SOL- I'm disappointed....

[Thinkerman]

You no what lets all just admit to that fact that we all have got issues , and we would do well to come together to solve these issues. No back stabbing, up-staging, or undercutting, but honest appraisals of our very murky logic process, at least when it comes to this argument

 

Lets address truthfully with being patronizing.

The sisters denying that the are too westernized, but cant tell whats left from right.

The Dodgy brothers who want to have the pie and eat it aswell without being scrutinzed.

The Sisters who bring balance, and the brothers who would do well to be less diplomatic .

 

These above form the constituent to these debates.

 

I for one admit to being slightly contradictory in my outlook. Of course we should look to appreciate the various shades of light and darkness that make up the somali psyche.

[Reality Check]

What's wrong with being western?

[Baashi]

What does "being western" really mean?

Does anyone here know?

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

Originally posted by Baashi:

What does "being western" really mean?

Does anyone here know?

Yes, Kaaba Baashi, being Western means daanyeerkii ismooday faras ama baqal.

 

Kii kaseynin, that is precisely the target. One further reason af Soomaali loo diiday in lagu hadlo is allowing yourself to be "Westernized."

[Baashi]

MMA, u meant 'dameer fardo la daaqaa faras buu is moodaa'... I know. Horta maxaa loogu hadliwaayey af Somali waa rune..waxaa laga yaabaa in dadki qaarkii uu dhib ku yahay malaha.

 

It is pity some of our nomad friends get irritated easily when challenged or engaged. It seems as if labels come handy whenever things got little bit heated. Since I’ve asked the question: what does “westernized” do really mean? I should start giving my opinion on this.

 

To me it means assimilation and by that I mean to convert to the ways or to the customs of Western countries. Or get absorbed by its prevailing culture. What’s wrong with “getting assimilated” one may ask. Well it depends, nothing really if you don’t have religious precepts of your own that is markedly different than the Western customs.

 

If you happen to be someone who acts in conformity with his principle – let say practicing Muslim – then “westernization” (the process of getting assimilated) has a lot of things that just doesn’t reconcile with said principles. Gender is irrelevant here.

 

Some distinguished members in this forum have made the link between the desirable values/virtues/attributes and westernization. For instance, assertiveness, personal independence, being self-reliant, and being educated and “westernization”, in their opinion, go hand in hand.

 

In other words the two are mutually inclusive. Can one have all these attributes without getting “westernized”? To some, posing this question alone amounts insult. To others, only haters who are warriors in the gender “war” ask these types of questions! I guess there is some kind of “baggage” attached to the ‘westernized’ word otherwise it would not have evoked this passion in some nomads.

 

Those of us who get their schooling through western institutions are aware the secular assertion that ‘social conformity’ and ‘individual liberty’ are in permanent conflict. I must say I concur that assertion if religion and “social conformity” are defined as two different realms – that is. If you are conservative ‘reer baadiye’ Somali like me, the “westernization” is not only unnecessary but also degrading.

[bilan]

salaam

in my personal opinion one cannot be muslim and western at the same time.to be westernized one has to have western culture and values. western culture is built on several values :

1-christianity, bible is the main source of western culture, so how one can claim to be muslim and derive their values from the bible?

2-western culture has tendency toward individualism,while islam has tendency toward unity, and society as a whole.if people are saying that education, independency,and women trying to have their opinion on everything from politics to the family affairs is western value, then again in my opinion they are clearly wrong, since islam gave these rights to the humanity while western leaders and scholars were debating whether women have a soul or not.so i really do not understand why on earth would a muslim woman chose to be westernized, why would we chose a culture that was questioning whether we are human beings or not less 500 years ago?!!.so i'm one of those who feels insulted by the term westernized ,cause all the good things that are labeled as western i do not see it as western but as islamic values.i would really like to know what some people consider western values that girls are doing?!!, cause what i see on this site is some people are complaining about rights that islam gave women.

[7_steps_2_Heaven]

dawaco abaayadiis waxaan umaleenaa inuu OG_MOTI kuu jawaabay wixii igi saabsanaay.

[Thinkerman]

Com'on baashi bro, we all can hazard a pretty rough deff that we could all agree around of what being westernized means. Can we all agree that it doesnt bowed well for any muslim to become westernised, accepting that we are totally at odds at the various cultural practises of western countries n peoples. The changing of ones prespective is what i consider the most dangerous thing.

