History that Afwayne omitted from the books - The Original AMISOM.

[Arafaat]

3 hours ago, baala xoofto said:

You are implying that Mogadishu was any better than Berbera as a town before the Italians arrived. Which is completely not true. It was possible that Berbera had more population and better economy than any other Somali city during those times. 

In fact, according to the records, Berbera was a cosmopolitan town with diverse ethnic population from Arabia, Ethiopia and India and even had a sizeable Jewish community. In terms of Somali clan make up, it was probably one of the first multi-clan cities. For example @maakhiri1clan was a visible trading people in Berbera.

Therefore, if the critera was:

1. strategic importance, Berbera wins

2. Economy/trading importance, Berbera wins

Unlike Somalis from South Somalia which even before the 1991 were more like local native mentality with no interest in what is happening in the outside world - the Somalis from Somaliland were always interested in global affairs. Even before the British came, there were two explorers that were sent from London 1. John Hanning Speke  and 2. Richard Burton. 
 

If you read the notes and reports they sent back to London about their encounters while travelling in Somaliland, you will understand that the nomads had good idea about what was going on in the world affairs. John Speke for example noted how some of the nomads asked him about the wars in Europe. 

These reports about the locals who were awake and had global knowledge must have prompted the Empire to go the negotiations route for a win-win relationship. 

 

First of all, nobody is implying that one is better then the other, that kind of chauvinistic thinking has no place in serious political and historical  discussions. If it was soccer on the other hand or any other form of recreational sports, I would have stood beside you in the soccer stadium cheering for the home team, and believing they are better then the opponents, which was also kinda true with Hargeisa and Toghdheer teams being the best teams. 

Second, Nobody is doubting the importance and economic value Berbera, as Berbera was the main reason for Britains presence in the region. But when it comes to history, you can’t compare the behaviour of one (Italians) in a particular geography(South-Somalia, more fertile land, rivers, perfectly suited for agriculture, different economy), with a different climate (Indian ocean climate, nice and tropical, more rainfall) and context (Italy having no other colonies except for Somalia and Eritrea). In 1930, there were already more then 30.000 Italians living in Somalia, not only in Mogadishu but throughout in Marka, Kismayo, Baidoa, Jowhar and across the agricultural areas of the riverine Jubba and Shebelle valleys  wherrw they set-up large agricultural plantations.

Now how can you compare that with the behaviour of another(the British) in a region (Somaliland, with nomadic peoples, and pastoral economy), in a geography (mountainous, difficult to access in those years before you had large vehicles), with a climate (Red sea, arid and dry climate, limited rainfall) that is inhospitable for Europeans, and context where the British already have large and historical presence in the region with Egypt, Sudan, Yemen and have colonised already 25% of the earths surface where half of the earths population live in. The British presence in Somaliland had no time more then 500 British citizens in the country, mostly consisting of soldiers and administrative officials, compare that with 30.000 Italians who were running farms, hotels and business in the country. 

Based on all that I don’t think you can compare or conclude that one peoples is better then the other, or one colonial power was better then the other, as context determines the behaviour of peoples. 

 

[Arafaat]

4 hours ago, baala xoofto said:

These two photos of Mogadishu and Berbera are from 18th century.

Mogadishu:

 

Berbera

On that note, in antiquities for centuries until the 19th century, the trading centre of the world was the Indian Ocean area with a thriving trade between a chain of coastal cities, like Aden, Berbera, Calcutta, Zanzibar, Mogadishu, Mombasa. 

Long-distance trade in dhows made it a dynamic zone of interaction between peoples, cultures, and civilizations stretching from Southeast Asia to East and South East Africa and East Mediterranean in the West in prehistoric and early historic periods. Cities and states on the Indian Ocean rim focused on connecting both the sea and the land. In fact Berbera was once the site of an annual trade fair, It was the largest of its kind in the region. Traders from as far as Ethiopia and even India would congregate here in their thousands.

Guess what happened with that trade? And guess where the trade moved to? The region can restore that trade and connection again,  once more become to become the economic and trade centre of the world, if we can only start to look beyond the current trivial discourse. 

 

[Che -Guevara]

7 hours ago, Arafaat said:

You are comparing two completely different geographies that couldn’t have been more different. do you think the British would have acted the same if Somaliland had the same climate as Somalia, floating rivers, fertile lands, developed coastal cities. Belief me they would have come with more then the 500 soldiers they would have come with tens of thousands, settled there permanently and definitely abused the population just as they have in Kenya, Zimbabwe, India and every other place they deemed worth of real colonisation.

 

 

He and many northerners sincerely believe one colonizer was more superior and benevolent than others not realizing the British Empire saw the north as a stop as they sail towards to their prize possessions in India, Burma, Malaya and beyond.

