Islamic Existentialism

[N.O.R.F]

Knowing Allah, our purpose and our end

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Northerner:

JB,

 

You know my (and everyone elses in my view as a Muslim - edit) god. So please use your 'rational' and evaluate his existance. Thanks.

 

Northerner , for Ahura's sake, stop pulling my leg , i woulden't know your exact Perception of Allah, and you woulden't be in for much of a surprise if i asserted that you and you alone have monopoly on that knowledge, we only know what you present to us.

 

That you're all of a sudden reticent or should i say secretive about sharing your Perception of Allah is beyond every reasonable mind here, Your copying and pasting other's atricles and Perceptions are acceptable as ideas and perceptions that you may agree with, but remain nothing but others'.

maybe your days at the politcs section had the best of you.

 

Pooja

Abayo, you stand corrected, you seem to have misunderstood me , i only reject the existence of those Deities that have been presented to me, those Gods i haven't heard of , i woulden't know of them.

 

Maybe,you'd be in for a shock if u found out that there are as much Deities as persons who have faith in them, maybe even paralized to hear your own 'Allah' beeing defined differently than you've ever imagined.

 

 

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Granted but note that

rationally justified to deny anything that is incoherent

only leaves you with justified

belief

, nothing more. One can't verify the truth of your claim (Allah can not exist as He is incoherent) or falsify it. Absent these two necessary conditions for making truth claims (Allah doesn't exist etc), any statement of the ilk is,

prima facie

, mere belief.

SB, you can't imagine how much i appreciate the civility, cincerity and respect it entails to exchange with you .

Let's assume that i'm familiar with Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem, and the paradox of the liar, having a profession that deals with AI on a daily basis, let's assume again that i'm familiar with the journey of an assertion from beeing a paradox to becoming an unproveable to proveable assertion.

 

Without questioning Gödel's theory,i've to clarify the position of my Atheism towards a Theist's claim of certain knowledge regarding the existence of a particular God,

 

Firstly , it's the assertion of the Theist we're soley dealing with, there is no claim of own , the possibility or probability of his claim's trueness and falseness is a function of his claim.

 

F(x), and this is very impotant to understand.

 

The Theist's claim of possessing certain knowledge does not at the same time mean the Theist's lack of possessesion of that very knowledge, that according to "tertium non datur".

 

Simply put, a Theist, by claiming "there is that particualr God" runs over or falsifies the negative or possitive version of his claim,( negative in this case)," there is no that particular God",namely, the very notion that is beeing claimed to be the Atheist's claim.

 

I'am a tall person can't mean i'm a short person at the same time, but runs over or falsifies the negative or possitive version of it's claim , (negative in this case) namely i'm not a tall person.

 

The Theist's conclusion is F(1) through incoherency , while the Atheist's conclusion is F(0) through rationally justified beleif.

 

An Atheist's default position is not "there is no that particular God", it's an ignorant position, it's our natural position dare i add.

 

According to Gödel's oroiginal proof:

"If this assertion is unprovable, then it is true, and the formalization of number theory in question is incomplete. If this assertion is provable, then it is false, and the formalization of number theory is inconsistent."

 

I come off as having a rationally justified beleif while the Theist comes off as incoherently inconsistent, and i've no problem with that.

 

I don't think we so violently disagree !!

[Cara.]

Pooja,

 

I don't finding supernatural claims very convincing in general.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by J B:

 

Pooja

Abayo, you stand corrected, you seem to have misunderstood me , i only reject the existence of those Deities that have been presented to me, those Gods i haven't heard of , i woulden't know of them.

 

Asxantu JB, u and Cara proved that u were never Muslims to begin wit , had no understanding of islamic aqeedah of tawheed.......I suspect Cara was rasied a christian and u had no correct teachings of islam, arabs probably were racist towards u and u linked arabs with islam.

