Khayr Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Devil's Advocate: Rahima, I would love to once again get into a theological debate with you, but I feel we will digress from the topic at hand. All you could have said was there are no VERSES. That's it. End of debate. Whether I accept or reject the hadith is not the issue, nor do you know what I truly believe. All I was asking (and I repeat) is, FIND ME AN AYAAT. I do not wish to find out (thru cut and paste, mind you) how, where and what the hadiths are all about, as if I didn't know anything about them. You insult my intelligence when you do that. DA/OPI, Rahima layed it down for you and you couldn't refute her arguments. EXAMPLE: If someone says that its Makruh/Disliked or even Haram to Talk on your cell phone while driving on the Highway b/c its life threatening and you said 'Where is the Ayat?' you question would be considered more of an INSULT rather then a question b/c there would be no ayat referring to 'Cellphones and cars' Get the Point! :rolleyes: Ofcourse not, cause its not criticizing Islam or coming from you. Your WESTERN FEMINIST BIAS towards ISLAM and RELIGION blockkkkkkkkkkkkks your Comprehension of any concepts that goes further than the 15th century. Sura Al-Baqarah(6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.) (7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment). «يَا Ù…ÙÙ‚ÙŽÙ„Ùبَ الْقÙÙ„Ùوب٠ثَبّÙتْ Ù‚ÙÙ„Ùوبَنَا عَلى دÙينÙك» O You Who changes the hearts, make our hearts firm on Your religion.) Ameen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Khayr: DA/OPI, Rahima layed it down for you and you couldn't refute her arguments. EXAMPLE: If someone says that its Makruh/Disliked or even Haram to Talk on your cell phone while driving on the Highway b/c its life threatening and you said 'Where is the Ayat?' you question would be considered more of an INSULT rather then a question b/c there would be no ayat referring to 'Cellphones and cars' Get the Point! :rolleyes: Ofcourse not, cause its not criticizing Islam or coming from you. Your WESTERN FEMINIST BIAS towards ISLAM and RELIGION blockkkkkkkkkkkkks your Comprehension of any concepts that goes further than the 15th century. quote: Sura Al-Baqarah(6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.) (7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment). «يَا Ù…ÙÙ‚ÙŽÙ„Ùبَ الْقÙÙ„Ùوب٠ثَبّÙتْ Ù‚ÙÙ„Ùوبَنَا عَلى دÙينÙك» O You Who changes the hearts, make our hearts firm on Your religion.) Ameen Rahima took the topic to another direction and I simply tried to bring it back. People have a way of not wanting to answer the direct question and instead go on to some obscure other topic and try to make a point there. The fact of the matter is: There is no verse. It wouldn't hurt to say that and it will bring the topic back to the original discussion at hand (which is of course Mosque and its accomodations (or lack thereof) for women). With respects to your "example", if someone told me its a makruh/disliked, I would like them to explain by first giving me reference to the first source, the Koran. Then support it with Hadith, Shariah, opinions of scholars, etc etc. Second, if it is makruh, there probably isnt a verse anyway, and If you do the act then its not really a sin. Does this make me western in thinking? Does this make me critize Islam? Does this make me a "western feminist biased against all things Islam"? I guess according to you, I am. That is, if your opinions even mattered because so far you havent even discussed the REAL issue here: Are mosques really sister-friendly? :cool: ETA: Any credibility you had with me has just went to hell (no pun intended). Resorting to name calling does not make you more intelligent, but the opposite. Next time, I will notify the admins if you cuss me out like that again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted August 10, 2004 Devils(Iblis) Advocate You have not defended any of your contentions; the claim that the Quran is the only flawless source remains unanswered and Rahima may All preserve her, squelched your bizarre model of comprehension, but who are we kidding; we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss! And since you decline to acknowledge my queries, its fitting that I present a short synopsis of why the Sunnah is foolproof and that the Quraan is zilch and devoid of any guidance on its own! Before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (saws), every nation on this planet had received a Messenger. The purpose of these Messengers was to instruct their people in how to worship Allaah correctly. The Prophet Muhammad (saws) was no exception to this. If we had been given the Qur’an on its own, then most of us who are Muslims would have gone astray through our own interpretations of this book. Rather, Allaah through his mercy, sent a noble Messenger who came to explain this Qur’an so that the people of the earth may understand their Creator better: "We have revealed the reminder (Qur’an) to you (O’ Muhammad) in order that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them, that perhaps they may reflect" (Surah An-Nahl 16:44) By explaining the Qur’an through his words and actions, the Prophet through his Sunnah, gives us the best example of how this book is to be understood and practiced. This is why Allaah says: "Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have the most beautiful example" (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21) Our need for the Sunnah is so great, that without it our religion would be incomplete. In fact, this is the exact predicament which