They brag about being able to travel and work around the world not understanding the British Empire allowed its subjects to travel within the Empire or to any location the empire trades with.

They brag about being protectorate not knowing the British and Italians had the same treaties with MJ  Sultanates and for the same reasons, both locations are on the trade routes but not worthy investmenting since both are mostly semi-arid and largely empty.

And they think the British did the South a favor forgeting the British and their allies merely wanted to defeat the Italian fascists.

And their ignorance of Southern history is amazing but they pride themselves in their ignorance.

Pay careful attention to anytime Hargeisa leadership visits foreign and mostly former British colonies, they always say we share a long history, a history based on legacy of colonialism. They failed to understand other colonized people don't have the fond memories.

Biixi tried that when he came to America. He failed to understand the Yanks are particularly proud of getting  rid of the British. And that's knowing the American colonies were populated by people of British origin.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Thé yanks are proud to be free from the queen but they are all ethnically Irish or English or Scot’s  one people different interest same boat remember Blair and bush dream team   As for the koonfurians the Italians did have short term treaties with the sultanes of maguartania   But they betrayed their subjects and humiliated them and shipped them away  to Asmara. That’s where the sultan of Bari died.  You can’t compare it to the treaties the British signed with the Somalilanders . And yes some empires were greater then others u can’t compare the British empire to the tumaal of Europe Italy . The Italians were even humiliated by miniliq of Abyssinia in 1896 Adwoa battle where as the British besieged tewordos in the early 1800s and he ended killing him self the two cannot be compared not even close wa Adigu is barbar dhiga Slovenia and get Russian empire 

[Che -Guevara]

32 minutes ago, Xaaji Xunjuf said:

Thé yanks are proud to be free from the queen but they are all ethnically Irish or English or Scot’s  one people different interest same boat remember Blair and bush dream team   As for the koonfurians the Italians did have short term treaties with the sultanes of maguartania   But they betrayed their subjects and humiliated them and shipped them away  to Asmara. That’s where the sultan of Bari died.  You can’t compare it to the treaties the British signed with the Somalilanders . And yes some empires were greater then others u can’t compare the British empire to the tumaal of Europe Italy . The Italians were even humiliated by miniliq of Abyssinia in 1896 Adwoa battle where as the British besieged tewordos in the early 1800s and he ended killing him self the two cannot be compared not even close wa Adigu is barbar dhiga Slovenia and get Russian empire 

I think you have proven my point! I can't think of any society that admires its colonizers or thinks a colonial power is benevolent or superior.

[baala xoofto]

@Arafaat

Good points. I don't know why this thread morphed itself into a comparison one. It was supposed to be about the history that was deliberately omitted from the history books by the Afwayne regime. 

Anyway, I don't agree that Somaliland anywhere inhospitable than any other place. For example, if French made Djibouti work as a colony, anyone could have made Somaliland a colony either. Also Somaliland terrain and climate is very much the same as Eritrea where the Italians colonised just like Somalia. 

So your theory doesn't hold water from that angle. 

The only reasonable theory is that, the Somaliland clans were farsighted and were more than aware of the global affairs and what not.

For example, the last ruler of Adal State "Sharmarke Ali Saleh" of Zeila had political/security & trade relationship with the United Kingdom Administration in Aden (South Yemen). This included the exchange of Ambassador/Liaisons Officers. 

 

@Che -Guevara

The Anglo-saxons including Americans and UK, have always had better system and advocated for higher human rights ideals than many other colonialist including Dutch or France. In fact, Italy is found in the footnotes when speaking of the grand scheme of colonialism.

It is a fact that Somaliland was a not a colony, we never experienced the classic colonial draconian rule like South Somalia did.   

It is also a fact that, the first time South Somalia had any taste of freedom for a long time, it was under the British Administration. 

 

[Arafaat]

2 hours ago, baala xoofto said:

@Arafaat

Good points. I don't know why this thread morphed itself into a comparison one. It was supposed to be about the history that was deliberately omitted from the history books by the Afwayne regime. 

Anyway, I don't agree that Somaliland anywhere inhospitable than any other place. For example, if French made Djibouti work as a colony, anyone could have made Somaliland a colony either. Also Somaliland terrain and climate is very much the same as Eritrea where the Italians colonised just like Somalia. 

So your theory doesn't hold water from that angle. 

The only reasonable theory is that, the Somaliland clans were farsighted and were more than aware of the global affairs and what not.

For example, the last ruler of Adal State "Sharmarke Ali Saleh" of Zeila had political/security & trade relationship with the United Kingdom Administration in Aden (South Yemen). This included the exchange of Ambassador/

I guess this is not a debate about history, but rather an attempt to substantiate your theory of clan exceptionalism. Which is okey, and quite common as well, every Somali clan thinks they are exceptional. 

