Freedom or Equality? choose

[nuune]

kritikal-mind, now i have no problem since we are in the same category,but if you chose freedom there is no need to talk about equality!!

[Paragon]

Muraad sxb. You are absolutely true to favour EQUALITY over FREEDOM, but what if the EQUALITY you have is an EQUALITY in misery and pain? Lets say there is an EQUALITY but that equality means that you must be equal with everyone who is suffering under a colony. So, by choosing EQUALITY, you are choosing to be of equal right with everyone about everything. For example, if you are told that you will be treated EQUALLY like everyone else, like a colonial subject. Would you then want EQUALITY of that sort?

 

I know EQUALITY is as important as FREEDOM but atleast if i have freedom then I have the freedom to either implement EQUALITY or INEQUALITY.

[SCORPION_SISTA]

i got back to this topic and this is what i c MEN :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

IT SEEMS MURAAD AND I ARE THE ONLY ONES WHOM AGREE HERE TOGETHER, NOW I GUESS SINCE EVERYONE ELSE WROTE IN DETAIL WHY THEY CHOICE ONE OF EACH CHOICES IT IS ONLY FAIR AND EQUAL RITE OF MINE TO DO THE SAME. ALTHOUGH I BELIEVE THAT BOTH THOSE OPTIONS ARE INSEPERABLE IF IT BECAME NECESSARY TO MAKE CHOICE I WOULD CHOOSE EQUALITY. MOST OF U USED THE ARGUMENT THAT SLAVES CHOICE FREEDOM THAN EQUALITY AND I BELIEVE THEY WERE NEAR SIGHTED AND SO ARE IT SEEMS THE OTHER GUYS HERE TO NO OFFENSE OF COURSE. BUT LOOK LATER NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY WERE FREE IN THIS COUNTRY THEY WANTED EQUALITY WHY? BECAUSE FOR SOMEONE TO SAY U FREE AND FOR HIM TO TREAT U LIKE HIS EQUAL ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS AND FREEDOM IS BUT A WORD AND ONCE SPOKEN HAS NO MORE EFFECT THAN THAT. TO DIE AS A FREE MAN IS NOT BETTER TO DIE LIKE A DIGNIFED HUMAN BEING, AND WITHOUT EQUALITY WHERE SOMEONE IS NOT TREATING U LIKE A DOG OR LESS THAN HUMAN BEING IS WORTH MORE THAN "HE DIE A FREE MAN" DOESN'T FLY WITH ME. IF SOMEONE CONSIDERS U TO BE EQUAL TO THEM WOULDN'T THAT THEREFORE LEAD THEM TO GIVE U THE SAME FREEDOMS THAT THEY HAVE FOR THEMSELVES TO YA AND NOT EVEN QUESTION IT, WHERE AS WE HAVE SEEN WITH AMERICAN SLAVERY THAT WAS NOT THE CASE TO BE FREE MAN WASN'T THE SAME AS EQUAL MAN IN THE EYES OF ANYONE. I GUESS THAT'S MY OTHER 1 1/2 CENTS ON THI ISSUE. PEACE

[KritiKal-Mind]

Freedom

 

Freedom- Is there man born that lusts not after liberty?

 

Freedom- Are there anywhere souls who crave not to be free?

 

Those who would not look up to the sky and to God vow-

 

One has the right to live one's life the way one chooses how?

 

Freedom- Man's noblest dream beset with well intent restraints...

 

Freedom-Is often lost midst " for your own good" refrains...

 

My freedom taken from me in the name of so called " moral right"

 

But to what end am I enslaved for someone else's fight?

 

 

 

Liberty "adjusted"- for whatever moral cause, and though they be..

 

If I have no right to choose, I have not liberty-

 

If I so choose the path to hell, I alone must so decide....

 

Else that we call our "liberty" mocks all those who ever died....

 

For Freedom.

 

 

 

Freedom- Our natural right and yet so new a concept to our human minds!

 

Freedom-Each owns oneself- so simple an idea- so basic- it defines

 

All human interaction in that briefest, simple thought-

 

"To live one's life as each one decides the way one ought"

 

 

 

Freedom- It doesn't give the right to interfere by force or fraud-

 

Freedom- It is not reserved for those who say they're serving God!

 

Freedom.......The very word, and all the word implies

 

Does not assume the one that's free is good or pure or wise!

