Dream or Life, which is the true reality?

[Paragon]

Good response Postman... Sxb you seem to understand my talk of dream and reality.

 

Brother I have gone to Harun Yahya's website. Its superb. Thanks for the link you have provided. It seems it will greatly help if some of us read some of his articles and books about dreams.

 

Salafi,

 

In four consecutive posts, and still failling to answer - from intellect - the question on which the topic is set, you wrote:

 

U see J11 u have good dreams or bad dreams...one is from Allah to conver a glad tiding...the other from Shaytain....thats all

 

Subhanallah...walal u need to stop guessing. Allah said indeed guessing is not a substitute for the truth!

 

Hadith - Muslim 5640, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah, r.a.

Allah's Messenger said: There came to him (the Prophet) a desert Arab and said: I saw in a dream that I had been beheaded and I had been following it (the severed head). Allah's Apostle reprimanded him saying: Do not inform about the vain sporting of devil with you during the night.

 

saying, "A good dream is from Allah, so if anyone of you saw a dream which he liked, he should not tell it to anybody except to the one whom he loves, and if he saw a dream which he disliked, then he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil and from the evil of Satan, and spit three times (on his left) and should not tell it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

 

 

That is what dreams are...And we were created...To worship Allah alone...U will not be helped accountable for what happends in your dream...But in Life u are accountable for everything you do....thats is the difference....

 

This is similar to the man who said that the Quran was created!

 

Imam baarbaharee(d.375) said the following...

 

May Allaah have mercy upon you! Know that the Sunnah is not a matter for analogies or reasoning with examples, and desires are not to be followed in it. Rather, it is just a case of affirming the narrations from Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam), without asking how, explaining or saying: 'Why?' or 'How?'

 

 

May Allah have mercy upon you! Know that heresy, disbelief, doubts, innovations, misguidance and confusion about the religion have never occurred except through theological rhetoric (Kalaam) and because of the people of theological rhetoric, argumentation, debating and disputation. How can a man plunge into argumentation, disputation and debating seeing that Allah, the Most High, said:

 

None dispute regarding the Ayaat (revelations, signs, proofs) of Allah except those who disbelieve [1].

 

You should submit to and be pleased with the narrations and the people of narrations, withhold and remain silent.

 

 

This is ajeeb to say the least but what this does is to confuse the reader and make them use their intellect before they use the Qur’aan and Sunnah, hence man’s intellect is made to be superior then the sources of Revelation. Clearly this manner of argument has not been seen with regards to the salaf(companions..tabein..etc), they never and still do not use man’s flawed intellect and reasoning over the Haqq of the Qur’aan and authentic ahaadeeth

My question wasn't concerned with the evil-ness or the good-ness of dreams, I was only interested in whether dreams were, in essence, the true status of man-kind or not. I didn't seek from you warnings, or accusing me of claiming 'the Qur'an was created. I haven't mentioned anything that depicts the status of my faith nor did I sound like someone disputing Islam. But my friend - salafi - you decided from your own accord to bring religion into the whole issue. I don't have any doubts about my faith nor do I doubt anything contained in it. What I don't understand is why do you -salafi - use Islam as a tool to culminate discusions? Are you of the opinion that we - as muslims - can not engage in any discusion that you may not find comfortable? I don't know. I don't even think your four posts answered the question at hand.

 

Salafi, brother or sister, tell us straightforwardly, can you speak your your thoughts for once rather than preaching as if we are non-muslims?

 

 

Mutakalim you wroteL:

Jamaal 11:- Brother I am still awaiting your response to my post.

Instead, you have chosen to post an equally incoherent article bloated with flacious arguments, logical inconsistincies and the like.

I dare not accuse you of red herring or ad hominimems; so I will await your response.

Also, this whole thread is nothing save philosophical enquiry. Perhaps a rudimentary understanding of philosophy would clear this misunderstanding.

To answer your question, I did not use the terms ontology and epistimology interchangeably, to do so would cause you great confusion, and that I do not intend. By the way, do you suppose that

[/b]

your meditations are in accordance with Islamic Doctrines ('aqaid)?

[/b]

Well, thank you for being reasonable in waiting for my response. Mind you though, when I posted the article you are calling names, I have given a warning of how it may make some individuals confused. Its pretty difficult for some folks to understand it .

 

Sxb my thoughts have nothing to do with philosophy. But since you are so inclined to retreat to philosophy to answer or understand things as simple as this topic, I shall allow you to call it philosophy. I just don't see the fascination with another man's thoughts to figure out what your thoughts are. Could you not think individually? Or does it mean you can't unless you employ the jargons of philosophy?