 

opinonated abayo, what i would say is wrong about being westernized is that, and lets forget for a second about culture, is the top-down corruption of morality, and the adoption of positions that would most of the time find us at odds with what would 'normally' be sacrosant way of life.

 

This being the dereliction, and the wholesale adoption of foriegn culture and tradtions over our own.

 

Putting aside culture as this is a hottly debatable issue. I will focus with Islam. I can already see in mind some nomads reading these and thinking 'HERE WE GO AGAIN'.

 

But to me being westernised is the adopting of domestic traits and norms. The loss of Islamic Practises i.e. Prayer, Dawah, Charity. Am afraid when one becomes westernized salah, dawah and Zakat, are things hardly at the foe-front of ones minds.

 

Become at odd with anything that might be termed as being Islamic, not somali, but islamic. That to me represent what being westernized represent.

 

If some nomads have confussed seeking knowledge and further oneself as being westernized then that is wrong psoiton to adopt. Being westernized to me represents being a sell-out, and more than that (because who cares what i think) it means to that individual a danger of become lost.

[N.O.R.F]

But to me being westernised is the adopting of domestic traits and norms. The loss of Islamic Practises i.e. Prayer, Dawah, Charity. Am afraid when one becomes westernized salah, dawah and Zakat, are things hardly at the foe-front of ones minds.

 

Become at odd with anything that might be termed as being Islamic, not somali, but islamic. That to me represent what being westernized represent.

Very well put bro,,,,,,couldnt have put it better, with yr iman decreasing, this will lead to westernisation. Alot of ppl think that being westenised means going to uni/college, learning, working, making ends meet, therefore our sisters are called this due to them using initiative and drive to gain whats rightfully theirs, an education. The sisters upon hearign a few knuckleheads call them 'westernised' react to this and say hay we havnt lost our culture we're just getting our 'quals'. The same can be said for men if you like.

 

Westernised=losing yr deen, not losing yr deen will mean u maintaine yr culture, not losing yr culture will mean being close to family and freinds, this means yr in touch with yr ppl, this means yr humble, only real issues matter,,,,, losing yr iman will have a domino effect on all parts of yr life,,,,,,,,,

[PoEtiC-MisKiiNad]

Salamu'Alaakium folks,

i soo agree with this post...lol@OG i feel the same way..i'v always wanted to post a note like this and put it in all those somali peoples faces and let them agree or disagree...but i just couldnt do it..due to the fact that nomads might hunt be back!....anyways i mean no disrespect but some of our somali youngsters are getting corrupted... ..Keep Ya Head up Youngsters!!

[Curly]

I maybe westernised with some of my views but I still know who I am and what my culture is, It's not like as if all those other people are eagerly as attentive to our culture as some of us are to theirs.

[dawoco]

Caramel kisses, xaal qaado walaaleey gacaliso, abkoow moti ha igu soo deeyn ....Walaashaa u naxariiso

 

When i stated this topic it wasn't directed at any gender but was mainly an observation of how we enteract with one another.

 

My main goal was to start a discussion between the nomads and maybe share a view or two.

I am sorry that some people considered this a gender related topic,,,,

Many thanks to those who have shared their opinions on the subject, it's nice to have an open discussion without any one feeling personally attacked...

 

Sophist, as it is with any tradition, ours is an ever evolving one. For example those of us who are abroad might be holding on to traditions that were valid in Somalia when we left it, but that aren't in practice there any more. So we might actually be cnsidered old fahioned by those who have remained in Somalia and have moved on with the times.

 

Baashi, you have simply take the words out of my mind. Each individual might define being "wesrenized" in their own way.

I believe there is a difference between integrating into a society for one's own gains, ku meel gaar, like education etc. And actualy trying to fit into a society and being brain washed into taking their values and norms.

Some things which should be irrelivant, such as the way we dress, are populair example which are used whenever possible to incriminate those considered "westernized"

 

I think there are practial reasons why such examples shouldn't be taken into account. If a man argues that the women have become westernizd because of the way they dress, a woman can argue that men have been corrupted and the fact that the don't were macawiis in an open and proud desply of nationality,is because weey iskala weyn yihiin. And then there is the youth.... "af soomaali waa laga faanaa eey iskoolka ka soo barteen ilmaheeyni"

 

Such accusations are impractical as certain integration are crusial, like learning the languag so that one can obtain an education and through that education get a job trough which one can acccumilate enough wealth to return back home and start improving the living standards there.

But there is a difference between using the "western" way of life to achieve certain goals and becoming obsorbed by that system and losing your way.

