Greater Somalia?

[India]

BAAAASHI: my brother what is this obsessivness with Somaliland....you need help walahi! Your hate is so transparent and it shows how consumed you are by it all....let go becuase "wanu gosanay". And nothing you say will change that. To put it mildly "you know Somaliland but Somaliland does not know you ". Now what does that tell you! I hope you can read between the lines. All most all your threads are regarding Somaliland. You know how to talk, we (Somalilanders) take action! I rest my case.

 

 

Dusty.

[Blessed]

Originally posted by idil:

Salaam

 

Somaliland have created some sort of democracy, but it all is down to what does a person defines democracy as. Prior to the election there was conflict whether there would elections held in Sanag or Sool. There were disagreements between the Puntland government which said that a lot of the people that lived in those areas were Harti and therefore part of Puntland but the Somaliland government replied with that those areas were part of the British Somaliland Protectorate thus part of Somaliland (I don’t know if elections where held in the areas). And now that the election results have come through and Riyale has been named the president, his opponent (Silanyo) still has yet to accept the fact that Riyale has won, even after a recount of the votes. The problem with Somaliland is that it is very hard to understand if it is a qabiil based state. Sometimes I find myself asking that if an ***** candidate had won, with there be the resistance there is to the Gudabirsi (excuse the spelling) President now? As Ex Dane said yes Somaliland "was betrayed"...but so was the rest of Somalia.

 

Baashi it may have been the leadership that failed, but it was the people of Somalia that stood by and let it fail, otherwise there would not be such anarchy in our homeland that there is today.

 

Personally, I think that the scars run deep, a Greater Somalia can be achieved only when Souther Somalia finds peace and when we forget the qabiil mentality that many have. Until then let Puntland and Somaliland be as there are.

 

However as Matkey said an Islamic run country with the Isalmic shariiya as law...I find it hard to believe we would fail. Allah (swt) knows best and what better way then living life as He stated??

 

Wasalaam

Nicely put sis.

 

 

Sorry to sound skeptical (spl) but the way things are going Somaliland will end up destrying itself. We need to get rid of the leaders we got today and replace them with people that are really passionate about building the country and stop this qabiil based bull.

 

The UDUB v Kulmiye affair is getting out of hand now. I really had a lot of repect for both candidates but their true clours are surfacing now - power hungry morons (do excuse me).... I mean what is more important peace and stability in our country or who / qabiil of the president?

 

I think Landers should concentrate in resolving their internal conflicts - it doesn't matter if others accept it or not. These ruthless odayaal need to go! That goes for every part of Somalia.

[Baashi]

Originally posted by Angel-Dust:

BAAAASHI: my brother what is this obsessivness with Somaliland....you need help walahi! Your hate is so transparent and it shows how consumed you are by it all....let go becuase "wanu gosanay". And nothing you say will change that. To put it mildly "you know Somaliland but Somaliland does not know you ". Now what does that tell you! I hope you can read between the lines. All most all your threads are regarding Somaliland. You know how to talk, we (Somalilanders) take action! I rest my case.

 

 

Dusty.

That's quite a charge. Now I want u to be nice and elaborate on this. Walaalo why don't u name one post in which I showed or even hinted a hate toward the good pple of Somaliland? I've never started a threat about that subject and this one is not about Somaliland. Why on earth would u go out of ur way to lie?

 

Sis u need to learn the fact that we are not clones...we differ on subjects, we reason and at times rationalize events differently. If I had questioned the wisdom and rationale behind the secession...that does not amount hate! does it?

 

Let me dream! That is not too much to ask?

[Gabbal]

Sis u need to learn the fact that we are not clones...we differ on subjects, we reason and at times rationalize events differently. If I had questioned the wisdom and rationale behind the secession...that does not amount hate! does it?

Wisely put walaal. I've been watching this thread from the sidelines and I have come to the conclusion that if baashi were running for president of Somalia, I would not only endorse him or be his campaign manager, but also be his personal Aide if not more. Baashi I have not met a person on this forum who cares more about the motherland more than you do (maybe there are more who don't show, I don't know), but I applaud your efforts to debate intellectually while still putting down insults and such without responding in the same manner. :cool:

 

I say again good job :cool:

[Gediid]

Ameeneh said

 

Sorry to sound skeptical (spl) but the way things are going Somaliland will end up destrying itself. We need to get rid of the leaders we got today and replace them with people that are really passionate about building the country and stop this qabiil based bull.

 

The UDUB v Kulmiye affair is getting out of hand now. I really had a lot of repect for both candidates but their true clours are surfacing now - power hungry morons (do excuse me).... I mean what is more important peace and stability in our country or who / qabiil of the president?