[Paragon]

Deep Thinking

Those who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "O Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire."

(Surat Al 'Imran: 191)

 

Chaptor one

 

Deep Thinking - by Harun Yahya... ( I found this article interesting.)

 

 

Most people think that in order to "think deeply", one needs to put one's head between one's hands, withdraw to an empty room, and isolate oneself from all other people and affairs. Indeed, they make such a big thing of "thinking deeply" that they find it too difficult, and conclude that it is a quality exclusive to "philosophers".

 

However, as we stated in the introduction, Allah summons people to reflect and says that He has revealed the Qur'an for people to reflect on it: "It is a book We have sent down to you, full of blessing, so let people of intelligence ponder its signs and take heed." (Surah Sad: 29) What is important is one's sincerely improving one's ability to think and going deeper in thinking.

 

On the other hand, people who do not spend effort to that end continue their lives in deep "heedlessness". The word heedlessness has connotations like "neglectfulness without forgetting, abandoning, being mistaken, disregarding, being careless". The heedless state of those who do not reflect is a consequence of forgetting or deliberately disregarding the purpose of their creation and of the realities which religion teaches. Yet, this is an extremely dangerous course that may lead to hell. Correspondingly, Allah has warned people against being among the heedless:

 

 

 

Remember your Lord in yourself humbly and fearfully, without loudness of voice, morning and evening. Do not be of the heedless ones. (Surat al-A'raf: 205)

 

Warn them of the day of bitter regret when the affair will be resolved. But they take no notice and they do not believe. (Surah Maryam: 39)

 

In the Qur'an, Allah refers to people who reflect and who, after reflecting conscientiously, see the truth and therefore fear Him. Allah says that those who blindly follow their fathers without thinking, out of tradition, are wrong. When asked, these people say that they are religious and believe in Allah, yet, since they do not think, they do not amend their conduct from fear of Allah. In the following verses, the mentality of these people is clearly laid out:

 

Say: "To whom does the earth belong, and everyone in it, if you have any knowledge?"

They will say: "To Allah." Say: "So will you not pay heed?"

Say: "Who is the Lord of the Seven Heavens and the Lord of the Mighty Throne?"

They will say: "Allah." Say: "So will you not have taqwa?"

 

(Taqwa: Awe or fear of Allah, which inspires a person to be on guard against wrong action and eager for actions which please Him.)

 

Say: "In whose hand is the dominion over everything, He who gives protection and from whom no protection can be given, if you have any knowledge?"

They will say: "Allah's." Say: "So how have you been bewitched?"

The fact is that We have given them the truth and they are liars. (Surat al-Muminun: 84-90)

 

 

 

Thinking Removes the Spell on People

 

In the above verse, Allah asks people, "So how have you been bewitched?" The word "bewitched" in the verse implies a state of mental numbness that takes control of people as a whole. An unthinking person's mind is benumbed, his sight becomes fuzzy, he acts as if he does not see the facts before his eyes, and his faculty of judgement weakens. He becomes incapable of grasping even a plain truth. He cannot be fully conscious of extraordinary events taking place right beside him. He does not notice the intricate details of events. The reason for people's leading heedless lives for thousands of years and their staying away from thought as a whole, as if it is merely a cultural heritage, is actually this mental numbness.

 

We can explain one of the outcomes of this collective spell with an example:

 

Beneath the earth's surface lies a "boiling stratum" called magma. The crust of the earth is very thin, which implies that this blaze is very close to us, almost under our feet. In order to have a better understanding of how thin the earth's crust is we can make a comparison: the thickness of the earth's crust in proportion to the whole earth can be compared to the thickness of apple peel in proportion to the whole apple.

 

Everyone knows that there is a stratum boiling at very high temperatures right beneath the earth's surface, but does not think much about it. This is because their parents, brothers, relatives, friends, neighbours, the journalists of the newspapers they read, TV programme producers and their university professors do not think about it either.

 

Let us try to make you think over this a little. Let us assume that a person, having lost his memory, tries to learn about his surroundings by asking questions of everyone around him. This person would first ask where he is. What would he think if he was told that beneath the ground he stands on lies a globe of boiling fire and that these flames could gush out of the earth's surface in the event of a strong earthquake or a volcanic eruption? Let us go further and suppose that this person was told that this world is simply a small planet and it floats in an infinite dark void called space and that space contains even greater dangers than the substratum of the earth. For example, meteors weighing tons freely move around in it. There is no reason why they should not alter their courses, perhaps because of some gravitational influence from another planet, and collide with the earth.

