Greater Somalia?

[miles-militis]

Amen old chap!

For the debate to have some value could we for a moment push the clock back to prior to 1898 just before the scramble of the dark continent ensuing the arrival of the Europeans onto the land of the Somalis, and ask ourselves how and what was the shape of the Somali territories? How is it that the legacy of the vagabonds supersedes, thus overrides the regional one?

[Baashi]

^^Why don't u get us started...I think it will shed some light on this whole issue of "Greater Somalia" by putting the historical inquiries that we may have about this in prespective.

 

Pal it is all urs...enlighten us.

[LadyMo]

Originally posted by Gediid:

ExDane

You are getting educated for your own personal gains not for national purposes and when I say help I think if someone is truly committed to helping they will know where that help is required

Gediid maybe I am gettin educated for my own personal gain but wat makes u think I cant accomodate my gains wiv my people?? Maybe my gain aint money but rather the happiness of my people!

Doin sumthin for them that they otherwise wudnt hav been able to do! Dats my abitions and my reason for studyin!

 

I originally said

Originally posted by ExDane:

Dont u think dat we are helpin by gainin education & takin it back wiv us?

Note TAKIN IT BACK WIV US!!

i.e to re-build our land

& create things which need expertice beyond their capability!

Sorry but dat to me is helpin out nationally!

 

Thanx Baashi dont worry my dreams and hopes of Somalia and Somaliland will neva die!

 

Originally posted by idil:

As Ex Dane said yes Somaliland "was betrayed"...but so was the rest of Somalia.

Dat is pretty much self-explanatory when Somalia had a DICTATOR & I neva said dat other parts of Somalia wasnt effected but imagine dis..

I hold u and all ur class mates hostage at gunpoint in ur classroom, u manage to escape, wud u stand in de corridor and wait until the rest of them got a chance to escape or wud u keep runnin and get on wiv ur life??

 

I must say dat a lot of people (not just SOL members) for 1 reason or de other cant stand de name HARGEYSA. (I guess dats their problem)

Wat if we said Burco became the new capital instead wud dat change sum minds??

 

Burco compared to Hargeysa does hav better & bigger road conditions but then again Hargeysa is more known and easily accessible from other cities.

 

Originally posted by zynab:

if you want somalia to unite why have hargeisa as the capital. ex-dane dose it have proper roads , electricity,in place. and what goverment are you talking about . please inform me.

Zynab sis wat wud u prefer??

Obviously Hargeysa's got roads and electricity.

U havent heard of de government there well then I guess u listen to de next Somali BBC coverage or if dats too much of a bother check de other pages here on SOL particularly de Politics section.

 

Originally posted by Ameenah:

Somaliland has peace because the people of Somaliland want peace..

True say!

 

But since we hav peace why not try to include de rest of de Somali people and try to help them out a lil? I mean if it doesnt work we can always go back to being Somaliland.

 

I guess de reason why dis whole united Somalia thang is in my head soo much is because I only just recently got used to de term and ideaology of Somaliland when I went there last summer.

I grew up lovin all Somalis for being Somali and I guess I always will to de day I die! Howeva I also hav great hopes and dreams for Somaliland.

[Caano Geel]

devils advocate: I say bomb the whole country to smitherines and untill everybody agrees they are one people with a common intest that can only be fullfiled with the help of one another

 

----------------------------

war, hated and conflict

[Blessed]

Originally posted by ExDane:

True say!

 

But since we hav peace why not try to include de rest of de Somali people and try to help them out a lil? I mean if it doesnt work we can always go back to being Somaliland.

 

I guess de reason why dis whole united Somalia thang is in my head soo much is because I only just recently got used to de term and ideaology of Somaliland when I went there last summer.

I grew up lovin all Somalis for being Somali and I guess I always will to de day I die! Howeva I also hav great hopes and dreams for Somaliland. [/QB]

Sweetie.

 

I am totaly with you on this one. I really hope taht one day we can have some form of unity. Like Scotland + England, The Emirates, The USA and all those countries with decentralised state. I also, have a feeling that is how we will end up. Laakiin, I personaly don't feel that Somaliland should give up it's independence untill there is peace in the South and untill our people are ready for such unity. May be in 5 ten years or longer ... but not now!

 

Also, I don't know if you already know but theres been a refferendom on this and 97% of Somalilanders who voted wanted independence ... this shows that if unity is imposed on landers now, there will be resistence - which is understandable considering how hard they've worked for their independence and the lack of trust that exists between our people (north south - east west). The ppl have to want to be one - not forced into it... after all it is they that have to live with governement ... not us spoilt qurbo kids :rolleyes:

 

But in Sha Allah .. when the rest of Somalia gains the peace and stability that S.land has and is (still) working towards and our people are reconciled .... I don't see why we shouldn't reunite. It makes us stronger in so many ways, na mean.