Where do you get that from.I don't see Silaanyo running to Burco to mobilizse an army or kaahin ordering the army to crush Kulmiye and by the way these same odayaal are the very reason Somaliland has peace.I just don't understand where you get all that.

[Gaashaamo]

Dear Mr Baashi, And Hornafrique,

 

One of the standing issues that those tireless somali-weyn "Dreamers" always are adept in producing as a valid counter-arguments as to why anyone in somaliland with his full sense and thinking faculty intact will be willing to re-joined with that pergutory delusion known as a somali-weyn hell-hole, is that collectively they argue that we are better in union than apart as separate states.

 

Now this arguments is superficially attractive, to those who simply lack historical perspective, and more to the point, could not imagine the sheer one-sided deal that somaliweyn concept was to begin with, at least from the perspective of the somaliland thinkers and intelectual from the beginning of that not-lemented experiments known as the "Greater Somalia"; also the consequences of that cheap dream is all the more evident in somaliland, when one consider the hugely deliberate negligence as a state-policy and the state-induced political action, that sanctioned the genocidal catestrophe that had befell on the people of somaliland.

 

Secondly, I do really believe, that sometime we are in the process of the dailogue of the "Deaf", for the simple fact of the matter is that somaliland is unlikely to be persuaded to discard the historical "Self-Evident" reality that the concept of somali-weyn had brought about, and more to the point, the believers of somali-weyn ideology are unlikely to feel intrinsically the negative-side effect in which that experience of that "Experimental Concept" known as the "Greater Somalia" had wrought for those who saw it in action or who were at the recieving-end of the action of that policy; and that is the crux of this never-ending saga of cross-talking purpose, as to the what is the historical "Memory" we have today at hand, in-order to ascertained what fact or concepts shall we endevoured to established for tomorrow.

 

What this simply is the "Historical Reference" to which we debators of this two opposing concept are refering to, is wildly different in tones, in memory, and in the written bold fact -much of it witten in blood, may I add-, as to what this much-argued concept call "Greater Somalia" on one hand is as apposed to the counter-argument concept of somaliland on the other hand is inherently about, and therefore consequently, we are unlikely to reach a point whereby we could collective say that, this point is a given and we all believe in as the starting logical point of what we are as people of somalis origin, and then proceed to fashioned an end-point of the argument as the ultimate fact that we all accept as a desirable outcome.

 

What this comes down to is a meaning which is that every article of that argument that makes to some people appealing as concept, is without a doubt a comprehensive non-starter as argument for others, because the original action of "Somali-weyn" ideology is written in "Blood" of those same citizens who believed in it in the first place, and that "Historical Memory" is the fact that buried as a "Still-Birth" that Hallucination known as a "Greater Somalia Idealogy".

 

Thirdly, it's evident -not withstanding anybody cherished dream- that the intelectual raison-detet or the edifice to which the concept of somali-weyn should be based-on, is irreversibly dead and buried, at least from the perspective of the people of somaliland; and that is copper-bottomed "Giving Reality" however hard it is for others in the southern somalia to countenance or accept as a "Fact Of Reality"; one would or at least had hope such a basic proposition, would of being easy for others in somali-weyn's camp to come to terms with, however unplataple scenario it may be to their cherished dreams of "Greater Somalia".

 

Forthly, as a side note, Mr baashe you do remind me a fellow somali-weyn believer, that I used to know back at my university days in early nineties here in London(UK), that chap -who shall remain nameless for the purpose of this little discourse- was an ardent proponent of such a dream; god only knows how many days we forget to eat and never finished our lunch in the student canteen while we debated back and forth this exactly same concept; it's heartening in a dejavu sort of way to notice but exceptionally pointless to me that after 9 years there are still people who do seriously entertained that a notioned of "Somali-weyn" can be Marketed to those who deliberately set sail in different direction for the benefit of their nation's destiny as somaliland people had manifestly decided to persue their statehood, and the saddest thing of all is that, this Merchant of greater somalia idealogy who are in the market -mostly in the cyperspace and the online marketplace- to find a willing Buyers amongst the inhabitant of somaliland who may be tempted to this second-rate goods of greater somalia ideology, are still of the mind that this "Empty" Statehood idealogy, which is bereft of anything of substance, that may appeal to others, are genuinely deluding themselves that it has a potential to attract others, despite the fact that 11 years had passed and elapsed, since the people of somaliland had decided collectively to bury the dead weight that they had carried on their shoulders for a long 31 years.