 

Heres the thing man I don’t condem those who doubt/question matter fact those who question (if they are sincere) find the truth-Islam. I remember as kid- 8yrs old sitting on my window late at night looking at stars saying if there is a God out there show me a sign, cause lightening, or cause me to die and bring me back to life.....no joke! I always used to think about why am I here........why are we made like this the human form, ect..........i wasnt cool wit u were born and one day u will die. But I was born with fitra as u.

nothing wrong with questioning..........even the Prophet Ibrahem asked for signs...................here is the problem the sincere person the truthseeker seraches.......they don’t come on forums to argue n to make mockery.........they ask for guidance, they think about the world, themselves and from their reasoning they either accept or reject. U and Cara are not sincere in my opinion.......Allah knows best..........but don’t think u can mislead the Muslims here.........u will only waste ur time ..........sxb this fast life soon shatters...............u will die and u will enter 6 inch hole in dirt:

 

 

 

Stop goofing around, and making mockery and be honest with urself.....sincere advice!

[N.O.R.F]

JB,

 

You disappoint me man! Well not really as i 'know' what you dont

 

The Theist's conclusion is F(1) through incoherency , while the Atheist's conclusion is F(0) through rationally justified beleif.

 

An Atheist's default position is not "there is no that particular God", it's an ignorant position, it's our natural position dare i add.

 

According to Gödel's oroiginal proof:

"If this assertion is unprovable, then it is true, and the formalization of number theory in question is incomplete. If this assertion is provable, then it is false, and the formalization of number theory is inconsistent."

Now, I have never heard of this Godel nor am I into philosophy but don’t you think his above statement is a little simplistic? Ala Darwin’s “we just came to be” theory? I will take it that you cannot prove your stance but still think its true. But one can’t have such an assumption without reading texts in favour of the positive (there is a god). Just as you do when writing essays/reports, one must delve deeper into the argument and cover all sides. I assume you have’nt gone quite that far. Please do and report back any findings.

 

We shall continue in the future IA (god willing)

 

Ps I have given up on politics (for now)!

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Asxantu JB, u and Cara proved that u were never Muslims to begin wit , had no understanding of islamic aqeedah of tawheed.......I suspect Cara was rasied a christian

and u had no correct teachings of islam, arabs probably were racist towards u and u linked arabs with islam.

Khalaf , walalo, abow, you don't need to personalize and speculate on me and Cara's background( as dare i say "we" don't give us the right to speculate in yours), as for my islamic teachings , who're you walalo to call it improper? or Cara beeing raised not by her own (propeply somali )parents ?

 

Just to put you on the right track,i never had anything to do with Arabs in my life, for me they're just like any other ethnic people. I had a "Assyriska" Assyrian classmate back in the 4th grade, I've no reason to hate them.

 

you're right about one thing though, my dislike to the Arabic dominance on the Somali culture is not a thing i try to hide, and it can be wrongly understood, i don't dislike the religion of my own mother( Islam ), i know the difference.

 

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Heres the thing man I don’t condem those who doubt/question matter fact those who question (if they are sincere) find the truth-

Islam. I remember as kid- 8yrs old sitting on my window late at night looking at stars saying if there is a God out there show me a sign, cause lightening, or cause me to die and bring me back to life.....no joke! I always used to think about why am I here........why are we made like this the human form, ect..........i wasnt cool wit u were born and one day u will die. But I was born with fitra as u.

You've my deepest sympathy to have gone through those difficult questios for a child's mind walal, but then assuming that you probably got satisfactory answers somewhere, why not share those answers walal? why not bring it forward and hope we too find them satisfactory walal?

why do you've to instead assume that we came to this forum searching instead of thinking for our own?

 

Originally posted by Khalaf:

nothing wrong with questioning..........even the Prophet Ibrahem asked for signs...................here is the problem the sincere person the truthseeker seraches.......they don’t come on forums to argue n to make mockery.........they ask for guidance, they think about the world, themselves and from their

reasoning they either accept or reject. U and Cara are not sincere in my opinion.......Allah knows best..........but don’t think u can mislead the Muslims here.........u will only waste ur time

..........sxb this fast life soon shatters...............u will die and u will enter 6 inch hole in dirt:

 

 

 

Stop goofing around, and making mockery and be honest with urself.....

sincere

advice!

Khalaf, Have you ever pondered on why more than a billion human beeings adhere to Islam?

Walalo ,If you did , you sure had agree with me that thay're not Muslims just to Mock or question other Faiths. It so happens that one's mockery can be one's questioning.