 

 

 

Liberty is for the brave and strong, the weak and coward too,

 

And rich and poor alike, the fainthearted and the true-

 

All can huddle underneath the banner bought and paid for by our blood

 

All are free to make a choice to live, be it bad or be it good-

 

It's freedom.

 

 

 

© Norma Jean Almodovar- April, 1986

[Haashim]

the conclusion of this thread:

 

FREEDOM = M E A N S

 

EQUALITY= G O A L

 

You can choose freedom to reach the goal (equality), but the freedom isn't the end of the road. It's the begining of long journey to an absolute equality.

 

if u think other way round or have any other conclusion don't hesitate to send it.

 

.........................

 

LACNADI HA KU DHACDO DAALIMIINTA IYO KUWA U GARGAARABA, LAAKIIN MAXAYNU NIRAAHNAA KUWA DULMIGA KA AAMUSAN IYO KUWA MARKA XERADOODA LA GALO UUN QAYLIYA.

[Blessed]

I would rather be free then an equal. Equality is never clear cut. As demonstrated by Orwel in his Animal farm, humans have this tendency to blieve in euality in its simplets form ... but there are always groups of people who feel that they are more equal then others.

 

The current world affairs is an example of this.

 

Regardless of how they much talk equality, advocate equality, dream equality, Human kind don't want equality in it's truest essence. And if you really think about it, can we really be equal? Considering our differences can the young and the old have the same consideration, can retards demand as much respect as scholars? will the Queen ever be expected to wait in line with the common public? You can give black people equal rights.. but will America ever get a Black president? Is a believer equal to a religious leader?

 

As for freedom, Allah has bestowed free will to us all... hence, the trial and tribulation of this world.

 

Just my opnion....

[Haashim]

Assalaamu calaykum, thanx sis Ameenah, equality does'nt mean equal wealth, height, beauty etc. on the contrary, that's impossible ALLAH (s.w.t) told us in the QURAN that he (ALLAH) makes this difference to TEST us, but what we want is EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW and this is achievable matter. because some countrise achieved in some extent but not fully while in first ISLAM period were fully achieved.

 

This is one example: During ALI IBN ABI TALIB (R.A) khilaafah a jewish man has stolen ALI BIN ABI TALIB'S shield and AMIIRUL MU'MINIIN (ALI IBN ABI TALIB) (R.A) saw this man wearing his shield he didn't send his special secret forces to punish him, because he (R.A) hadn't special secret forces eventhough he was a ruler of the much of that time known-world he simply went to the judge and told the story (president going to the judge as anyone else telling his case). the judge ordered to bring this man to the court ALI IBN ABI TALIB (R.A) was the victim and the jewish man (very minority ethnic) was accused stealing AMIIRAL MU'MINIIN'S shield, but they stand before the judge equally, each of them producing the evidence of his claims. the judge asked AMIIRAL MUNMINUUN eyewitness that this is his shield he couldn't get other than his son, the judge told AMIIRALA MUU'MINUUN that he have no acceptable eyewitness because his son cann't be his eyewitness, he asked if he has any other 2 eyewitness and AMIIRAL MU'MINUUN argued that nobody else could recognise the shield because it was at home, finally the judge decided not to take this shieLd from the jewish because there were no 2 eyewitness from the claimer (AMIIRUL MUU'MINUUN), and the case has ended, but something else happened, when the jewish man saw that the AMIIRUL MUUMINUUN couldn't take his shield from him he witnessed that LAA ILAAHA ILA LAALAH WA ANNA MUXAMADUN RASSULULAAH and he told the judge that the shield is for AMIIRUL MUUMINIIN.

 

This is the full equality which many of us would say this is a dream, this is impossible etc. and i think that's why most of us asking FREEDOM as the freedom is our GOAL and because we associated with many oppressions, so we want first to be free and then look another step.

 

.......................

 

lacnadi ha ku dhacdo daalimiinta iyo kuwa u gargaaaraba, laakiin bal ka warrama kuwa ka aamusan iyo kuwa marka xeradooda la galo uun qayliya.

[Dalni]

There were many battles that took place for the sake of freedom but not for the sake of equality. Only demonstrating can easily achieve the gaining of equality, but freedom is far much harder to achieve. Colonisation was replaced by freedom, and after freedom was fully gained then equality came into existance. Equality needs a foundation whereby it can root itself, and that foundation is freedom, especially "freedom from fear". When South-Africa was under the aparthied government, there was discrimination, for example: different toilets for coloured and different neighbourhoods or roads. But when freedom came, the government implimented equality for both whites and blacks. Therefore, it is quite understandable that equality can be present wherever freedom prevails. On the other hand it is clear that equality will no exist wherever there is no freedom.