 

This seeming in-ability for the proponents of somali-weyn idealogy to internalised a concrete reality on the ground as given fact is serious case of myopic self-deception, and that my dear friends -particularly Mr Baashi And HornAfrique- is genuinely warysome thought for anyone to bonder on for a moment.

 

Lastly, but not least, as for that little description of me by Mr Baashi, when he had temerity to accused me as a "Self-preening" and as someone who is given vent to his "Humbug Fulmination" against the local nomads who congregate in here, and who had the gall to dream of "Greater Somalia".

 

I can -as a fitting riposed for your little insolence- seriously suggest to you if it comes to choose either as beign a merchant "Myopic Self-Fantasist" which is the prognosis of the case you -Mr Baashi- are severely belaboring under -whether however this malady is willfully induced or whether it has beign contracted by contamination of others of similarly ill-dispose, is a matter for neuro-fronsic diagnosis, and suffice to say, that such a procedure is beyond the scope of this discourse- or whether either to be as someone who is -in your description of me- as a "Self-preening"; if all I have to do is to make choice between the two article; I would without a moment hesitation, be glad to be the latter who is someone who has got some substance of fact of reality to prance or to dance about on the seen as a self-congratulating and as a self-satisfied self-preening fellow; as apposed to be a cronically clinical and exceptionally myopic self-fantasist.

 

And that my dear Mr Baashi is the difference between me as somalilander who is aware of the fact of my reality, my potential as a people, as of my ingenuity of making national statehood out of the ruins of greater somalia state-prison, and the far brighter satisfying destiny to which I am constructing for my tomorrows on one hand; and on the other hand we have the myopic merchant of self-deluded fantasist, such as yours and others the likes of HornAfrique and Sumurai Warior who are in that pitifull state, who is stuck with a miserable and failed dream known as a greater somalia, with a destitute national honour, seriously malignant national dignity, teaming with a child-killers and brutal warlords, bereft of anything worth aspiring to as a people, other than the latest demeaning order from the self-appointed igad apparatchiks and functionaries of ethiopians and kenyans so-called peace mediators, as to what to think of collectively and imaginatively or consciously for that matter, and what manner of statehood to hope for as a nation known as the former failed state of somalia -what a fallen fate for a nation to contemplate-.

 

And of all of the delusional fantasy an individual can be entitled to habor within him/herself and believe as a reality; this is the fact on the ground, to which some of you -apparently educated, with a mind to rationalised things through- are seriously entertaining that the people of somaliland at present or for that matter in the forseable future, will suicidally enjoined with you in this sanked ship of an experiment known as a greater somalia ideology to the bottom of the sea!...what a pitiful proposition for anyone even to contemplate to believe in it even for a one minute....

 

This is in a nutshell Mr Baashi is the wide un-brigeable gulf of reality between what you and I holistically represents -conceptually speaking that is-, when I argue with a certifiable facts the irreversibility of somaliland as a national-statehood on one hand, and lo-and-behold of course unsurprisingly you argue blindingly the desirability of greater somalia state-ideology on the other hand.

 

With that, I rest my case as to why people of somaliland chose to "Moved-On" with their destiny and the believe that they shall forge a nation of their "Choice" by their own sweating two hands; as apposed to be beholden to a Fantasy that once upon time we called "Greater Somalia Dream", but sadly now deservedly lays decomposingly rotten as corpse in the graveyard of the lementable History of our yesteryears, that shan't become our tomorrow's destiny.

 

Regards,

Gaashaamo.

[Medley of extemporanea]

I would like to see rule of law and total freedom of movement of goods and people throughout the Somali areas. Positive unity will promote success for the Somali peoples.

 

illmatic, then maybe you extent that road trip even further

[Baashi]

HonAfrique,

That is very nice of u bro...thanks. Nah I wouldn't be a politician. I've already chosen a career and I'm gonna stick to it for now. Btw, for the unlikely event of becoming the president of the Land of anarchy, I would nominate you the minister of resettlement - the job description would be to convince the nomads to.....

[Baashi]

Gaashaamo,

Let me recap your premises for the benefit of the nomads who wish to follow this…please correct me if I misread your post. Here they are:

 

1. The intellectual raison d'être “to which the concept of Greater Somalia should be based-on, is irreversibly dead and buried”.

2. As a “myopic self-fantasist”, I and my likes are engaged in a futile quest for lost union.

3. Your attempt to link these two premises to “The case as to why people of Somaliland chose to "Moved-On" with their destiny”.

 

That’s the crux of your post as I understood it.

