get offended when posters do that because I do not go around talking about their level of education and their ability to reason. I stick to the points they are trying to make and argue/agree there. If I made any of my posts personal, please direct me straight to it.

 

 

Back to the topic at hand. Sunnah is infallible. That is what the Prophet said and did in his time alive. What is in the books (Hadiths) are not infallible. One main proof of that is discarding all those other hadiths that the prophet was to have said, which according to Bukhari and his research stated that it was not trustworthy. And if that is not a reason why its infallible, why don't we take a look at the different types of Hadiths (i.e. sahiih, da'if, etc). Now, when I as a woman am to told that I dont get as much ajar as the next, I need a strong proof of that! That means, the strongest proof there is, which is the Koran. Simple as that. Now where did people get the idea that I am against the Nabi and his teachings?

 

If we are going to use the "ajar" hadith as an example, then we need to know what ajar is. That is extra deeds that a muslim receives for doing something that is required exceptionally well, doing a deed that is not required but recommended, etc. That means you are not committing a sin for praying at the mosque at all. So using that argument in this discussion (about women in mosques) is kinda weak, don't you think?