 

and for Sland helping Somalia gain peace... Honestly and truely ... will reer Somalia allow Riyaale and UDUB to meddle in their affairs? landers rnot the only ones resisting unity.

 

we got to be practicle hon. in the mean time let there be peace.. if it means having a thousand little states .. so be it ... peace should always be a priority.

[Caano Geel]

honey ;-D

 

agreed, its not a matter of partitioning land, but bringing people together.

[Haystak]

For quit some time now, a hot topic of debate within our community has been Somalia V.S Somaliland, and the Northerners right to claim sovereignty. Since May 18, 1991, so called Somaliland has been a self governed state. Although still not recognized by any other government, except maybe Ethiopia “a long time supporter of a divided, weak Somalia” the self proclaimed government of the Northern region of Somalia, have been persistent in their efforts in winning international recognition. Many ask how dare they claim to be independent from the rest of Somalia. Other ask what brought them to this point, where they no longer want to rebuild what has been destroyed with their fellow country people. Well, you can get many different answers for these questions, so I’ll share with you what I think about all this mess. People from the North say they were betrayed by the Southerners, and can never forgive them for the lose of 500,000 human lives, they suffered in 1988. Ok…to be sympathetic, 500,000 lives is a great lose. However, a million plus, and still counting is an even greater lose, and I’m sure no one can disagree. Yes…losing 500,000 lives at the hands of other Somali people is a terrible thing, however, losing a million plus, and still counting at the hands of other Somalis is even worst. What I’m trying to say is...people from the North make it seem as if only they saw the effects of this civil war, that some how mysteriously destroyed the whole nation. People still die in Mogadishu…and the ones that live to see another day, still face the reality of hunger. Let’s be honest, the South has seen the worse of the worse of what this war has to offer, however, they still have the courage to talk about rebuilding Somalia…may I add a united Somalia including all the five points of the star, with all Somalis. If more lives were lost in the South, more women raped in the South, more orphans in the South, more hungry in the South, then where do the Northerners get the audacity to even declare themselves sovereign, because of 500,000 lost lives? That to me is not only ignorant, it’s also selfish. What’s really funny is…many in the North say they will never rejoin a “GREATER SOMALIA” because the 500,000 they lost in 1988…15 years ago, is unforgivable. However, they go on to say, if the capital city of a “GREATER SOMALIA” is Hargeysa…then all of a sudden 500,000 isn’t as much anymore. This makes one wonder...how genuine the whole claim to sovereignty the Northerners are claiming, because of past betrayals, really is. Fact…people in Somalia in general, die and go hungry everyday, however, “Somalilanders” wants to cry about 500,000 lost lives, which were lost nearly two decades ago. Ogadenia is Africa’s own case of Palestine. Ethiopian invaders systematically killing hundreds…thousands every year, day, hour, minute. However, that doesn’t matter much; because 500,000 lost lives in the North is a much greater issue…so great it’s worth claiming sovereignty over. The ironic twist though is…the same people saying they want a fresh start, and want nothing to do with a greater Somalia, elect people directly linked with the regime that has done the people of the North so wrong. Mohamed Egal…peace be upon his soul, held many positions in the former government. Heck, the current president Dahir Riyaale was in the former Siad Barrie regime…as a matter of fact he was even in charge of an intelligence organization set up by Siad Barrie…the (SSN), which was responsible for the kidnappings and killings of many people in the North, however, that’s the leader they choose to start off fresh today. If the people of the North are willing to forgive, and forget the pasts of their leaders…then they should forgive and forget the past problems they’ve faced with other Somalis. Look, the only real solution is, for all sides to come back to the round table, and talk shit out. Somaliland, Punt land, Jubbaland, My-Land, Your-land…all that shit won’t fly. Somali people have seen enough BS…to help them walk a straighter path today Insha Allah. I’m not here trying to specifically pick on Somaliland. However, every other break away region…including all their major figures, show up to all the reconciliation meetings…everybody except representatives from Somaliland. The only way we can ever move on, and come to an understanding, is through dialogue.

[Haystak]

''imagine dis..

I hold u and all ur class mates hostage at gunpoint in ur classroom, u manage to escape, wud u stand in de corridor and wait until the rest of them got a chance to escape or wud u keep runnin and get on wiv ur life??''

 

 

Now Imagine this...you, and your family are held at gun point....you manage to escape...the rest of your family doesn't...and should expect the worst. Do you you just walk away with your life...or do you go back and help, anyway you possibly can?