 

First one: That long article of yours is supposed to refute this concept known by some as “Greater Somalia” and other as “Pan-Somalism”:

1. The new republic promotes by legal and peaceful means, the union of the territories.

2. All ethnic Somalis, no matter where they reside, are citizens of the republic.

3. The republic does not claim sovereignty over adjacent territories, but rather demands that Somalis living in them be granted the right of self-determination.

4. The republic would be satisfied only when their fellow Somalis outside the republic had the opportunity to decide for themselves what their status would be.

 

These four points are very noble points to me and many other nomads. I’m well aware that conditions that we are in today is not conducive in realizing that noble cause any time soon. The goodness of this concept is not in question. It is not dead and buried but it surely had suffered a considerable blow. The priorities have changed; the task has now become how to stand up on our own feet once again – not how we could help other Somalis in need.

 

Second one: Implicit in your argument is that I and others are engaged in a futile quest for lost union. In other words, anyone who embraces the “Greater Somalia” concept is a “myopic self-fantasist” beating a dead horse. Well not really. I happen to be disappointed Muslim for I see that Islamic World is being dominated and led by the nose by the West. Yet I have a hope that this domination and aggression will not stand. If we put our hands together we can make some progress however small that is. Likewise, as realist, I see the facts on the ground are antithesis to the progressive culture and mentality that are needed to bring about what that concept envisions. Netherless these facts do not absolve us the responsibilities of setting high standards and prioritizing - first being how to get out this deep hole that we are fallen to. We need to change these undesirable facts. Rejecting unity on the basis of grievances that we have with a leadership that no longer exist, as you seem to be suggesting, surely represents a total loss of perspective and sense of proportion, from your part.

 

Third one: You seem to conclude that you had made the case as to why Somaliland chose to secede. I commend the nomads in that region that they find a way to sort out their differences without disturbing the peace. It’s my firm opinion, however, that the secession is counter-productive to the stability of the region. It tends to balkanize the horn. Brother you and other pro-secessionist have an interesting dilemma to deal with; on the one hand you want to unilaterally disregard the legitimate “Act of Union” in 1960. On the other hand you want to deny Puntlanders the same right, namely unilateral secession which you yourself consider sacred. Remember "what is good for the goose is good for the gander" proverb. At the end it boils down that if Somalia is divisible so is Somaliland. That hasty declaration of independence was a mistake. It led pro-secessionist to declare tribal Bantustan State - that is what it is and it will remain so unless we reach reasonable resolution on this subject very soon. This balkanization serves no purpose.

 

Gaashaamo, you are on an evitable collision course with reality. Time will tell.

 

Humilty is a good virtue,

Baashi.

[Libaax-Sankataabte]

Originally posted by Baashi:

HonAfrique,

I've already chosen a career and I'm gonna stick to it for now.

Baashi, I guess it is hard to give up the fun in engineering design and process developement. Who wants to be politician oo internetka laga caayo.

[Blessed]

Where do you get that from.I don't see Silaanyo running to Burco to mobilizse an army or kaahin ordering the army to crush Kulmiye and by the way these same odayaal are the very reason Somaliland has peace.I just don't understand where you get all that.

I been chatting to the elders, reading up and listening to the news. I think they could have handled the situation better- as grown ups do. But sorry for being concerned for my country. I guess we'll just ignore our leaders and follow their lead to - whatever :confused: :mad:

 

Somaliland has peace because the people of Somaliland want peace but there is still a lot to be done on the issue of unity (of Landers) and development of the nation - odayaashu seem more concerned with being in office then that.. my observation... U don't have to agree.

[miles-militis]

Dear Baashi – Do not you despair, for the dream for a greater Somalia is well alive and kicking far better than ever before though testing times, pitfalls and the unknown factor which tends to scare the living daylight out of most people hang on the balance. The road to recovery is being paved, and shall be reached. It is a process all societies, present or ancient, generally go through in their turbulent times of realisation of desired paths and determination of the future, some attained through harsh and hard realities. Somalis, though suffered painfully and perhaps not as severe in many aspects as had been predicted according to credible resources including the EU and the UN as other nations in the present or past considering conditions on the ground, learnt arduous lesson in their societal movement from the old traditional systems of governing with which Somalis struggled so badly to the expense of the majority that is less fortunate to a more contemporary, if not perhaps indigenous, type of governance seen in my developing as well as industrial nations.

 

What have been witnesses over the past dozen or so years in the old country has been a perfect example of an impaired natural process by way of manipulating traditional methods whilst abusing learnt systems in the process of due progression towards societal maturity and growth in all its aspects, societal, communal, governmental, legal as well as procedural. The penalty, though a hefty one has I trust been paid by the groups least responsible for the resulting occurrences whilst culprits still remain lurking on the horizon for an ample opportunity to waddle the swamp for the mud to blur the desired vision. Could we afford to let that happen?