 

Have you ever wondered how a Hindu person would feel when you express your Islamic stance regarding the existence of other Gods?

 

believe you me , the Hindu's God(s) can sadly feel 'mocked' by the expression of your Islamic Stance.

 

ps... Death is not something to be afraid of, it's a natural thing to do in my books.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Northerner:

JB,

 

You disappoint me man! Well not really as i 'know' what you dont

 

Now, I have never heard of this Godel nor am I into philosophy but don’t you think his above statement is a little simplistic? Ala Darwin’s “we just came to be” theory? I will take it that you cannot prove your stance but still think its true. But one can’t have such an assumption without reading texts in favour of the positive (there is a god). Just as you do when writing essays/reports, one must delve deeper into the argument and cover all sides. I assume you have’nt gone quite that far. Please do and report back any findings.

 

We shall continue in the future IA (god willing)

Sure i could have disappointed you , if you diden't put that tin foil hat on , actually you put on TWO hats just incase.

 

As for Gödel , frankly speaking, he has nothing to do with Dawrin, but it's a common misconception among the theists, that anything areligious is Darwinistic.

 

unlike you, i don't read anything into texts, i just apply a critical thinking, thus stay neuteral in my reading.

 

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

Ps I have given up on politics (for now)!

yeah , sure , and pigs fly.

 

Ps, we both could have been great Agnostics, and bought SB's extra strong hats, but then, you'd have angels flying around the tip of your hat anyway.

[N.O.R.F]

EDIT

 

^^So you do believe in Angels!

 

unlike you, i don't read anything into texts, i just apply a critical thinking, thus stay neuteral in my reading.

Man, I have been pointing towards your ‘critical/rational thinking’ for the past 3 or 4 posts by trying to highlight it’s short-comings - that it is not critical nor rational as:

 

a) You cant prove your stance – there is no god

b) You havnt critically assessed the literature that points towards the contrary – there is one god

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Northerner:

^^Angels are not so small to fly around a hat!

Prove that!

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

Man, I have been pointing towards your ‘critical/rational thinking’ for the past 3 or 4 posts by trying to highlight it’s short-comings - that it is not critical nor rational

In that case , you've been failing yourself by reading too much possitivity in my texts all the time.

 

 

Originally posted by Northerner:

as:

 

a) You cant prove your stance – there is no god

b) You havnt critically assessed the literature that points towards the contrary – there is one god

 

Please define critical thinking JB.

 

You not off the hock yet.

A: Since my stance is a function of your incoherent claim and you woulden't define your God, my stance can only be proved if you define God and existence, my proof demonstrate that there is no emperical evidence for your claim.

 

B: you're in no position to know what i've critically assessed, hence B is rationally false claim.

 

critical thinking is my only thought process where i critically examine the claims and crtique the arguments by applying logic to safeguard my intellectual integrity.

 

Am i off the hook now?

[Johnny B]

EDIT

 

^^So you do believe in Angels!

** JB takes his belongings and moves to the political section . **

 

I'm seeking asylum from Northerner's political theology.

[N.O.R.F]

Here we go again.

 

A: Since my stance is a function of your incoherent claim and you woulden't define your God, my stance can only be proved if you define God and existence, my proof demonstrate that there is no empirical evidence for your claim.

JB, stop running in circles my friend. Avoiding the question posed by claiming incoherence and a lack of a definition is just an excuse. I don’t think I need to further qualify god or the word’existence’ to you as I’m sure you are a clever boy J.

 

B: you're in no position to know what i've critically assessed, hence B is rationally false claim.

You are right, but I also don’t see anything in the way of support for your position through the reading of religious texts (as most people try to do when presenting a case for or against). You must assess the supporting evidence for, even if you think its not worthy, and present your findings. I for one would love to read some of it.

 

critical thinking is my only thought process where i critically examine the claims and crtique the arguments by applying logic to safeguard my intellectual integrity

LOL @ logic

[N.O.R.F]

Originally posted by J B:

quote:

EDIT

 

^^So you do believe in Angels!

** JB takes his belongings and moves to the political section . **

 

I'm seeking asylum from Northerner's political theology.

