SCORPION_SISTA Posted April 10, 2003 We always hear the term “it was their time to go” and for the last couple of weeks it’s been running around my mind. If someone is meant to die at specific time, does it really matter how he or she died? For example, we punish those who kill others, but weren’t the people they killed meant to die that specific day or time? So then why should we punish them for it? And if that is the case, then is it save to say someone’s death is actually determined by the actions and decision of someone else rather than Allah setting an specific time for people to pass away? But if not so it brings up other questions, if the time is pre-determined by Allah, then does it mean regardless of the way it happens, a person will die despite anything on specific date or time, and in this situation do we still or should we shoot the messenger (meaning the person who kills a person.)? If we as human race stopped making choices in terms of killing each other’s(death), then would we all die of natural deaths? These types of deaths can range form illness, diseases, or natural disasters. Sorry if I rambled on or something, I was just writing quickly trying to get those ideas out…I guess those are enough questions for now…bee bye till later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diaspora_Dude Posted April 10, 2003 Death is the ultimate price that human beings are subject to and every individual will meet that price at a specific time, date, and occurence. However, the answer to your question is we should punish the "Messengers " to show that the rest of society or those who are about to commit heinous crimes that their action would not be tolerated and they would be held accountable for their action and be punished accordingly. Therefore, by punishing "Messengers" it would set a standard that deter other civilians from commiting any wrong doings to fellow human beings. Peace Love & Unity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCORPION_SISTA Posted April 10, 2003 well Prettyboy, i don't see crime stopping anytime in our human race existance, i mean even the ultimate punishment from Allah doesn't stop many of us from committing sins. And not everyone who kills someone is put into death row, so what's the point of having someone just sitting in jail for however long, and does that really stop them from committing other crimes? if so how many percent? Let's use this for example, u hated me prettyboy and decided to kill me. Now u succeeded and i am dead. Now my question is whether i am dead because u made a choice or whether Allah has determined for me to die on that day no matter what? if it is the later one, should u be punished for it because u were doing something pre-ordined by Allah or not...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted April 10, 2003 SCORPION_SISTA, Wow! This is deep sis. Let me try, before i do that let's agree on these premises: 1. Man's freewill is a fact...in other words SCORPION_SISTA has a total freedom to choose whether to kill her neighbor or not. 2. Allah is Omniscient...in other words Allah knows the future because his infinite knowledge. Now if we are in agreement...let's move on to say that Allah is testing man, by giving him free will to choose between right and wrong. It does not matter, if the results are already known to the Almighty or not. The thing that matters is that whether or not man is free to do right, if he chooses to, or not. Both faith and power of reasoning lead us to the right conclusion...we are indeed free! If u still have questions...u are not alone, the concept of freewill and predestination or Qadar is very complicated concept..I recommend u to listen Dr. Jamal Badawi's lecture on this very issue @ Islamicity.com and..click Radio then Dr. Badawi Islamic teaching series..browse through u will find 30 min segment of that lecture there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCORPION_SISTA Posted April 10, 2003 Hey baashi i will definitely do so, thanx a lot for the information. And i do agree with ur two points u mentioned. But my problem i think was that when a lot of people talk about such issues as death or other, that everything is sort of written and determined and non-changeable. Which then to me seems like life itself defeats the purpose of living and free well....I believe that every tiny decission or action we take alters our future in a major way that we can't even begine to imagine the consequences...Because from most of the people's attitude it seems that we say it was pre-determined a person's death time, but at the same time punish those who committed those crimes???? I guess it didn't make sense to me how they thought about it.... I guess maybe it's the terminology that i might be having problem with in terms of how death is viewed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paragon Posted April 10, 2003 Anything we do or happens is pre-destined to create a platform by which freedom and equality operate. The predistination of events are beyond any human punishment, but the cause(human action) itself which advocates for death, is subject to human punishment. This is so due to the fact that people who kill are punished for simply denying the victim his/her natural right to die or curtailing his/her freedom to undergo nature's justice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diaspora_Dude Posted April 10, 2003 I don't hate you Scorpian_Sis matter fact I LuV U, as you mentioned in your scenerio Just Kiddin' Lol; However, you are thinking very deep sister. Let me come to answer your