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

17 hours ago, Che -Guevara said:

I think you have proven my point! I can't think of any society that admires its colonizers or thinks a colonial power is benevolent or superior.

That’s the thing we were a protectorate so not colonised u think we are like you who have been under severe Italian subjugation this is not the case with us 

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

  

[baala xoofto]

MMA,

I read the post you posted before you deleted. I was thinking of responding to it after I finish with my Eid celebrations which I dedicated the past few days for my family and extended relatives.

Anyway, from what I remember from your post, the most important point you raised was: Between UK and Italy, you said Italy deserves to be praised and you mentioned that they build Mogadishu to become a world class city during those days. While the UK failed to develop Somaliland.

While I agree that the Italians developed Mogadishu which was a small coastal town before their arrival and made into a the Pearl of the Indian ocean. All agree with that. 

But this point you've raised is precisely what I am talking about which differentiates between you and me.  

The development of South Somalia by the Italians came with a long list of issues which are classic "colonialism". 

The lack of Development and hands-off approach by the UK on Somaliland - afforded the locals to keep their precious culture, way of life and most importantly self-help (isku-tashi) approach to life. 

I am proud that we, Somalilanders, built our own cities and developed our own governance and way of life. 

While South Somalia is structurally wired to be ruled by external forces. Which is a legacy of the colonialism.

Also, if you look at the state of economics of British Somaliland and Italian Somalia in 1960 - the Italian colony was in fact bankrupt. While Somaliland was running multi-year Budget surpluses and had 200,000 GBP as hard-currency foreign reserve in the bank. 

Mind you, the Somaliland administration was fully self-funded i.e. taxation from Berbera Port contributed to most of its income since early days.

Also in 1960, Somalia's currency was as bad as the Somalia Shillings is today. It was basically worthless. While Italian Somalia was always financially reliant on Italy.

Somaliland's currency the East African Shillings had a respectable value. In fact, this was the reason why the new Somali Republic opted to use the Shillings. They just renamed the "East African" to "Somali" but it was 100% convertible. If you had 100 East African Shillings, you will get the same 100 Somali Shillings. Whereas if you had 100 Peso Italian currency, you will only get probably 1 Somali Shilling for it. 

 

[baala xoofto]

Meticulous interview minutes with Sool clan elders clearly show how the Sool clan would praise the Brits.

They favoured an Englishman by the name of Captain Dansey. Guess who they hated and complained about? IQ leader Haji Muse Farah.

Key Demands of the Sool clan:

1. We are loyal subjects of the Crown. Willing to assume the role of informants of the administration (Snitching).

2. We request the removal of IQ  military leader Haji Musa Faarah from our regions

3. We request the replacement be a British man 

4. We are suspicious of the IQ interpreters, so we would like you rotate the interpreters so we can be confident the translation is not distorted.

5. We request arms supplies, so we can fight the Mad Mullah. 

These people were always had IQ-phobia. Hating the Brits is an after-thought. 

 

 

[Che -Guevara]

58 minutes ago, baala xoofto said:

Meticulous interview minutes with Sool clan elders clearly show how the Sool clan would praise the Brits.

They favoured an Englishman by the name of Captain Dansey. Guess who they hated and complained about? IQ leader Haji Muse Farah.

Key Demands of the Sool clan:

1. We are loyal subjects of the Crown. Willing to assume the role of informants of the administration (Snitching).

2. We request the removal of IQ  military leader Haji Musa Faarah from our regions

3. We request the replacement be a British man 

4. We are suspicious of the IQ interpreters, so we would like you rotate the interpreters so we can be confident the translation is not distorted.

5. We request arms supplies, so we can fight the Mad Mullah. 

These people were always had IQ-phobia. Hating the Brits is an after-thought. 

 

 

You may now unburden  yourself  and drop the act.

[baala xoofto]

1 hour ago, Che -Guevara said:

You may now unburden  yourself  and drop the act.

Far from an act. It is the real bitter history that Afwayne didn't want you to know about. 

The fact is, Afwayne raped the Somali history both the history of South Somalia and Somaliland. 

[galbeedi]

Don't you get tired beating a dead horse?

Why you don't you tell us all the crimes that took place after the death Marxuum Siyaad Barre? Get over it and think about the future.

[HajiGuuleed]

On 8/10/2022 at 2:32 AM, galbeedi said:

Don't you get tired beating a dead horse?

Why you don't you tell us all the crimes that took place after the death Marxuum Siyaad Barre? Get over it and think about the future.

There is no future. Somalia is a failed project doomed from the start. Time to give it up and accept both Somaliland and Puntland their U.N seats.