 

Surely, that person would not be able to forget, even for a moment, the risky situation he is in. He would investigate how people lead their lives in such an environment to which they hang on by the skin of their teeth. He would realise that a flawless system has been brought into being. The inside of the planet on which he lives contains great danger, yet very delicate balances prevent this danger from harming people, except in unusual circumstances. The person who realises this understands that the earth and all creatures on it live and continue their existence in safety only by the will of Allah, owing to the flawless balance He has created.

 

This example is only one of millions, even billions of examples upon which people need to ponder. Giving another example will be useful to help us understand how heedlessness affects people's faculty of thought and restrains their intellectual capacity.

 

People know that the life of this world passes away and ends very rapidly, yet still, they behave as if they will never leave this world. They act as if there is no death in the world. This, indeed, is a kind of "spell" carried over from generation to generation. This has such a strong effect that when someone talks about death, people immediately close the subject for fear of breaking the spell on them and facing the realities. People who have spent their entire lives in order to buy fine houses, summer residences and cars, and to send their children to good colleges, do not want to think that one day they will die and that they will not be able to take their cars, their houses, or children with them. Consequently, rather than beginning to do something for the real life after death, they choose not to think.

 

However, everyone, sooner or later, will definitely die and after one dies, whether one believes it or not, the eternal life will begin for everyone. Whether this eternal life will be spent in paradise or in hell depends on what one has done in the short life of this world. While such is the plain truth, the only reason why people behave as if death does not exist is this spell that has covered them up because they do not think.

 

Those who cannot, by thinking, save themselves from this spell and therefore from a heedless state, will understand the facts by seeing them with their eyes after they die. Allah communicates this fact in the Qur'an:

 

You were heedless of this, so We have stripped you of your covering and today your sight is sharp. (Surah Qaf: 22)

 

As Allah says in the verse, the sight which here is blurred because of not thinking, will be "sharp" at the time when the person gives account in the hereafter after death.

 

It should be pointed out that people deliberately impose on themselves such a spell. They suppose that by doing so they will live restful and relaxed lives. However, it is very easy for anyone to make a decision and shake off this mental numbness, and begin to live with a clear consciousness. Allah has presented the solution to people; people who reflect can dispel this enchantment while they are in the world. They thus come to understand that all events have a purpose and an inner meaning, and are able to see wisdom in the events that Allah creates at every instant.

 

 

 

One can Think at Anytime and Anywhere

 

 

Such a crowd makes one reflect upon Allah's unique vast creation. Since the moment the world came into existence, Allah has created billions of human faces, all different from each other.

There is no time, place or condition necessary for thought. Anyone may think while walking on the street, going to the office, driving a car, working at the computer, attending a friend's gathering, watching TV or having lunch.

 

While driving a car, for example, it is possible to see hundreds of people outdoors. He who looks at these people can think about many different things. It may come to his mind that the physical appearances of these hundreds of people are completely different. None of these people look like one another. It is astonishing that, although these people share basically similar organs such as eyes, eyebrows, eyelashes, hands, arms, legs, mouths and noses, they all look so different from one another. Thinking a little further, one remembers the following:

 

Allah has created billions of people over thousands of years all different from one another. This certainly is a piece of evidence of what a superior and mighty Creator Allah is.

 

The person watching all these people rushing may be occupied by many different thoughts. At first glance, each one of these people seems like a "distinct" individual. Every one of them has his own world, wishes, plans, ways of living, topics that make him happy or unhappy, and tastes. Yet these differences are misleading. In general, every human being is born, grows up, goes to school, looks for a job, works, marries, has children, sends the children to school, marries them off, ages, becomes a grandmother or grandfather and finally passes away. From this point of view, there are no big differences between people's lives. Whether one lives in a neighbourhood in Istanbul or in a Mexican city does not change anything at all. All of these people will definitely die one day. A century later, perhaps not even one of these people will be alive. The person who realises all this, carries on thinking and asks himself the following questions: "Since all of us will die one day, why do everybody act as if they will never depart from this world? While a person, whose death is certain, ought to strive for his life after death, how is it that almost all people behave as if their lives in this world will never end?"

 

Such a person is one who thinks and reaches a very crucial conclusion from what he thinks.

 

A great majority of people do not think about these issues. If they are suddenly asked, "what are you thinking at the moment?" it will be seen that they think extremely unnecessary things that will not be of much use to them. However, man is able to"think" "meaningful", "wise" and "important" subjects every moment from the time he wakes up until he sleeps, and derive conclusions from what he thinks.