all the other religious scriptures find themselves in. Books such as the Bible and the Baghvad Gita, are so lacking in a divine explanation, that one can never understand (from them) as how to worship Allaah properly. As Muslims we do not have this worry, because the Sunnah is our divine explanation. The Qur’an commands us to worship Allaah through prayer, fasting, charity etc, but it does not inform us of how to perform these duties practically. It is through his infinite Wisdom, that Allaah has sent us a practical example in the form of the Prophet (saws) and his teachings. The Prophet’s adherence and practice of the Qur’an was so exemplary, that upon being asked about his character, his wife Aisha said: "…his character was that of the Qur’an"( Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.1, Pp358-360, No.1623.) therefore since the Quran is protected By Allah, Then he protects the Sunnah, as shown above, the Quran is meaningless on its own! Furthermore if Allah protects the Sunnah, then its important to note that allah procts all of the Sunnah, its illogical to believe, rather its disbelieve to believe, Allah proctects some Sunnah and forsakes the others! Such attribute does not suit the Lord of the Mighty Thrown! PS>---------------------------------------- We have a Group who adheer to the Quran and reject all the Sunnah, save those that supports an ayah from the Book Of Allah, they are Known as the'Quraniyoon/Quraani" praying behind them is not permissable! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted August 10, 2004 DA asked a simple question and so far no one is giving her the answer. Waa laga gardaran yahay. The simple answer is there is NO ayah addressing this issue especially the way you framed the question. But there is one ayah that could address your concerns. I would like one of the nomads here to get the verbatum translation as well as the verse # for our friend DA. Here it is' Allah said in the Qur'an "Maa Aatakumu rasuulu fakhuthuuhu wamaa nahaa cankum fantuhuu" I will rely on the nomads to translate as I don't want to make an error there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Salafi_Online: Devils(Iblis) Advocate You have not defended any of your contentions; the claim that the Quran is the only flawless source remains unanswered and Rahima may All preserve her, squelched your bizarre model of comprehension, but who are we kidding; we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss! And since you Please stop making references to my name in such a negative light. I do not call you names, and I would like the same respect. I only ask this once. And I thought shirk was a very bad bad thing. We have a Group who adheer to the Quran and reject all the Sunnah, save those that supports an ayah from the Book Of Allah, they are Known as the'Quraniyoon/Quraani" they are kafur(disbelievers) and their blood is Halal, nor is praying behind them permissable! Nice to know. And while you are at it, is there a verse that states that they are Kufars? and I thought believers are people who believe in Allah and the Rasulullah? Wouldnt disbelievers be the ones who reject both? Wouldn't disbelievers be the ones who associate things/people/books/statues to God? Why do you put this little paragraph on bold in any case? These are the questions of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted August 10, 2004 ^^^^ Kufr comes in many forms my dear! anyone who rejects a Hadith that is authentic that does not support the Quran, like stoning and others, is a kafir wheter he says the Shahadatain 1000000000 times or more, it constitutes the rejection of Allah's messenger! Abu Hurairah said that Allaah's Messenger said, " All of my Ummah will enter Paradise except those who refuse." It was said, "Who will refuse?" He replied. "Whoever obeys me enters Paradise and whoever disobeys me has refused ." Reported by al-Bukhaaree (Eng. trans. 9/284/n0.384). Baashi: " whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)[] , and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment."59:7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 ^ I hope you are not implying I am Kufr. Because trust you me, I will not back down. And Are you Godly that you know if someone's Shahada has been accepted or not? Obviously you don't know the first thing about this religion. You need to go back to the Koran and read it carefully next time, maybe you'll find more guidance from your arrogance and self-righteousness. Meanwhile, I will continue my original topic with people who want to talk about issues in their community, because god forbid, someone (especially a woman) critizes the local mosque for not being accomadating is equivalant to a disbeliever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted August 10, 2004 ^^^ no one is saying ur a kafir, im saying that if a person rejects a authentic hadith of the messenger of Allah(saw), because it does not support the quran, then he is a kafir, i dont know if thats what you belief, but... I'll say it again, BUt, if it is, there would be two rulings, either your ignorant and dont know what your saying, or you truly believe this, if its the first one, then you can be taught, you can learn what is what is kufr and what makes someone a disbeliever, its an issue of Tawheed! if its the second one, and your not igorant and you know the Ilm of tawheed, however you truly believe this in your heart, your a kafir with a doubt! Whoever rejects one authentic Hadith rejects the messenger of allah(saw) had refuse the messenger! and i got this from reading the quran and the sunnah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 Wouldnt that be in accordance to your belief system: your sect, subsect, madhab, scholar, theological reasoning, etc etc? