Islamic Existentialism

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Northerner:

^^What do you think of the article?

 

I thought it was poetry section material.

 

 

Do you agree/disagree, what are it's shortcoming, if any etc.

Aren't it's shortcomings too evident too all? I would have thought so. Just another guy talking out of his stinky hole. Another brain fart among sea of brain farts feigning profundity. One can disagree or agree with it the same way one dis/agree with a piece of art. What will settle the issue? How you feel about it? Think again.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

JB, why dont you go to a masjid and talk with an imam one on one?

Why the heck would i wanna do that?

[Cara.]

Xiinfaniin,

 

In principle, if one can’t genuinely discern right from an obvious wrong and relies someone’s else judgment to take a fitting action on it, then is it not reasonable to conclude that the fault lies with that person’s sluggishness and not with the level of the moral clarity of the issue at hand?

You have my heartfelt agreement there, walaal. It's precisely because I cannot accept a moral code in which homosexuality is a huge sin, but the purchase and sale of human beings merely "regulated" that I find religious codes of questionable utility in making the right choices.

 

I agree with you on one thing though: Furqan’s ideal teachings may not always be reflected in the individual practices of its adherents.

That wasn't my point. It's not that people fail to follow what they think are the correct teachings of their religious texts, but that people have vastly different interpretations of these same texts. So my example of men who kill themselves as a means to kill innocent people is hardly a cheap shot. The point is that these men believe that the Furqan's message justifies (nay, demands) their actions. I gather you disagree vehemently. So essentially what we have is people who are completely certain in their faith in the same book, but whose moral outlook as derived from that book couldn't be more different.

 

Oh, but I'm sure you'd both agree that pork is haram, and what a comfort that is.

[ElPunto]

^Pardon my interruption. There is such a thing as consensus in Islam. The consensus of scholars over-rides the claims or actions of what are, very plainly, fringe groups. Nor does differing interpretations/outcomes from one common ideaology limited only to Islam or religion for that matter. Karl Marx's teachings have been interpretated/effected in both benign and murderous ways - and by non-religious people at that.

 

Personally, I find the majority of these debates rather ineffectual. The people on the opposing side are very familiar with Islam and as such are cognizant of the arguments. But they have chosen a different path. Ultimately, any change in faith would have to come from God, for the knowledge is definitely registers.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

There is such a thing as consensus in Islam.

Like the consensus the earth was flat?

[ElPunto]

^Trite commentary - the hallmark of a trite intellect

[Socod_badne]

^Sorry but the tent and choir you were looking for is in Islam section.

 

 

You: the earth is flat

 

The choir: resoundingly echoes you, "THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!"

 

Science: the earth is not flat as empirical evidence disproves you... look even Aritotle knew this and he descried it from observing the shape of earth's shadow during lunar eclipses.

 

You: stomp your feet and stubbornly repeat "THE EARTH IS FLAT!" I got consensus to back me up.

 

 

Oh boy, isn't this consensus stuff surefire way to attain knowledge!

[Paragon]

Lol@flat earth consensus. Cajiib.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

^Sorry but the tent and choir you were looking for is in Islam section.

 

 

You: the earth is flat

 

The choir: resoundingly echoes you, "THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!"

 

Science: the earth is not flat as empirical evidence disproves you... look even Aritotle knew this and he descried it from observing the shape of earth's shadow during lunar eclipses.

 

You: stomp your feet and stubbornly repeat "THE EARTH IS FLAT!" I got consensus to back me up.

 

 

Oh boy, isn't this consensus stuff surefire way to attain knowledge!

If you had comprehended the jist of my comments and other posts - you would have understood the consensus I'm talking about is that on the interpretation of the Quran, Hadith, Fiqh, etc that govern the day to day life of Muslims. This is the established consensus that renders null and void the actions and declarations of fringe groups that they alone are acting on the 'true' religion.

 

If only triteness wasn't the very essence of your intellect - you would have understood that - but then again I expected nothing less :rolleyes:

[Johnny B]

The reason i'm back on this thread is Socod_Badne's wish to see a genuine discussion of Morality , Xiin's claim of having throughly dealt with the subject had be another good reason to hang on, but my disappointment with Northren's sluggishness in terms of contributing and expostulating his stance has been a source of disapointment.

 

I dare assert that human moral values don't need religions or Gods , a simple emperical proof for that is the millions of agnostics/atheists who live and lead a moral life every single day.