As the two are so similar, they seem to be hard to distinguish between.

 

Can we succesfully pull of dual lifestyles without becoming confused and losing our path?

Do we even want to do so?

[Dhagax-Tuur]

Horta maxaa loogu hadliwaayey af Somali waa rune

Su'aal wacan, Jaalle. Maxaynu ugu hadli weyney afkeena hooyo? Maxaynu tusaale xun ugu noqoneynaa jiilalka soo koraya? Maxaynu u tuseynaa in af qalaad in la isticmaalaayi inay tahay wax horumar iyo 'reer magaalnimo' ku jirto?....Sabab? Sabab?

 

Baashi, su'aal wacan baad keentay, raali iga ahaada, qeyb kama aanay ahayn tuduc-da hadda laga hadlayee.

 

 

Fiiro Gaar ah: Baashi igu soo biir, jooji laba-afaynta.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by Baashi:

MMA,

u meant 'dameer fardo la daaqaa faras buu is moodaa'...

I know. Horta maxaa loogu hadliwaayey af Somali waa rune..waxaa laga yaabaa in dadki qaarkii uu dhib ku yahay malaha.

 

It is pity some of our nomad friends get irritated easily when challenged or engaged. It seems as if labels come handy whenever things got little bit heated. Since I’ve asked the question: what does “westernized” do really mean? I should start giving my opinion on this.

 

To me it means assimilation and by that I mean to convert to the ways or to the customs of Western countries. Or get absorbed by its prevailing culture. What’s wrong with “getting assimilated” one may ask. Well it depends, nothing really if you don’t have religious precepts of your own that is markedly different than the Western customs.

 

If you happen to be someone who acts in conformity with his principle – let say practicing Muslim – then “westernization” (the process of getting assimilated) has a lot of things that just doesn’t reconcile with said principles. Gender is irrelevant here.

 

Some distinguished members in this forum have made the link between the desirable values/virtues/attributes and westernization. For instance, assertiveness, personal independence, being self-reliant, and being educated and “westernization”, in their opinion, go hand in hand.

 

In other words the two are mutually inclusive. Can one have all these attributes without getting “westernized”?

To some, posing this question alone amounts insult. To others, only haters who are warriors in the gender “war” ask these types of questions! I guess there is some kind of “baggage” attached to the ‘westernized’ word otherwise it would not have evoked this passion in some nomads..

 

Those of us who get their schooling through western institutions are aware the secular assertion that ‘social conformity’ and ‘individual liberty’ are in permanent conflict. I must say I concur that assertion if religion and “social conformity” are defined as two different realms – that is. If you are conservative ‘reer baadiye’ Somali like me, the “westernization” is not only unnecessary but also degrading.

Again, that was not necessary and stop being so accusatory! were you not taught the art of arguing a point without character assasinating? But I guess that's the SOL way :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

You talk about social conformity and the west. What about somalia? what about SOL for that matter. Anyone who doesn't conform to the general mindset has some sort of "baggage" am I right? I see nothing wrong with being western (in other words, non-somali) and muslim at the same time. In fact, to suggest that all of western culture= gaalo would be an insult to the greater western muslim community. Just because one is western doesn't mean they conform to everything that culture mandates. I think Somalis have this phobia of the western atmosphere..but why live there if you can't be a part of the community?

 

 

I just want to know what is this fear of the word "western"?

[LuCkY]

Oh!

 

I just dont understand how or why 'SomaLi' peopLe(Most of them anywayz that i have encountered) bLame everything on the 'West' and refer to others as being 'Westernized'. ANd CaLL others UntraditionaL/UnSomaLi! :rolleyes:

 

I mean what exactLy does it mean to be Westernized?

 

What does being UntraditionaL mean?

 

What is being TraditionaL?

 

UnSomaLi?

 

Does being educated or seeking higher education mean being Westernized?

 

Do u suddenLy become Westernized because U cant fLuentLy speak/write/read af-somaLi?

 

Does a hardworking,educated,'independent',outspoken-opinionated(voicing ur thoughts)somaLi femaLe become Westernized?

 

N who determines what is considered to be 'Western',UntraditionaL,TraditionaL?

 

I mean Come On!We aLL know that peopLe who grow up in different parts of the worLd and environment arent gonna be the same regardLess of their race and reLigion.And No im not suggesting that When in Rome do as the Romans do ThingyMajiggY!

 

SomeOne EnLighten Me...!!!