example, you are dead because of predetermined time and the person performing the action is the "CAUSE" OR "REASON". I know this answer will not make sense to you but this is the easiest answer to give without violating any of God realm. Sometimes questions that involve "Why's" are harder to give tangible answers to any other questions and we have to be careful when responding to these kinds of q's at the same time not commit any sin!!! I hope this will enlighten you and shed a little light into your endeavors Scorpio_Sis Peace Love & Unity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captivating_SouL Posted April 10, 2003 Scorpio_Sis i see clearly what you're trying to implicate but has the thought "faith & believin occured in your head"? There are somethings that are said and done....for example, no one can varify who wrote the qur'an, when it was written,how it got to us..how it survived all those thousand yrs. Questioning whether death by someone was meant had it be their time or not...that's something very difficult to answer and i believe a shiek would of said the same. Death is envitable..it will happen you want it to or not. I believe that just as it was said..we have the rite to choose the rite path and a wrong path...which ever you so choose in the future will not stay w/ you forever..there's always reminicin and change and allah is a great forgiver regardless. Secondly death was written for you in a book as you were born...whether a person was to murder you, car accident, elevator etc... Thirdly, bout punishing the person who murdered is and will remain in jail for their action. ( islamically speaking, killing of any kind is wrong intensionally of course..not self-protection). The reason why they are placed in jail is mainly (1) to teach those followers, of the consequences (2) so he wont do it again when and if he gets out. And just maybe by placing a crimal in jail just maybe someone can live. All we have is faith...believing and worshipping the all mighty. For instance, how did the qu'ran survive?...(sorry if i'm incorrect) but this is my opioion....that one of the prophets consumed knowledge from allah...brought it down to earth...and pass it along to their people. Generations after another...the written words got lost but ....there were elders, shieks, friends of prophets that remmeber his words, his encourgment to his people etc...and that's how it survived...by keeping faith. so eh..start the revolotion of believin.... enuff said *1 *** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted April 10, 2003 Scorpion-sista, u wlc...u seem to have more questions and that's natural curiosity...u must have high IQ to dwell on areas reserved for philosophers Okay let me try again if I may: If people make the statement that events, past and future, is pre-decreed, predestined, by Allah...that is indeed valid statement. If innocent Jamac dies, for instance, at the hands of Farah...and he does so willingly perhaps out of revenge we can make two statement: 1) Jamac is dead because Farah killed him not because it was written somewhere. It is written on a book because Allah in his infinite knowledge knew this was coming and had pre-decreed and recorded...Hadii aad maqashid tiisii baa gashay ama waqtigiisii baa dhamaadey...that is acurate statement. 2) Farah's action, to kill Jamac, which emanted from his freewill is not dependent upon Allah's pre-knowledge of that action. Thus pre-knowledge of any our deeds doesn't affect our deeds in any way. Allah's omniscience does not, in any way, affect man's free will. U may ask: Why punish poor Farah for an action Allah knew beforehand? that is only a philosophical question. It has no practical significance at all. It would only have had a practical significance had Farah known about what Allah knew beforehand and then would have tried to alter it. As things stand, for all practical purposes, Farah is responsible for the actions that he committed with his freewill and this responsibility is not affected by whether Allah knew about Farah's actions beforehand or not. phew! Sis this kind of philosophical question that may cast doubt in our hearts should not be posted (just opinion)..I hope nomads don't get confused...and learned nomads (culimada) can shed light on this difficult subject so Scorpion_sis has the clarity she is after. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCORPION_SISTA Posted April 11, 2003 “Sis this kind of philosophical question that may cast doubt in our hearts should not be posted (just opinion).” It seemed to you earlier I was being deep but now I am doubt caster? You know I have been a member of this site a year now, and through it all, I been surprised by some people, but I can say today for the first time I have been disappointed by someone I respected and admired here… Someone from my childhood once told me when I became of age, “that I have the right to choose my religion and what I make of myself from today on,” and I have never taken that lightly. I am a Muslim person today, not because my parents and their parents were, but because I have faith in Islam and have made it to be my destiny. I have always thought one cannot just have faith in heart but must also have faith in mind. Therefore I have always questioned and questioned again, not because I doubt in my heart the words or the wisdom of Allah, but because I believed with logic it strengths my faith and make me see the wisdom more. Do you think if earlier Muslims didn’t question their own faith, worshipping stones or Saanib, which they created themselves, would they have