Can virtue be taught or mastered?

[Jamster]

What is virtue, Can it be taught or mastered? or is it a divine?

[Thunder]

The dictionary defines "virtue" as -1 a : conformity to a standard of right : MORALITY b : a particular moral excellence

 

ofcourse it is not innate. Usually parents/society teaches these standards.

Major source of these standards is religion!

[Bachelor]

After long and brooding. I have to say it can be taught. Ex. The prophet teach his companion a great deal of Virtue.

[Jamster]

Salamu Alaikum,

 

Thunder; thank you very much indeed for attempting to answer this gruelling question (at least it seems arduous to me). Your answer looks the issue as its entirety, which makes the whole thing look simple (it not my goal to make it complex, but the nature of the issue is somewhat muddled). Perhaps it is good idea to look at the concept of "Fidra" in Islam. Does that make a sense to you?

 

Teaching is learning something anew. One goes to University, school or any other academic institution to learn something he/she does not know about before, without being pedantic that is the primary reason.

 

My standpoint is that I know nothing, and I hope to learn this issue by discussing with my fellow learned forum users.

 

Farah

[Jamster]

Bachelor, thanks for the answer.

 

The Companions of the prophet were cultivated (those from farming background would know cultivation takes place when there is a seed or seeds). Here the definition I gave to teaching does not fit. If one say that the Companions were indeed seedless and prophet came to them and educated them; then the "Fidra" concept is not considered. If one is aware of the Fidra, then the idea of teaching would become a futile- since teaching is gives birth to learning something you don’t know.

 

Please, read the issue of Fidra and ponder about it.

 

Thanks again for your time bechelor.

 

Farah

[QUANTUM LEAP]

Farah - I thought this article illustrated whether virtue can be taught or not. I would say it can be taught and it has its consequences too.

 

Please read the following I think it might interest you. Just another perspective.

 

Can Virtue be taught?

[Paragon]

Virtue. Anyone who does good things becomes virtueous. So, by teaching people to act good can translate as teaching them Virtue. Many argue Virtue to be a divine thing but i think it can be taught.

[Rahima]

Can virtue be taught or mastered? Or is it divine?

 

Virtue: Moral excellence.

 

I started off by asking myself are there different forms of virtue? Of course i came to the conclusion YES! (Patience is a virtue, truthfulness is a virtue), but then are there different levels of that particular virtue? Can one have some or a little bit of virtue? By using the above definition of virtue, i came to the conclusion that a particular virtue (eg. patience) does not have different levels for the reason that excellence is one level, it is the top, the peak, the best of the best and so is one level.

 

I then asked myself is virtue divine/ innate? NO! was my conclusion for the reason that once again going back to our definition of virtue (moral excellence), there is no deficiency in a person with that virtue in regards to that virtue (if that makes sense), for "excellence" means to be perfect and since perfection is only with Allah this point that virtue is divine is incorrect and with it throws out the point of virtue been mastered for once again there is a claim of perfection. However, yes we are all born with some of that particular characteristic (some patience or a lot of patience), but since it has not reached the stage of "moral excellence" (we can never reach it), then it is not a virtue. We do not have the virtue of patience. We do not (by the above definition) have virtue (in all its types).

 

I then went on to think of the possibility of virtue been taught. But of course found faults in that. So yes more patience can be taught, but never to the level of it been a virtue, for virtue as defined above is to claim perfection and we are not perfect. The prophet s.a.w taught for example his companions to have more patience, but that doesn’t mean they were patient at all times (even being patient 99.99% of the time doesn’t make one reach virtue), they were not perfect.

 

So all in all i found my problem was the issue of the definition "moral excellence" in particular the excellence part contradicts the Islamic principle of only Allah been perfect. We all have defaults. Maybe if it had another definition i could make up my mind

[Jamster]

Salams Rahiima,

 

Very intresting response, but as usual I have difficulties not only agreeing with you but following your logic- reasoning pattern.

 

I shall post my antidose soon insha allah, i have very little time for me to serve the net. Insha allah next time you will read my refutation- if I can utilise such word.

 

Thanks again for your contribution.

 

Farah

[Rahima]

Asalaamu Calaykum Wr Wb Farah,

 

No suprise there brother, I didn't expect for it to make any sense to anyone other than myself

 

However, if we define virtue as general goodness, then i believe it is a combination of the two, it is a devine attribute and is taught also.

 

Like the Fitrah we are all born with, the belief of Allah, we are all born with virtue, but this virtue is affected by our environment. Therefore, depending on our environment, we can continue and improve on this innate virtue (such as our continual belief in Allah, although our parents could of have made us into christians or jews by their teachings)or loose it.

[Libaax-Sankataabte]

Sir Farah, good question.

 

In my opinion, virtue is an innate quality which may or may not need an activation at an early age in the private arena of domestic life.

[Liqaye]

Farah very intreasting talking point.

 

If we are to take virtue to mean as sister rahima has pointed out to be such concepts as patience and such like then perhaps humanity has the innate ability to exercise virtue.

But this argument founders at the beggining, in its definition of what virtue is, for instance if patience is considerd an abomination in the situation in which the individual is born into then indeed he would be despicable instead of being virtuos in the eyes of his community.

 

Okay maybe in my attempt to illustrate my point i have denigrated a universal virtue such as patience but i will render another example.

 

Imagine if you please the Nazi's triumphing in the 2 world war.

And their construction according to their sociaetal mores a new utopia upon the earth.

In such a society were for instance a black man is considerd to be lower than a frog, were it is considerd legitimate and right to consider blacks less than human.

Would a dissenting voice, an idividual who disagree's and finds these things to be wrong, can such an idividual be considerd to possess virtue when all he is considerd to be by his society is a fool, and a dangerous fool at that.