I'll tell you something, you may be beheaded if you go to the politics section

[Khalaf]

JB, they say u call a spade a spade. Someone is not Muslim because hooyo macaan is a muslim or their name is Abdul, they are a Muslim because they understand the meaning of tawheed 1st n believe in it.......neither u or Cara have understanding of tawheed....prove is your views. I told u to go talk to an imam u replied "why the heck I want to do that?" Wa shash as my uncle says.........u are not interested in Islam/truth, u enjoy to hear yourself speak and to argue what u have no knowledge about.......inshallah Allah will guide but get sincere........truth is sencerity........and as my teacher told me the sincere student learns the most about the secrets of life.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by J B:

let's assume again that i'm familiar with the journey of an assertion from beeing a paradox to becoming an unproveable to proveable assertion.

I'm prolly digressing here but paradoxes (same with "irony" and other mental constructs that we mistake for reality) exist only in language. Proving right them doesn't aid us in ascertaining truth.

 

 

Firstly , it's the assertion of the Theist we're soley dealing with, there is no claim of own ,

 

You're rationalizing your position here. The charge you're making unfalsifiable/unverifiable claim still stands. Are you not claiming Theism is false brought about by it's incoherency? That is not testable claim but mere belief. Thus, why I initially said both you and the Theists got nothing but vying beliefs (theists call it FAITH).

 

 

Simply put, a Theist, by claiming "there is that particualr God" runs over or falsifies the negative or possitive version of his claim,( negative in this case)," there is no that particular God",namely, the very notion that is beeing claimed to be the Atheist's claim.

But how can a claim that can't be falsified falsify itself? The Theist position is not one that lends itself to testability, hence it's merely belief not claim to knowledge. Theists averring so doesn't on that account alone make it knowledge. Knowledge is demonstrable fact. Moreover, if Theist claims are internally inconsitent and constradictory, that discovery is epistimically worthless to your case, ie the Theists are wrong. For one to pass the judgement a claim is right or wrong, one must present a body of knowledge that he/she based their judgement on. Else, it's a belief. Which is my whole point, you got belief behind your claim, not knowledge, just like your Theist counterparts.

 

 

I'am a tall person can't mean i'm a short person at the same time, but runs over or falsifies the negative or possitive version of it's claim , (negative in this case) namely i'm not a tall person.

Wittgenstein (the only and last "philosopher" you ever need to read about) talked about the distinction between language and reality in the Tractatus. While I kinda of understand where you're coming from, I take issue with your, perhaphs poor (because you could've used Gravity, speed of sound, Doppler Effect etc to make your point. The noteworthy difference being, gravity is a fact borne out by empiricism; tallness is not), example. Height. There doesn't exist "tallness" or "shortness" in reality. Only varying heights. We, humans, assign the tags short or tall to certain heights but that's just how we see it and it's purely arbitrary. Nothing exists, that is objective standards, that'll render something "tall" or "short". Saying someone tall or short is entirely subject and by extention meaningless.

 

 

while the Atheist's conclusion is F(0) through rationally justified beleif.

I have no issue with that position. Belief is not knowledge though.

 

 

I come off as having a rationally justified beleif while the Theist comes off as incoherently inconsistent, and i've no problem with that.

If I don't agree with you, how can I show you wrong? Turn to Theist's imponderable beliefs? A set of beliefs repudiating other set of beliefs is vacuous.

[Johnny B]

SB, sorry for the late input, i've been busy doing some weird stuff, got a year older among other things !!.

 

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

You're rationalizing your position here. The charge you're making unfalsifiable/unverifiable claim still stands. Are you not claiming Theism is false brought about by it's incoherency? That is not testable claim but mere belief. Thus, why I initially said both you and the Theists got nothing but vying beliefs (theists call it FAITH).

My position is not beeing fairly charged, That any attempt to prove a negative of this magnitude will not lend itself to testability depends not on my position, it depends on the nature of theist's omnipresent claim.

 

the nucleus of the charge seems to be testing the untestable, and that disregards the fact that only a rationally justified beleif is often based on empirical evidence , i.e more likely to ascertain truth than an incoherently claim based on faith.

 

Would the charges be dismissed if i cut a wide swath and reason that , Since our thoughts and concepts are the exclusive product of our own brain and there is no empirical evidence againt that , i.e that particular God does not exist?