SOL- I'm disappointed....

[Baashi]

Dawaco, I hear you! don't be disappionted...these sort of things are challenges we face in life.

 

I disagree with Bulo on the woman status point. I agree that we shouldn’t follow tradition blindly; it is not a religion. To be honest I never thought women as second class-citizens neither my colleagues nor my relatives thought of them that way. I went school and Dugsi Qur’an with them, I had women teachers, and I have women Doctors and Engineers as cousins who grew up in Somalia. This accomplishment would have been difficult milestone for second-class citizens to achieve it. Women were and still are equal, in every sense of the word, to men in here and in back home. There is always a room for improvement and they share that with women all over the world.

 

Westernization and assimilation are different sides of the same coin. Let me point out that gender is irrelevant when it comes to the assimilation. West are known to be a ‘melting pot’ that strips diverse cultures within its jurisdiction their values and offers them its Anglo-Saxon heritage as the norm instead. Its entertainment machine (Hollywood, sports) and the freedom it offers its citizens make the West a cultural powerhouse. This is the big picture.

 

Now the sub-cultures like Somalis are in trouble and could be ‘out of business’ in the future. Somali culture is very flexible culture - one that is part of worldwide Islamic culture - despite what some SOL nomads say about it. It is not perfect and it has some backward features in it.

 

It is wrong to police and enforce it - that is counter-productive. In the some token, it is equally wrong to badmouth it and belittle it. Lets expect different views on this in the forums where issues like this come up.

 

There are self-hating Somalis. I have seen them. They are ashamed of who they really are. It is unfortunate. They see upholding their ‘Somalinimo’ as constraint to realize their potential. It is their call but I think they are mistaken! Thanks to civil rights struggle, we are not in the fifties when mimicking Anglo-Saxons was a prerequisite for upward mobility. You can be educated, continue to have ambition and become enlightened without being assimilated. As others have already pointed out, embrace the best of both worlds but don’t you make other cultures your own - diversity is allowed today.

 

Straighten up your shoulders, keep your chin up, and be the best you can be. Believe me Somali culture won’t get in your way. To the contrary, Somali culture instills its adherents perseverance, self-confidence, and can-do will-do attitude.

[Valenteenah.]

^^ Well put dear.

 

My question would be what do my fellow sisters consider traditional? and is it because of the men that our girls seem to have such revultion for the tradition?

Tradition (Dict definition: The unwritten or oral delivery of information, opinions, doctrines, practices, rites, and customs, from father to son, or from ancestors to posterity; the transmission of any knowledge, opinions, or practice, from forefathers to descendants by oral communication, without written memorials) is important to every community in the world. I don't suppose it is something we can live without.

 

What do I consider traditional? That's a big question. How do you reduce the traditions of a whole culture into a few sentences? I'll get back to this question later.

 

is it because of the men that our girls seem to have such revultion for the tradition?

I wouldn't say so exactly. Going back to an earlier point, I don't believe we have a problem with the whole traditional way of doing things, but rather certain aspects and issues be believe disadvantage us, as Somali women. An obvious example would be female circumcision and infibulation.

 

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to blame men for the way things are/used to be. Women also had and still have a hand in protecting and sustaining the traditions we all hate...

[Raxmah]

Traditions are not statutes that everyone has to live by; every individual has their own value system. Some value traditions more than others. I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with that. We’ve all had different experiences, and we’ve all been raised in different environments.

 

Traditions has not gotten in my way doing things I want to do, some people don't like what I do sometimes because it's so UNSOMALIAN, but what do I care, I do it anyway even though some consider it untraditional, as long as it does not contradict my diin.

 

There is a tug of cultural war for Somali youth in western countries for both genders-most people commented on females becoming so westernized, you’d be surprised by how many Somali guys are worse off, but it never fails no matter how dire the guys are changing it’s always the females who are becoming too westernized, beside the point but anyways no matter how much we ignore our traditions, as we grow older and wiser, we will eventually realize how significant most not ALL of our traditions are in our lives.