became Muslims? A blind man can’t lead and a blind man can’t follow unassisted. Our children will ask us questions because they want to know why something is done and to strengthen their faiths it is our responsibilities to question ourselves so that we strengthen our believe first. Not just tell them “that’s how things are.” Because tomorrow Kaafiir will ask them about their religion and they would be asked to analysis or explain, and if they are unprepared then in their hearts will arise doubts. You know what I am asked everyday why I wear Hiijab or why I don’t drink or why I don’t this and that, and if I don’t have a back-up or logical (philosophical) arguments to support the wisdom of Allah then…I haven’t done my job as Muslim person…When one is told someone worships a cow and automatically it is asked “why?” Or we need logical arguments provided to us for starting war in Iraq, it is accepted questions. I wish we don’t run and hide from questions that digs into our roots of faith, because a tree without strong roots cannot withstand time or strong winds…I would like to say thanks to those of you who have given me some insights and hopefully this topic in a good way made someone think..And that is my opinion.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paragon Posted April 11, 2003 Originally by Scorpion_sistah: Our children will ask us questions because they want to know why something is done and to strengthen their faiths it is our responsibilities to question ourselves so that we strengthen our believe first. Not just tell them “that’s how things are.” Because tomorrow Kaafiir will ask them about their religion and they would be asked to analysis or explain, and if they are unprepared then in their hearts will arise doubts. Yup..... I couldn't agree with you more . Allaah has given us the brain to know, recognise and to understand why things are what they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captivating_SouL Posted April 11, 2003 A T T E N T I O N: EVERYONE Obviously people forgot the point of what i was saying in my previous post. All i was trying to implicate was the fact was "faith" and "believin" . About that whole thing i said of "....for example, no one can varify who wrote the qur'an, when it was written,how it got to us..how it survived all those thousand yrs" I WAS IN A RUSH AND PRETTY MUCH TRYING TO STATE MY THOUGHTS ...BUT I FOR ONE WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT, WHAT I SAID WAS WRONG...MAYBE I SHOULD HAD MORE TIME TO EXPRESS WHAT WAS NOT OBVIIOUSLY BE HEARD. OF COURSE THE QU'RAN WAS WRITTEN BY ALLAH S.W.T AND PASSED BY OUR DEAR PROPHET MOHAMMED. ANYWHO JUST WANTED TO SAY THE FACT THAT...FAITH AND BELIEVIN. *1 *** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted April 12, 2003 Abaayo SCORPION-SISTA, Reasonable people can sometimes disagree...I sincerely thought that this question might be better handled by 'Ulama'...they are better equiped to answer it than most of nomads here. Abaayo I might have seen it from different angle than u...u see the nomads can read ur question and may wonder too...and if they don't get the answers...well that's not good! That's all. Please accept my appology if I mispoke...never meant to accuse u or any way to discourage reasoning, curiosity, discussion, and what have u. I agree with u...one would be better of to have knowledge in the faith one believes in than to have blind allegience to that faith. Note that I tried to answer it...the only thing we differ is to whom or where we should direct our inquiries...especially the religious ones with such depth as urs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Che -Guevara Posted April 12, 2003 Scorpion_Sista....Iam glad to see people coming the same conclusion as i did.....Many muslims discourage from asking questions(iam not referring to anyone here, iam talking in general!).....Wat they fail to understand as muslim , iam not questioning the word of Allah, but i simply wondering the logic behind it. It is sad to see many young muslims in da west looking all puzzled when a nom-muslim asks a question about Islam. Besides,One need to understand curiosity about your Islam will strength your conviction.N one will be at peace with themselves knowing where their religion is coming from.....It is liberating! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCORPION_SISTA Posted April 13, 2003 Brown_Sugah..I was sure u would catch the mistake soon enough but it seems your pm might have been hit with some people wondering what u were talking about...Anyways thanx for giving ur input in this topic... Hey Baashi i had nothing against your answer, in my opinion that is the answer I have arrived at myself. I just wanted to clearfy few things about this topic. I wasn't asking people to give me a definite answers or anything like that, i just wanted to see how people reason out with questions such as these. And maybe for those who wonder about those questions, they would seek "Ulmmah" for answers...I just didn't want to be by myself wondering and finding out the answer but to have even at least 2 other people wonder and seek answer too maybe then i did my duty as a Muslim person....So in the end "Ulmma don't seek one but one must seek them to find out the truth...But if one doesn't wonder about things how shall they feel they need to find answers to them...and in terms the truth." Anyways, i did pm the admin. about deleting this topic, now the rest is up to them.... U know what they say Che-Guevara, great minds think alike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