[Cant_Remember]

Gashaamo,

 

I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote "What this simply is the "Historical Reference" to which we debators of this two opposing concept are refering to, is wildly different in tones, in memory, and in the written bold fact -much of it witten in blood, may I add-, as to what this much-argued concept call "Greater Somalia" on one hand is as apposed to the counter-argument concept of somaliland on the other hand is inherently about, and therefore consequently, we are unlikely to reach a point whereby we could collective say that, this point is a given and we all believe in as the starting logical point of what we are as people of somalis origin, and then proceed to fashioned an end-point of the argument as the ultimate fact that we all accept as a desirable outcome."

 

It's amazing how those who tried to respond to your well-formulated argument ignored the essence of your piece but instead picked up the most obvious and the most personal and detailed bit of it. Perhaps they found it difficult to unpack it.

[SUBURBAN]

Baashi said 'so far Djibouti fulfilled the true Greater Somalia vision'

 

Baashi thinks its ok for Djibouti to be seperate from 'Geater Somalia' because most of the people want to be. Why can't you accept the same for Somalilanders? Don't you believe in whats good for Boutis is good enough for the Landers? The only difference between Djibouti and Somaliland is Lander fiddled with 'Somali Weyn'. Does this 'true vision' of yours see that there are people in neighbouring countries who would love to join Somaliland if they had a choice?

 

Positive mental attitude is one thing, burying heads in 'Somali weyn' sand is another. Thirty years of United Somalia turned out to be a disaster with a run-down colonial infrastructure for most of the country. Its early days but Somaliland is producing better results for its citizens than under United Somalia with no foreign debt around its neck. If takes a creation of Somaliland to end police brutality and departure of an army that behaves like an occupying force, then I for one am for it. The choice (for Somalilanders) in this debate is whether to continue what we have started or join the 'warlords' in Nairobi to create 'Greater Somalia'. Does anyone think the Kenyans are helping people capable of taking the NFD? I think its a message to NFD Somalis saying 'lucky you!' and other stuff.

 

Rather than staying up all night looking for ways to undermine Somaliland, I suggest people try to atleast learn from it. The little stability Somaliland (alxamdu lillah) has is not because of piliticians or peace talks in foreign capitals or lack of weapons but because the people just want to get on with their lives.

 

Hibo thinks 'The(USA)would sent troops to unarm the civilians. So far after all GREATER SOMALIA will make it...'

Haven't they tried that already? Maybe that too was not a failure just 'failed leadership' and would be 'back on track' soon. If the US can disarm anyone by force it would start in its backyard. Voluntary disarmament could be done without help from anyone from outside.

 

'Patiots' who want a United Somalia believe it would lead to self determination for people living in 'Western Somalia'. These 'patriots' have already decided to call it 'Western Somalia' and do not believe in self determination for the people in Somaliland

 

 

I've seen many wacky compromise ideas in this forum, like the one suggesting moving the kangaroo court from Xamar to Hargeisa. Why don't we start with sending Somaliland peace keepers to Somalia?

 

Gediid said it once i'll repeat for those who did not get it the fist time, the war in Somaliland was not for us to rule Somalia or to make Hargeisa the capital of it but to bring permanent change.

 

Let us all imagine the impossible and invent a united Somalia tomorrow, would this country have to rearm to get self determination for the rest of Somalis?

 

How do we know 'a bad leadership' would not hijack it again?

 

Who and where are the leader who can produce a united Somalia and lead a to 'Somali weyn'?

 

If 'Somali Weyn' is Islamic what plans does it have for the neighbouring Muslims like Oromo, Afars, Swahilis?

 

Somehow i don't think a journey that starts with 'warlords' meeting in Nairobi will end up as Islamic 'Somali weyn' with a blessing of Muslims around it. I think we should try new route that choses peace and stability over greatness and wars.

 

Baashi if you decide a change of career is needed you can take the vacant post of ambassador of Somalia to Somaliland .