 

At the end that’s where we will identify ourselves, with Somali traditions and people whether we like it or not. Beyond doubt though there are things in our traditions that I have an aversion to, but that’s in every tradition. No culture is perfect and Somalian culture is no exception.

[bilan]

salaam

baashi i'm not saying somali men(reer magaal) believe that, and it would have been a real tragedy if they did, and i would have changed my nationality long time ago , but what i'm saying is that somali culture as a culture it self is oriented towards men, and almost against women, a true tradition is not what people in the city practice but rather, what people in the rural area do and believe,all the women you mantioned live and grew up in the city where the society is less traditional and i'm not talking about the city people.the following things are normal to somali culture and no one abojects it: forced marriages where fathers exchange their daughters for few camels, or where the girls are kidnapped by the grooms' family, if woman becomes a widow in somali tradition she has two choices either marry his cousin or leave her children, women were not allowed to inherit.there are some positive things in somali culture as general, but a lot of it need to be changed

[WILDCAT]

By most traditional Somali standards, I'm now a full-fledged heathen. Marvellous .

[Baashi]

^^look who is here...hovering over us like a hummingbird...joining with the crowd as a heathen...outch!

 

Raxmah, if u don’t mind would you plz give us an example of the things that you have done in the past that ‘culture police’ found to be un-Somali.

 

Bulo I concur with what happens in the countryside is little bit off the line...they are minority though and that type of tradition u mentioned is dying out.

[7_steps_2_Heaven]

x_quisit I agree with 110%.

[dawoco]

//////

 

That's good, macaanto....But could you perhaps elaborate on that?

And maybe you could even add a personal view or two.....It kinda work's wonders for discussions to do so, and x-quisite did make several points....So which parts worked for ya?

 

 

Wildcat, i have two words for ya,,,, dhaqan celis ....i'm being shipped off soon,Wanna come?

[OG Moti]

Walee somalida nuune ayaa fahmay.. topicgan waa mid ku bilaawday si fiican oo dumarka xaqiiqadooda soo bandhigay, iyada "dawaco" oo leh dumarkii dhaqankii bey katageen weena waasheen, oo anigu iyo rag aqoonyahan ah kuraacnay arintaa, maaba meeshii waxkale loo badalay... x_quizit waaban yaabay sxb waa maxay qaskaad wado, war westernized bey rabaan iney noqdaan oo aduunkii wey nagu cariiriyeen adiguna waad hor ordi, bal ukaadi .. oo sxb waani dumarkeena meeshaad ku aragto .. hana nagu dirin,

That's good, macaanto....But could you perhaps elaborate on that?

And maybe you could even add a personal view or two.....It kinda work's wonders for discussions to do so, and x-quisite did make several points....So which parts worked for ya

ma ila aragtaan waaa arin cajiib ah, iney inanteena caramel_kisses nagu dirto bey dooni, caramel wey aaminsantahay in dumarka ey traditionkii kunoqdaan hada kahorna weynu kawada hadalnay weyna igu raacday.. wasalaam .. peace

[Valenteenah.]

Raxmah,

 

I completely agree with you. So much comes under tradition, from the most amazing to the most ridiculous, that its probably best for each person to evaluate how they feel about each aspect as and when they come into contact with it.

 

Also, it is quite true that the spotlight always seems to be on the girls, yet the boys are also affected in exactly the same way, if not worse at times. I do believe that the males are in more dire need than the females. Contrary to popular belief, most of the Somali girls in the diaspora are still firmly in the hands of their parents. Those who've scaped the yolk of their parents/guardians, abondoned their culture or become over-westernised are a small minority. Most females work hard to find some sort of balance between the West and the culture and traditions of being a 'somali' girl. And its not very easy.

 

Bulo,

 

"but what i'm saying is that somali culture as a culture it self is oriented towards men, and almost against women"...