 

I believe we are better off in many way (private sector) whilst worse off in others (public sector, culture, heritage, literature etc) today than we were in the eighties and nineties. Gain some, lose some as it were.

 

It is notable that almost always discussions to find a befitting resolution for the old country begin and end in the same sentence. I wonder why? Anyone willing to venture an opinion on the matter is welcomed.

 

Instead of addressing the issue concerning the location of the capital city, where do Somaliland or Puntland fit in a future Somalia, should we not be discussing core issues which are the very nucleus of the national predicament, impetus of the downfall of the nation, driving force for the destruction of governmental and structural systems in the old country, and most of all should we not be taking our time in a clean discourse studying one issue as a time?

 

Such issues which require to be studied and addressed include:

• Reconciliation (incl. body and mind),

• Realisation, owning up and sanctioning of retributions, and punitive damages when considered suitable,

• Compensation for the victims and penalisation of the villains,

• Recovery and relocation of misappropriated objects of substance

• Rehabilitation of uprooted civilians,

• Re-appropriation of land, property, and personal belongings,

• Harmonisation of communities where forgiveness is sought and given,

• Re-configuration of a viable system of government to the local region, district up to the federal institutions,

• And then perhaps we could approach the many other issues relating to geographical, structural, socioeconomical or otherwise worthy matters on the path for all developing nations one at a time. Not only shall this enrich, inform and educate the young, but a resolution, and a viable one, shall be derived from such healthy discourses in that on the other side practices and exercises of value could be attained.

 

And I trust this was Baashi and others of the same mindset were attempting to achieve in their initial manoeuvring, but it appears as always it appears one or two with limited vision arrive the scene, twist the tail, bombard others with obscenities, hence decapitate the spirit in one stroke. The dilemma that befell the nation thus lives on!

 

On the issue concerning Somaliland or Puntland as far as I am concerned is outside the domain of the discussion, is not up for discussion at least for the moment, but is definitely within the scope of the subject matters addressable as and when aforementioned issues have been set aside, not necessarily agreed upon, but laid to rest for good measure.

 

Please continue the debate and remain objective. And let us agree to disagree on the core issue that matter, not frivolous matters of no substance.

 

Untill then so long!

[Lixle]

Baashi,

Brother you and other pro-secessionist have an interesting dilemma to deal with; on the one hand you want to unilaterally disregard the legitimate “Act of Union” in 1960.

It is always wise to cross check you arguments with the facts... Mr. Baashi, you termed the so called fake union of the 1960s as a "legitimate" one... I would like to see your prove of that...

 

Mr. Baashi, the facts on the ground is there were never an "Actual Union", since the parties involved never signed the actual "Union" documents. THIS IS THE FACT!!!

 

I ask you: Assume the recent "Puntland Peace Accords" document were never signed by both Col. Abdulaahi Yusuf and Gen. Adde Muse... Would say then, that document is a legitimate one, if it were never signed nor any witness??

 

Another case to consider is the recent "Sieze Fire" document signed by the Warlords in Eldorete, Kenyna. Assume the Warlords never signed that document... would you then say, it is a valid and legitimate one??

 

The answer is, obvious to both cases and all other contract documents... they need to be signed to become valid.

 

The same applies with the 1960s "“Act of Union”, I repeat, that document was never signed!!!

 

So, essentially, there was never a legally valid "Act of Union" between Somaliland and Somalia.

 

The whole fiasco was a highway robbery, aided by the overwhelming Somaliiland support for il-fated dream called "Somaliweyn". In reality and in legal terms however, the whole union, has no bases whatsoever.

 

And to futher clearify, the Somaliland people overwhelmingly rejected the 1961 referendum. But again, a Southern greedy warlords, ignored the fact that Somaliilanders were not happy with the union.

 

So, therefore, Somaliland has a clear legal grounds to stand on its own.

 

 

That was only a clearification and corrections.

[Gabbal]

loooooooool

[Baashi]

Libaax, right on boss...now I know u r a nerd! u had it coming sxb...why u expose me like that:) On a serious note though it is both challenging and rewarding profession...it is fun.

 

Sumarai_Warior, No despair...I heard ur positive outlook. As African Americans say 'Keep ya head up bro and keep hope alive'.

 

Mujaahid_lixle, Thanks for the correction. The "Act of Union" was signed on June 1960 but never ratified.