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MAR IDEGE ALLAH HA CAFIYO

[LANDER]

Haystak,

 

First of all sxb, ease up on the presumptions concerning somalilanders aight.

many in the North say they will never rejoin a “GREATER SOMALIA” because the 500,000 they lost in 1988…However, they go on to say, if the capital city of a “GREATER SOMALIA” is Hargeysa…then all of a sudden 500,000 isn’t as much anymore…they say this …they say that…etc…

You know its quite easy to make convincing arguments when you based them on your own presumption. TNG government had already proposed to make the capital of the next Somali state in Hargeisa, and yet you don’t see the people of Somaliland going to trade in their sovereignty. Now getting back to the idea of presumptions let me give you a few examples of my own. Suburban Nomad is 100% right when he talks about GREATER SOMALIA including Djibouti. If you ask southerners whether they respect Djibouti’s sovereignty they will reply “yes” ask the same for Somaliland and you might end up in a fight. I think many Southerners get sicken by the idea of Somaliland simply because they feel a peace of land that belongs to them (but really doesn’t), is being taken away. It is not out of love or brotherhood that they oppose Somaliland as they would like us to believe. Of course this doesn’t fit to all southerners but the greater majority I would have to say.

 

Haystak saids: people ask themselves “how dare they claim to be independent of Somalia?” I can see where you coming from with that, since for the 28 yrs previous of 1991, Somalilanders had very little to do with their own self-rule and destiny. So hence the question how dare they claim to be self-determinant and reliant? Am I right? Or maybe its how dare they claim sovereignty over their own lands?

 

Of course I might be mistaken with the above presumptions and so feel free to let me know if I am.

 

Whatever the questions that arise in the minds of southerners, they must come to understand that each time they disrespect somalilanders rights to self-determination, they only fuel the fire of Somaliland nationalism. If southerners were serious about unification, the biggest step they could take towards that goal would be to respect the self-determination rights of somalilanders. That might sound contradictory in terms of geography, but it would certainly go very far in changing political mindsets. I will leave it to the Somalis ability of foresight to comprehend this concept. But let it be known that SOMALILANDERS will never relinquish sovereignty or their self-determination, come hell or high water.

[LadyMo]

Originally posted by Ameenah:

we got to be practicle hon. in the mean time let there be peace.. if it means having a thousand little states .. so be it ... peace should always be a priority.

Well said!

 

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

its not a matter of partitioning land, but bringing people together.

How can u bring ppl together when there's no peace? Or if they're gona act as a barrier of peace??

 

Originally posted by Haystak:

Now Imagine this...you, and your family are held at gun point....you manage to escape...the rest of your family doesn't...and should expect the worst. Do you you just walk away with your life...or do you go back and help, anyway you possibly can?

Look Haystak b4 u turn dis whole argument into whether or not ur a coward, think about dis, why wud u run out in de first place?? Aint dat being a coward? I mean u'd hav 2 go out first to decide whether or not u shud in fact help ur family? Why did u turn ur back first time round????

 

The best option in ur worst case scenario wud be (In my opinion) to go out think things through accept wat has happened and move on unless u become soo stable u believe u can carry out sumthin in there (2 help ur family) u cudnt do b4 u ran away-sumthin like a miracle! Plus remember there's no help for miles & no1 else really cares!

 

Originally posted by LANDER:

If southerners were serious about unification, the biggest step they could take towards that goal would be to respect the self-determination rights of somalilanders.

I agree wiv dat statement once they accept Somaliland as either a nation or a state or wateva as long as they can say Somaliland is a self-governing institution in its own right dat neednt any assistance from any1 else but themselves, things shud b aight! Insha Allah I pray for dat day but dont get me wrong Im still a great believer of 1 Somalia for Somalis but as any career advisor wud say; Break ur final goal into smaller chunks so u can feel gratification more often!

 

Im out...

[Gabbal]

Lander aboow I'm just curious, but when was this?

TNG government had already proposed to make the capital of the next Somali state in Hargeisa, and yet you don’t see the people of Somaliland going to trade in their sovereignty.

[Gabbal]

Somalia Hanoolata, for those of you who are both optimistic or pessimistic.

 

[LANDER]

nice map horn_afrique,

I've seen this one before. It's the stuff dreams are made off, but at some point we have to wake up and face reality my friend. it would be nice if we somalis could lay claim to the Ogaden territories, Hawd and the south western territories occupied by Kenya. But One step at a time. You cannot go from anarchy to claiming so called "recognized and sovereign territories" of other nations. Speaking of recognized, theres is a bit of Irony in this involving Somaliland. Many Somalis like Hornafrique and my self don't see territories like the Ogaden as part of Ethiopia. Yet they are so called "Recognized" borders of Ethiopia. If you tell an Ethiopian that the Ogaden regions don't belong to his country, he'll ask you to go look at the map "recognized by the UN of course". Even though he very well knows that the majority of ppl in that region are somali, and they are against Ethiopian occupation. I find it very Ironic that this is the very same argument used by anti-Somaliland patrons. A function Somali state with the borders represented on that map is at least a few decades away, if ever possible. By that time it is well possible that Ethiopians might overun the occupied territories and replace the somali populations with their own.