When the definition of virtue held by his community is diametrically opposed to his own.

?

 

This is a continuation of one of the longest running philosophical arguments in history.

Locke considerd a new born baby to be a TABULA RASA meaning a blank slate which the society the infant lives in would mould according to what they consider the mores of the society.

Kant and Naom chomsky on the other hand considerd infants and all of humanity to have innate qualities that would by pass any societal programming, an example Naom Chomsky used was the acquiring of speech by infants, his argument being that imitation of the parents speech is not enough to acquire speech.

He argued that we all have an innate abilty for grammer and composition.

All good points but i think the reality is those that define what virtue is will also define if it is learned or divine.

 

If i was a run of the mill westerner billa ilah i would argue these points out shrilly and join my voice to the cancophony of philosophers who have dedicated their pitifull live's to such things.

 

But alhamdullilah

my virte is in the holy quran.

[Jamster]

Salaam Alaikum

 

Uuh this I long forgot about its existence, to surface now that I have even become more philosophical (using the word here generically); it is with delight I should first attempt to define what virtue is—perhaps most of the respondees have approached the issue in relative terms. The word may be but the meaning isn’t—though one can deduce another question from my mere statement and say is language a subjective entity; are meanings are subjective or otherwise? For example the meaning of God, is that subjective or it has an objective meaning to it? No doubt the fervent mind would undoubtedly first hurry it with the answer that is meanings being relative, but just like any metaphysical issue when the spanner it thrown in, the whole thing becomes murky- now let me not digress from the point at hand. Now let us consider what we mean by vurtue.

 

Virtue as a thing is agent-centered entity. This means it is the foundation of good morals. What is then good morality? How do we define what is moral and what isn’t? this pseudo-theological and philosohical questions are not going to be considered at length here simply it would take a day to decioher all the issues involved. But I shall attend briefly to their response.

 

Moral= goodness. This does not help. What is good? Is goodness defined by humanbeings (this means it is subjective, since humanbeings are not of the same frame of a mind) or it is independent from human experience? The preference between these two understandings makes all the difference in the way we see ourselves as humanbeings. It gauges the authority of religion, and it determines the behaviour of moral reasoning. The seeds of goodns, morality and virtue are words that jump together in every sphere of human experience. As none empericist (Lock, Hume and most earlier English Philophers were Empericist Philosophers) I believe that it would be folly to assume that all we know, respect or even worship should derived from our human experience—experience is used loosly in this context. The seed of good moral is there within us all as we come out of our mothers womps with our eyes closed together.

 

Now, have broadly defined what I meant by morality (or perhaps I haven’t adequately done so) let us move it to the rest of the issue?

 

Can then fortitude, bravery, kindness to others, courage, temperance, justice, prudence, and also truthfullness be taught? Can it be developed and cultivated?

 

The answer to this is undoubtedly yes. Human’s have relatively speaking a free choice in life, we are not shackled to some iron robs contarary what the popular believe is. In other words I am not fatalist. As the popular Hadith Says, Kulu Mawluudun Yuuladu Calal Fidrah, Fa abawaahu Yuhawidaani, aw Yunasiraani or Yusalimaai (the last addition is narrated in the Sunan, was not aware of it, but Sheekh Maxamuud Shibli of Holland has indeed brought my attention to it). This means moral goodness is there, but it can either be cultivated to goodness or otherwise

 

 

Hay Ibnu Yaqdan, this book is good. It is about a young boy was brought up by Gazzalle in an Island. He never had a human contact when he was growing up, and when he eventually had his first contact to a human; he stated that there was a higher being. I read this book few years back, it is written by Ibnu Tufail. Great book, you can read the summary of the story on here: http://www.islamonline.net/English/ArtCulture/2001/04/article3.shtml

 

This story illustrates that moral goodness is innately in us all. But One can become corupted or enlightened as the above Hadith says.

 

Hey, I really, have to do some work now, I hope this was enough for the time being.

 

Let the ideas roll.

 

Respectively,

 

Farah

[Khayr]

Salaamz,

If I am not mistaken there

is a saying "ONLY THE VIRTUES CAN BE WISE" (I am not sure if it is a hadith or saying from the Ulama)

meaning that only people that possess virtue

and who live such lives that reflect this

are WISE.

 

In Islam, Goodness is not seperated from

the DIVINE. Good----GOD!

To be Good means to be Better, to near Perfection

and what is Perfection but the DIVINE-ALLAH!

 

Virtue in islam can be taught through

accumulating the various sunans

and making them in one's life.

No matter how little it is, whatever aspect of the Sunnah that one practices with consistancy,

will be a source and a vehicle for Barakah (Divine Grace).

Allah loves a Mumin that does an act consistantly,

no matter how little it is. (provided its Halal!)

Why even in engaging in sex with one's spouse

is a way to grow to Allah and their is Barakah in it.

The rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) was once asked by the sahaba how a person can get barakah

by cohabiting/having sex with his wife and the analogy that was made was that if there

is Dhanby in doing something that is Haram,

so to, is there Barakah, in doing something

that is Halal.

 

So what exactly is the definition of Virtue

in Islam.

I would say that its VIRTUE=TAQWA=Fear of Allah or/and Consciousness of Allah

 

These western philosphers were trying to define

Virtue and other attributes through

denying Revelation and what is self-evident-ALLAH!

 

 

Fi Amanallah

[Dalni]

Lets talk about Virtue again please. And this time, Farah, please indicate what type of virtue you ask whether it can be tought or mastered. Intellectual Virtue based on experiance and instruction or Moral Virtue based on the habitation of good practices.