Freedom or Equality? choose

[Cant_Remember]

Originally posted by KritiKal-Mind: Equality under a freedomless state is slavery. And freedom without regulations and equality is anarchy and violence."

 

Kritical-Mind,

 

Would you please explain the above statement? especially the part that states "Equality under a freedomless state is slavery"? It din't only make no sense to me but I've never come across such an expression before in the discourse.

[KritiKal-Mind]

Cant_remember,

 

Not you fault. What will one become when his/her freedom is taken away?

 

It as simple as that.

[sYric-STiPHuLLa]

to add to the thread...i'm not as educated as most of you brothers and sisters out here commenting in this thread ..but i'm in the right path towards that higher based knoweledge anywayzz

 

to get to the point if i had to choose between freedom and equality...freedom being tha way kritikal mind put itfreedom without regulations and equality is anarchy and violence" And "Equality under a freedomless state is slavery.

 

i would rather be in a state of freedom and fight for what i believe-in..than have to live in a communist equality state where i don't have the freedom to live out my faith and personal practices all in the name of equality where me and my neighbor can't be different from each other religiously economically and mentally..whatever..

 

a freedom state is most favorable an equality state alone i don't think so..

 

but that's what america's having trouble with in my oppinion balancing both the freedom and equality ..they favor freedom but one can't really see the freedom in the american society. where as of now every american household is a puppet for bush's BULL*sh and ''o'reily's overly conservative attitude...(by the way o'reily was behind the pepsi commercial bann of pepsi LUDACRIS promoting the product ."o'reilly claimed ludacris was a thug and stood for everthing america didn't.and urged threat to pepsi that if they kept the rap icon with there product the "agreeing public" woulnd't buy therePRODUCT)

all in all EQUALITY A VERY DEBATABLE ISSUE..FREEDOM A VERY FAVORABLE ISSUE

[Dalni]

Freedom Vs Equality.

 

Well, this subject is much debated and discussed in differing ways. The two aspects are the basis with which one can identify "communism" from "Liberalism" in this current world. One ideology born out of the former-mighty Soviet Union was to utilise the work force, make use of the labors; making sure that subjects don't waste the precious time on things that don't benefit the society. That ideology is what killed millions of soviets under the rule of Stalin. It costed many others their basic right to be treated well by the state and freedom was no where to be found.

 

So, if those who died and those who suffered could have freedom from the state's involvement then, they would have opted out of Stalin’s plans to enrich and strengthen Russia. Those who suffered, it can be said, were equally treated like many others in the region and that equality was in use. Equality is a tool; it has good side and bad side of it. If equality is applied to all in terms of sharing wealth and opportunity then, that’s what beneficial equality is. But if equality is applied to all during times when hardship or suffering is experienced then, that itself is what non-beneficial equality becomes.

 

Now, lets talk about freedom. As mr Kritikal-mind stated, there are two types of freedom. One type of freedom is; the freedom from fear, the state. The other freedom is the freedom to do; to have the right to make choices without any influence, from anyone or institution. One can understand that lack of freedom is much felt, when one cannot express him or herself, or feel unhappy with the way he or she leads their lives.

 

Inclusion, I believe that one needs to be free from intimidations and restrictions, so that one can choose to either implement equality as a whole or not.

 

Is it freedom that comes first, and it is freedom that determines whether you can be equal or not equal.

[Cant_Remember]

kritikal mind,

 

I don't think slavery and equality go together but I take your definition to mean 'freedom as equality' and 'freedom as independence.' It's well understood that freedom without constraints is impossible or undesirable, to say the least, within a civilised society that wants to live in harmony. So I think any reasonable person would choose a society in which the actions of people are regulated but thier freedom for individuality and private sphere is not subject to state intervention as the totalitarian states (that some of you envoked)did.

[Ariadne]

Freedom for me (very hard choice). Equality I wll be content with as being seen eqaul to my fellow humans under the eyes of Allah...so there is always equality

[KritiKal-Mind]

Originally by wadani:

Is it freedom that comes first, and it is freedom that determines whether you can be equal or not equal.

Can't_remember, exactly, thats what i had in mind too. Achieve freedom first then equality. For the slave he must be free first, and then, he should seek equality before the law as a freeman. The law will have treated the slave as a property whereas if he is a freeman, the law treats him/her equal to others.

 

If a country is independent then that country is a sovereign state, but if it is not, then, it is a colony of a colonial empire or power. If a country considers itself independent but then fails to achieve recognition, then again, it is not free. It has an internal force that denies it the right to be a sovereign state, so, that country is not free and will not be treated as equal as other states. Same goes for individuals.

[Cant_Remember]

Kritikal Mind,

 

Although this bit "If a country considers itself independent but then fails to achieve recognition, then again, it is not free. It has an internal force that denies it the right to be a sovereign state, so, that country is not free and will not be treated as equal as other states" is debatable, given the particularity of each state, I must agree with you.

[Khayr]

The notion of freedom and Equality

are both falsehoods that have been drummed up by western civilization. Equality is a liberal notion that is doesn't exist. Just like the five fingers are not equal, no two people are equal. In Islam, a hierarchy exists, with the Ulama being at the top of the pyrmaid (in the muslim community), if I'm not mistaken. With respect to Freedom, u can not free your soul without putting constraints on it. To grow in being, you must first inshallah, negate your soul of the negatives (the shahawats). The western view of freedom is entrenched in hedonism and feeding your nafs. When people speak about being 'free' and feeling 'free', they are often referring to be able to do what ever they want aka Total Selfishness.

 

This is a good topic inshallah, and it took me a while to understand it. Reason being, like most people, I didn't like hearing what I heard i.e. 'What, we are not equal?'

Just think of the question-Is Hijab liberation for women? Why is it? and you might understand my explanation of freedom and equality.

Salams

[KritiKal-Mind]

Kheyr, You are quite right to say that Freedom and Equality are falsehood, in other words they are unachievable even if they are true. Liberals, don't give people total freedom, they only order the state out of people's private lives. Thats all they differ from conservativism or any other ideology.

 

You have asked a question which was, is the xijaab a liberation? Well, I believe it is liberation and at the same time equality. For a woman to be treated un-human, then that brings inequality to them. So, when a woman wears Xijaab, she is not seen as an object but as a human being with beliefs and opinion that matter. Thus, she is given full rights just as men.

[Dalni]

This topic deserves a revival.

[Curly]

Wadani, thanks for that...I'm surprised I never saw this before.

 

Its help shed light on a lot of the other nomad's thoughts on Freedom.

 

Oops and I nearly forgot to say what my answer is, well I'm some of you already know this I don't believe in freedom and equality isn't as clear cut as it's thought to be.

But I would rather choose equality over something that's so unattainable