 

In the Qur'an, Allah informs us that in all circumstances the believers reflect and derive beneficial conclusions from their thinking.

 

In the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for people with intelligence: those who remember Allah, standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire." (Surat Al ‘Imran: 190-191)

 

As we are also informed in the verse, because believers are people who reflect, they are able to see the miraculous side of the creation and exalt the power, knowledge and wisdom of Allah.

 

 

 

Thinking Sincerely by Turning Towards Allah

 

In order for contemplation to benefit a person and lead him to the right conclusion, he should always think positively. For instance, a person who - seeing someone far more handsome than himself - feels inferior because of his physical inadequacy by thinking about the other person's good looks or who becomes jealous of this person, is thinking a thought of which Allah does not approve. Yet, a person who aims to earn the approval of Allah considers the good looks of the other person as a manifestation of Allah's perfect creation. Since he looks at this person as a beauty Allah has created, he derives great pleasure from it. He asks Allah to enhance the beauty of this person in the hereafter. As for himself, he also asks Allah for true and eternal beauty in the hereafter. He realises that man can never be perfect in this world, because the world has been created with imperfections as a part of a test. His craving for paradise increases. This is certainly only one example of sincere thought. Throughout life, man encounters many instances like this. He is tested to see whether he displays good manners and a way of thought with which Allah will be pleased.

 

His being successful in the test and his contemplation bringing favour to him in the hereafter depend on his deriving lessons and warnings from the things on which he reflects. For this, it is imperative that one thinks truthfully continually. Allah states in the Qur'an:

 

It is He Who shows you His signs, and sends down provision to you out of heaven. But none pay heed save those who turn unto Him repentant. (Surah Ghafir: 13)

 

Source: Harun Yahya's website

[postman]

Jamaal,

 

I'm glad you have found the website helpful.

 

I'm assuming you have read fair bit of literature on the topic. What are your personal thoughts so far?

[Mutakalim]

Originally posted by J11:

 

Sxb my thoughts have nothing to do with philosophy. But since you are so inclined to retreat to philosophy to answer or understand things as simple as this topic, I shall allow you to call it philosophy. I just don't see the fascination with another man's thoughts to figure out what your thoughts are. Could you not think individually? Or does it mean you can't unless you employ the jargons of philosophy?

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, this will be my last comment on this subject. Anyone with a rudimentary and basic understanding of Philosophy will tell you that the question of Reality is purely and exclusively a metaphysical question. You may not like the fact that it is philosophy but it is just that-philosophy. Still I am confounded as to the reason you think that it is but Philosophy. If it is not Philosophy, I beg of you , what is it? You can call it "amateur speculation" but it is still a philosophical one.

 

If I was not fascinated with the thoughts of the philosopers I would have ,God forbid, espoused so ill a concept as to believe that Dreams are more real than life Anyhow, I would advise you to do your concept justice; in other words, in your future meditations make sure your argument or idea, as it were, does not succumb to the dialectics of philosophers. Perhaps if you answer my primary questions I will bring on my second onslaught

 

This is a philosophical question so I do not see it apt to refer to revealed religon. Read my breif methodological introduction.

 

Salafi:- If you are uncomfortable with philosophy, as are most dogmatists, I would advise you to ignore posts of this nature. Unless ofcourse you believe your faith can withstand rigorous intellectual inquiry.

 

 

This Forum has members exceeding 4000; are not there any who have studied philosophy at undergraduate or graduate levels?

[postman]

Mutakalim,

 

I have studied philosophy at undergraduate level, but I do not feel the need to proof myself to everyone. Surely, the concept that all events and objects that we encounter in real life come into existence as visions and feelings in our brains or that live can exist without the existance of concrete physical world is not a philosophical speculation. I think it is one fitting for a neurologist rather than a philosopher.

 

To conclude what could be a long argument short, your shortcoming is not that you are too familiar with philosophy; it is that you are not familiar with anything else. I think this has always been the source of my intolerance towards philosophers as well as amateur philosophers.

[Paragon]

To conclude what could be a long argument short, your shortcoming is not that you are too familiar with philosophy; it is that you are not familiar with anything else. I think this has always been the source of my intolerance towards philosophers as well as amateur philosophers.

Allaa Yacizak postman!