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted August 10, 2004 ^^^^ NO this is in accordance with the religion of ABu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and the rest of the companions? I assume you follow them to! “we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss!†and i do Apologize for these remarks! Indeed they were uncalled for! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Baashi: DA asked a simple question and so far no one is giving her the answer. Waa laga gardaran yahay . The simple answer is there is NO ayah addressing this issue especially the way you framed the question. Salaamz, saxib you are right 'ITS THE WAY SHE FRAMED THE QUESTION' and her question is RHETORICAL meaning she knows the answer to it and she just wants to make us look like fools. Now, when someone RAISES AN ISSUE, you can't SEPERATE the PERSONALITY/SPEAKER and the ISSUE. They relate and if someone different had posed the issue/question, then the responses would probably be different. DA/OPI, if you do your daily salats, then you are a muslim and inshallah, I can give you room. But if you ain't doing the min'm and you're critiquing everything Eastern and Islam, then we will continue to debate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Salafi_Online: ^^^^ NO this is in accordance with the religion of ABu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and the rest of the companions? I assume you follow them to! “we’re conversing with someone who campaigns for Ibliss!†and i do Apologize for these remarks! Indeed they were uncalled for! Abu Bakr, Umar, uthman, etc were fine religious political leaders, not scholars. and I don't follow them because they were human beings, and not divinely. I do follow the teachings of Allah and Prophet Muhammad. That's just how I was raised though. And Apology accepted (as I know it was coerced) :cool: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Khayr: Salaamz, saxib you are right 'ITS THE WAY SHE FRAMED THE QUESTION' and her question is RHETORICAL meaning she knows the answer to it and she just wants to make us look like fools. Now, when someone RAISES AN ISSUE, you can't SEPERATE the PERSONALITY/SPEAKER and the ISSUE. They relate and if someone different had posed the issue/question, then the responses would probably be different. DA/OPI, if you do your daily salats, then you are a muslim and inshallah, I can give you room. But if you ain't doing the min'm and you're critiquing everything Eastern and Islam, then we will continue to debate. I was being civil when I asked the question. I could have been more accusatory, and bla bla bla, but fact is, I wasn't. I asked a question, devoid of any other implications. Are there any verses? And if you think saying that there isn't a direct verse for this issue makes you a fool, then it seems like your pride is getting in the way. I take offense when someone implies that I don't get as much ajar as the next muslim when I go to a mosque because of my gender. I don't know who else wouldn't but I speak for me (and not for iblis or any other fancy name the shaitan is reserved for). Again, praying daily makes me a muslim? If I don't pray, I am not then a sinning muslim, but totally outside the scope of Islam as a Kufr. I didn't read that anywhere either. Interesting tidbits I am learning online these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gediid Posted August 10, 2004 I'm lost here.What is the argument all about now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by Devil's Advocate: I don't get as much ajar as the next muslim when I go to a mosque because of my gender. I don't know who else wouldn't but I speak for me (and not for iblis or any other fancy name the shaitan is reserved for). The religion is also based on rationality at times. It wasn't made HARAM accross the Board for a woment to go the masjid. EXAMPLE: If I am running a business, and the business supports a Family and a muslim community but during salat time, I CLOSE DOWN the SHOP to pray at the masjid and end up losing alot of business,not having enough money to support my family and the local muslim community whom rely on me paying for utilities, suffers cause of no money due to ME going to the MASJID for SALAT and closing down the SHOP,Thennnnnnnnnnnn I would say that there is More BARAKAH/AJAR in leaving that SHOP open and not closing it and praying in my shop instead of closing shop and going to the masjid. Likewise, the Hakima/Wisdom behind the saying that a women gets more Ajar/Barakah pray at HOME then in the Masjid is possibly cause: -Wife's preoccupation with children -Danger of a muslimah going to the masjid without her husband, or group of people/sisters etc. i.e. rape (fajr,maghrib and isha salats-no sunlight!) -The physical attraction btwn men and women. A sistah coming out to the masjid, might distract others and attract alot of unwanted attention. (You can attack here!) Hence, some of the reasons why the sisters section in the masjid are smaller. Again, praying daily makes me a muslim? If I don't pray, I am not then a sinning muslim, but totally outside the scope of Islam as a Kufr. I didn't read that anywhere either. Interesting tidbits I am learning online these days. Do you pray then? If not, then why don't you pray? Simple answer might negate any 'possible accusations' against you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