[Macalin]

Q> can u have equality b4 freedom?

 

I mean you gotta be free b4 u can be

[Paragon]

Freedom = Xornimo

 

Equality = Wada sinaansho.

 

So, you can't have 'wada sinaansho' before 'Xornimo'. Simple as that.

[Sophist]

Salamu Alaiakum

 

In my humble opinion, this is by far one of the most interesting topics posed on the Somaliaonline.

 

Before we swim through the vast waters of which this topic lies beneath, some boats are needed to be prepared.

 

Freedom: The condition of being free of restraints. This means that one is free from any limitation.

 

Equality: The condition or quality of being equivalent; agreement in quantity or degree as compared; likeness in bulk, value, rank, properties, etc.; as, the equality of two bodies in length or thickness; an equality of rights.

 

Now we have defined the two key words. Let us explore the meanings.

 

Freedom, according to the above given definition is the illusion of the Westernized mind. Whether you are a man of religion or you are a citizen of state, the attainment of such power is fatefully not within reach. As a Muslim, freedom with the reference of the above definition is undoubtedly heresy in Islam. The word Muslim means submission, and this directly contradicts with obsolete freedom.

 

In the Western World there is no such thing as freedom. We read such ideologies by the likes of Max Weber, Rawls (The theory of Justice, a jolly good book in Moral political Philosophy) but in impractical world is just a Utopian ideology entertained by a minute group of Academics in Ivy and Oxbridge Universities.

 

Equality, I can believe I am going to give my opinion about this one. Through out the annals of History, men were never equal. Also (according to the above definition) this contradicts wholly with Islam and Rationality. People have always been different. The common man in who lived in Cambridge at the time of Newton was not equal to that great Physicist. This is against any Human characteristics.

 

But, If you were referring to having same right politically as the next Rich man in Islamic State then that is something comprehended.

 

Now let us look as your mispresentation of what was the Somali government under Siyad.

 

“There may not be any country in the world that lives under anarchy except Somalia. In Somalia's case, one can claim that there is an existence of total freedom without any sort of equality in place. Somalia practiced "scientific-socialism" of Karl Marx during the years of Siad Bare's dictatorship. The concept of scientific-socialism brought about restrictions upon personal, economical and political freedoms. All citizens were to be treated equally in regard to Karl Max's ideology, but equality in that sense was incompatible with the situation the country was in.”

 

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that currently in Somalia there is freedom? Freedom, according to the given definition does not certainly exist in Somalia. What exist in Somalia a feudal despotism where War Barons roam around the country and kill whoever come against their way!. That is not freedom. And equality goes out of the window.

 

Under Siyad, the Somali government of the time did not excercised Marx’s ideology of eqaility. His ideology has never been implemented even in Russia where Communism where propogated. This is a common mistake that many Political Science students make. Kritical Mind, have you personally Das Kapital or Communist Manifesto? I suspect the answer would be no. I make such an assumption because you have made that common error many before you committed with oblivion. Marx ideology had been misunderstood because of the complexity of his writings; just like Hegel and Kant is difficult to read- He was influenced by Hegel.

 

I am not Marxist, but I know little about Karl Marx and Frederic Engels’s works to say that Somalia and even Russia had never been fully embraced the Marxist ideology.

 

In Conclusion, Either can be attained fully. Both have their limitations. I like to think that I am practicable person, and as such I certainly would not flirt with an ideology that will ever remain to be ideology.

 

Sophist

[jaaluut]

very scholarly discusion.

sophist, you are intriguing bro.

people let the ideas roll, defently a healthy debate , unhindered by obstacles.

freedom is the preruquisite to equality.

and the idea of "philosophy of the median" should be practiced . meaning enough freedom to live with dignity, and enough equality under the law to earn a living. excess of either leads us astray.

[KritiKal-Mind]

“There may not be any country in the world that lives under anarchy except Somalia. In Somalia's case, one can claim that there is an existence of total freedom without any sort of equality in place. Somalia practiced "scientific-socialism" of Karl Marx during the years of Siad Bare's dictatorship. The concept of scientific-socialism brought about restrictions upon personal, economical and political freedoms. All citizens were to be treated equally in regard to Karl Max's ideology, but equality in that sense was incompatible with the situation the country was in.”