 

Mutakalim,

 

Brother I am more interested in your intellects than I am into a non-Somali. You are my brother and hearing or reading you speak your independent mind is a triumph to me. Insteading of building on faulty foundation laid by a faulty mind of a westerner, I wish you to build on your own sound foundation. We have to - as Somalis - generate and create intellectualism amongst ourselves. Afterall, no one needs deep thinking more than us -Somalis. We can talk about dreams and learn how to form a set of agreed knowledge on this specific subject, so that we can apply the same metholodogy to other matters of much concern and importance. If we don't do that this moment then our fate hangs in the balance of two oblivions.

[Sophist]

Roll it baby! I am enjoying this far too much. But I see lots of holes in your arguments (Mukalim "I hope you are not Muctazili" and J11).

 

Continue chaps.

[Mutakalim]

Originally posted by postman:

I have studied philosophy at undergraduate level, but I do not feel the need to proof myself to everyone. Surely, the concept that all events and objects that we encounter in real life come into existence as visions and feelings in our brains or that live can exist without the existance of concrete physical world is not a philosophical speculation. I think it is one fitting for a neurologist rather than a philosopher.

 

Is that the instruction you received during your undergraduate studies, viz. that Reality is a question befitting a Neurologist? Adeer you need to demand a refund immediately. As the 20th century Australian-British philosopher,Karl Popper, once said, "in so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is falsifiable, it does not speak about reality."

 

 

J11/Cali: Why do you harbour a personal animus towards all western philosophers? Are all their postulates and theories "faulty". By the way, I am still awaiting your response to my first post.

 

Sophist:- Am I a Mu'tazili? No. What are the holes you see in the argument? By the way, I have perused your Being and Nothingness story and so if time permits I will prepare an unfavourable response.

[Mutakalim]

double post

[Paragon]

double post!

Talking of doubles, are you familiar with the Orwellian 'Double-Think'? I try to adopt that method sometimes and give 'some' credence to Western philosophers but mine is always of paramount importance. I like to hear what living men say not the deceased.

 

I am still awaiting your response to my first post.

I will do as I promised.

 

J11/Cali:

Oh! I see you seem to know me. Have we met, I wonder!

[Sophist]

Mutakalim, I asked the question because mostly the Mutakalim in the Islamic History had been either Ash'aria or Mu'tazila!

 

And about Being and Nothingness, I shall welcome your crirical response (I suspect I will only be able to respond to it fully from afternoon of the 1st of June insha Allah).

 

Cheerio.

[postman]

Mutakalim,

 

You know you are right I should get my money back, they haven’t taught me anything that I did not know before. However, I’m glad you are fond of philosophy but I feel I should correct you. Karl Popper, I think, said, theory will be 'regarded more satisfactory the greater the severity of the independent tests it has survived,' but he insisted that falsification was the only way to finally eliminate an invalid theory, ‘If the theory fails a test, it has been falsified.’

 

In short the nature of the ‘knowledge’, which the inductive method yields, is what can be known for certain is ‘what is not true.’ But to be honest with you I don’t really understand the reason to why you have used this quote, I have never claimed that the topic in hand, dreams, was never a subject beyond philosophy. I simply said it was one befitting of a neurologist. If you feel the need, like most philosophy enthusiasts do, that you need to bring everything in posterity to philosophy, then by all means go ahead.

 

Peace

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdulillah....Wa salamu alaykum....

I was only interested in whether dreams were, in essence, the true status of man-kind or not.

brothers....please stop thinking so hard...

Allah Said in the quran...and since im pressed for time i cant get it now....but no doubt inshallah one of these days ill get it and post it....He Allah said that he has left anothing out in the Quran...everything we need to know is there!if not the sunnah!

 

You are talkin about Dreams....The messenger of Allah saas...told us what dreams are....

 

Muhammad bin Sirin said, "But I say this." He said, "It used to be said, 'There are three types of dreams:

 

1)The reflection of one's thoughts and experiences one has during wakefulness,

 

2) what is suggested by Satan to frighten the dreamer,

 

3) or glad tidings from Allah. So, if someone has a dream which he dislikes, he should not tell it to others, but get up and offer a prayer."

 

Brothers....oh why do u seek a different meaning....why do u seek some hidden meaning...

 

While they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and verily, guess is no substitute for the truth.(53:28)

 

And the messenger of Allah...Clearly explain to mankind the reasons behind dreams!

 

Then one of the brother uses works from yahyharun...a well know extreme sufi...who believes in Wahdatul Wujood I Know some brothers who met this Guy...

 

Yahyaharun refutated:

 

http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001315

[postman]

Salafi_Online

 

I think you are missing the point!

[Maymuunah]

Harun yahya's article is very intersting. I enjoyed it very much..thanks boys.