 

Well, what do you expect darling? Somalia is and has always been a strongly patriachal society. But having said that, I do believe that nomadic women have always enjoyed more freedom than their city-dwelling counterparts. Am sure this was probably due more to circumstance (the hardships of life in the bush ) than anything else...

 

But it still needs to be noted that even with some of the examples you gave regarding forced marriages and the inability to inherit, not only were women highly valued and protected in the rural areas but they also had a high level of mobility without any restrictions or safety fears. They even used to journey between cities by themselves if they so wished back in the day...I bet it aint the same today.

 

WILDCAT,

 

LoL...Get lost heathen!

[lol]

Dawaco: Walaashiis we have been brought up in diverse environments within Somalia. And each village or city has its own traditions if you look at it closely. We vary in many ways although major things such as religion is homogenous.

 

As a child we are not thought the importance of culture or how to adhere to one's culture. Honestly speaking none of the Somali parents that I have encountered had emphasized importance of culture in young children. Most of the parents are busy adapting to the environment they livein, and tend to forget the one they left. So what do you expect of the child??

 

When we change and become westernized, arab-ized, africanized and oppose our elders'thinking do they realize the depth of our variation. Now who is to blame?

 

As for us women, Somali tradition although has its good but mostly it favors men. All over Somalia women are oppressed and dominated by men. Coming to the diaspora has opened our eyes and altered our thinking. Majority of Somali women were brought up to be slave for the men in thierlife till eternity and they have accepted such a role thinking all women are created for this status.

 

The encounter of western women have forced their inner voice, which has been silenced by society to rise in rebellition, thus causing the present gender-war.

 

Ofcourse like everything else in this world, there are the few that have been blessed all along. These few women who had enjoyed equality even as a child are those that defy the west thinking mentality and respect their men according to ways in which they were brought up...

 

So sister, tradition is merely what you can define in your own words. I believe we are whre we are, because of our lack of the light of Islam and the neglegence of our religious leaders' duty in the Ummah!

[Raxmah]

Baashi

 

We all have our difinition of traditions - so what they thought to be un-somali might be fine with you.

 

I work with teens and we discuss Islam and basicall what is important to us and how we can beeter ourselves. I thought the topic of AIDS was importan and invited a muslimfriend who has aids to talk about her experience and talk to this teens what they can do about it, how to protect themselves and such things. Parents got mad, I was told I did it to give them ideas- LOL what ideas I still don't know. I was told to be disrespecting their tradition-which just happens to be mines too. The whole thing irritated me. I still don't understand how such an important topic be a taboo to talk about especially in this soceity.

[Reality Check]

Dawaco,

 

What do you mean when you say western civilized? Do you mean the western culture or the non-islamic culture that exists in places like the united states?

 

It is possible to be a good muslim and very westernized.

 

One thing I don't understand about some somalis (especially some on SOL) is why is there such hostility towards people who aren't traditional (according to the standards of people back home or westenized? I mean were we all born from the same mold manufactured from the same plant and came with a "How to Be A Somali According to Somalis in SOmalia" manual?

 

Tradition is good, but lets keep our individuality at the same time, eh?!

[Sophist]

Dawaco, great thread.

 

Before we get into the issue; I think it is advisable to ask a preliminary question: Is culture static; or does it evolve with time?

 

From then on can we have a coherent discusion; I shall contribute to this when people take the liberty to respond to this seemingly easy question!.

 

Cheerio

 

Thus Spake I

 

PS; Contrary to the prevailing believe in this thread culture is not relative per se --- let us not trivialise the whole thing by making it subjective.

[OG Moti]

dear CULTURE is never static, it changes, and it is called Cultural shift... but why are u being so smart on us, and making me and dawaco look bad looool, all Dawaco said was Somali girls i think she said some somali girls think Somali culture is backwards and western way is the way or the highway, that is all she said and she was asking the dumarka to Stop and think, are we doing the right thing and do we need to slow down, and is being indepedant means leaving ur culture and take the western culture where women seem to be kneck to kneck with men? those questions was asked by dawaco.. and i agreed with her that is all... peace