 

A genuine moral act "always" constitutes the desire that others do well , without that an action fails to qualify beeing moral, that we eat our dinner is not particularly moral , neither is grudgingly helping NGONGE whom we otherwise wish to drop dead is a moral act, and it is absolutely not morality to help someone besouce that someone or someone else on his behalf either threatens you with punishment or promises you a reward.

[Pi]

Socod Badne loves to post trite comments. He's lazy and dull, just like Homer Simpson. Never take a clown seriously. LOL

 

Hmm, back to the the thread's topic. I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, so I'll just comment on what JB said in his last post. First of all, I dont think anyone would say that only ppl who believe in God are moral. Why? There are ppl who ppl in God, however, they are as immoral as they get. There are also ppl who dont believe in God that are pretty moral (i.e give to the poor, help the weak). But I dont think that was the question anyways. The thing is how do ppl who dont believe in God rationalize their morals. For the sake of it? But why. Basically, the system of ethics of an athiest is based on emotion. That's my two cents, dude.

[Khayr]

dare assert that human moral values don't need religions or Gods , a simple emperical proof for that is the millions of agnostics/atheists who live and lead a moral life every single day.

 

A genuine moral act "always" constitutes the desire that others do well , without that an action fails to qualify beeing moral, that we eat our dinner is not particularly moral , neither is grudgingly helping NGONGE whom we otherwise wish to drop dead is a moral act, and it is absolutely not morality to help someone besouce that someone or someone else on his behalf either threatens you with punishment or promises you a reward.

 

 

J.B. ( I take it Cara too) is your defintion of Morality. Might this be one of the reasons, if not the MAIN reason why you reject Religion?

 

Could we start a new thread to delve into this for the others to understand. Reason being, that more and more people, are starting to have similiar thoughts i.e. I don't have to be Religious to be MORAL/GOOD.

 

Inshallah, I think that a new thread in this section would help clarify some of these issue. Please not that I couldn't careless about the individuals but rather the IDEAS that are being expressed.

[N.O.R.F]

but my disappointment with Northren's sluggishness in terms of contributing and expostulating his stance has been a source of disapointment

I'll take that as a compliment

 

ps i once heard an athiest say "thank god i'm an athiest" what did he mean by that?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

you would have understood the consensus I'm talking about is that on the interpretation of the Quran, Hadith, Fiqh, etc that govern the day to day life of Muslims. This is the established consensus that renders null and void the actions and declarations of fringe groups that they alone are acting on the 'true' religion.

 

If this is what you actually believe, why are you then taking exception to my initial riposte? I re-read what you wrote. With this There is such a thing as consensus in Islam. The consensus of scholars over-rides the claims or actions of what are, very plainly, fringe groups. and the above quote in bold, aren't you essentially saying consensus of Scholars settles the issue or in your words overrides claims of fringe groups? I will be extra cheritable this time and let you articulate your thoughts so as to leave no room for misunderstanding.

 

While you ponder that, it might be useful to consider this. You're simultaneously committing two well known logical fallacies. Appeal to Authority or Argumentum ad Verecundiam (as if Scholars are final arbitrers of truth!) and appeal to numbrs or Argumentum ad Populum (as if by mere virtue of 'consensus' of scholars means we know truth).

 

 

If only triteness wasn't the very essence of your intellect - you would have understood that - but then again I expected nothing less :rolleyes:

Again, you miss the point completely. I can only work with what I'm given. Want better from me? Give me better material to work with. Want better answers? Ask better questions. And in the occasions where you're unprepared for my replies. Tough luck!

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Pi:

The thing is how do ppl who dont believe in God rationalize their morals. For the sake of it? But why. Basically, the system of ethics of an athiest is based on emotion. That's my two cents, dude.

Mr 3.14 , What you disguised as a question there is plainly flawed statement of yours, nobody does things normally for the sake of it.

 

So, let me ask you the question you beg to answer.

As a religious person ,how do you rationalize your morals? why do you act morally? becouse God says so or becouse God will punish you if you don't or reward you if you do?

 

Are you of the idea that religious people's morality and system of ethics are based on Reason?

 

As you can see it Mr PI, you seem to have brought the cleverness of the teenage Solipsist who thought he had stumbled on a way to refute every argument or belief against his position by adopting extreme skepticism.

 

Khayr, no need for grandstandings Atheer, this was not , is not and won't be the last time you throw the towel in and scream " moral relativism ".