 

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that currently in Somalia there is freedom? Freedom, according to the given definition does not certainly exist in Somalia. What exist in Somalia a feudal despotism where War Barons roam around the country and kill whoever come against their way!. That is not freedom. And equality goes out of the window.

 

Under Siyad, the Somali government of the time did not excercised Marx’s ideology of eqaility. His ideology has never been implemented even in Russia where Communism where propogated. This is a common mistake that many Political Science students make. Kritical Mind, have you personally Das Kapital or Communist Manifesto? I suspect the answer would be no. I make such an assumption because you have made that common error many before you committed with oblivion. Marx ideology had been misunderstood because of the complexity of his writings; just like Hegel and Kant is difficult to read- He was influenced by Hegel.

 

I am not Marxist, but I know little about Karl Marx and Frederic Engels’s works to say that Somalia and even Russia had never been fully embraced the Marxist ideology.

Well, what have we here! Sophist, thanks for your contribution.

 

Secondly, where did you get the idea that Siad Barre's regime didn't exercise Scientific Socialism in Somalia? You seem to have researched on Karl Marx with whom i'd rather say you admire his ideology, but then, you have little knowledge of Barre's Scentific Socialism practice.

 

As far as Siad Barre is concerned, allow me to use a quotation from pieces of the history of Somalia

 

"Somalia's adherence to socialism became official on the first anniversary of the military coup when Siad Barre proclaimed that Somalia was a socialist state, despite the fact that the country had no history of class conflict in the Marxist sense. For purposes of Marxist analysis, therefore, tribalism was equated with class in a society struggling to liberate itself from distinctions imposed by lineage group affiliation. At the time, Siad Barre explained that the official ideology consisted of three elements: his own conception of community development based on the principle of self-reliance, a form of socialism based on Marxist principles, and Islam. These were subsumed under "scientific socialism," although such a definition was at variance with the Soviet and Chinese models to which reference was frequently made.

 

The theoretical underpinning of the state ideology combined aspects of the Quran with the influences of Marx, Lenin, Mao, and Mussolini, but Siad Barre was pragmatic in its application. "Socialism is not a religion," he explained; "It is a political principle" to organize government and manage production. Somalia's alignment with communist states, coupled with its proclaimed adherence to scientific socialism, led to frequent accusations that the country had become a Soviet satellite. For all the rhetoric extolling scientific socialism, however, genuine Marxist sympathies were not deep-rooted in Somalia. But the ideology was acknowledged--partly in view of the country's economic and military dependence on the Soviet Union--as the most convenient peg on which to hang a revolution introduced through a military coup that had supplanted a Western-oriented parliamentary democracy.

 

More important than Marxist ideology to the popular acceptance of the revolutionary regime in the early 1970s were the personal power of Siad Barre and the image he projected. Styled the "Victorious Leader" (Guulwaadde), Siad Barre fostered the growth of a personality cult. Portraits of him in the company of Marx and Lenin festooned the streets on public occasions. The epigrams, exhortations, and advice of the paternalistic leader who had synthesized Marx with Islam and had found a uniquely Somali path to socialist revolution were widely distributed in Siad Barre's little blue-and-white book. Despite the revolutionary regime's intention to stamp out the clan politics, the government was commonly referred to by the code name MOD. This acronym stood for Mareehaan (Siad Barre's clan), Ogaden (the clan of Siad Barre's mother), and Dulbahante (the clan of Siad Barre son-in-law Colonel Ahmad Sulaymaan Abdullah, who headed the NSS). These were the three clans whose members formed the government's inner circle. In 1975, for example, ten of the twenty members of the SRC were from the Daarood clan-family, of which these three clans were a part; the Digil and Rahanwayn, the sedentary interriverine clan-families, were totally unrepresented.

 

" (Source : Somalinet's virtual library,

http://somalinet.com/library/somalia/?so=0035

)

Sophist, what do you know of common errors done by first year politics students?

[KritiKal-Mind]

I suggest it will of much importance if you frequently visit Somalinet's forum. Thats the only useful thing in Somalinet.com

 

Somalinet Virtual Library

[Sophist]

And you think I will oblige? Thanks for the welcome but I am not in the mood of a teeth bloody show down.