Islam in Women

[sheherazade]

I don't want to see a perfect world. Dull, dull, dull. Though I would like to see a more honest one; one that looks at itself and says, 'Ugly SOB aren't I?' When I hear or read for the umpteenth time about all the rights a woman has in Islam I switch off. It's a luxury to have knowledge but to hear it used as a self-lauding mechanism when the reality is different makes me cringe. I already know the theory and I feel the theory knows me. I also know that the theory is meant to be in practice hence, 'A way of life'. Islam, a living breathing entity. Islam isn't entirely practised as it should either by individuals (we are imperfect) or governments (man-made). But when it comes to basic rights that afford humans dignity and fairness and when those rights are taken away or never given, I want perfect honesty. I'm unconcerned mainly about what outsiders think; that doesn't bother me as much as what the insiders are up to:

 

It's the culture. Aha. How many times have you said that? Heard it? It's our catch phrase isn't it? But as culture isn't going away and Islam certainly isn't, doesn't that mean the situation could go on and on and on.. This is also what you hear from speakers, Islamic organisations etc when they are questioned about say the situation in Afghanistan under the Taliban. This has nothing to do with Islam they Arab shrug. Change the record will you? Why so much energy into talking to the media about the ideals when we can't put it into practise or admit it to ourselves?

 

Strange how in so many cultures distances apart women have their private parts scooped out, their rapes turned into zina and their lives taken in a family member's honour. Funny that. None of it to do with Islam (I do it too!) and yet carried out in the name of Islam(so as not to be questioned). So who's preaching this kind of Islam? No one. Really? Who's preaching against it? Everyone. Really? Do the women know this? Err. Wait, let me ask it like this: are they allowed an education so they may read and know what their rights are? Allowed into the mosques so they may hear their Imams speak out against the culture(or not)? Encouraged to think, form an opinion and share it? Really? Ahh, I know who you must mean....

 

Those F-ist women. Yeah, them, women talking of or for women are all labelled F-ists. It doesn't matter that what some say may be in line with the Prophet's(saw) teachings(we'll ignore that) but how dare they speak up and shame us, betray us? There's a preoccupation with shame; that Somali word 'Ceeb'. How often you hear that as a girl; more often than if you were a a boy I wager you. Boys are naughty; girls bring ceeb. Look what the girl dragged in: a great big chunk of ceeb. Whatever will we do now? What the F does it mean, ceeb? Why is everything unpalatable ceeb especially where women are concerned? Are women unpalatable? And if a woman has such an impact (powerful womanhood); reflects so greatly on a family(what honour), a society(she's the backbone), a faith why isn't she revered? Instead of hidden away, quietened and dehumanised? Patriarchal societies will reflect the strengths and weaknesses of man, the male and man the male likes to compete but not always sportsmanly. So if he can't beat them, he'll beat them?

 

Flash back: I'm having dinner with a married couple. She and I are talking when I mention that I keep reading that many more women are embracing Islam than men. She is nodding in agreement when hubby dearest interrupts with indignation. The subject came up because she herself is a convert. Hubby shakes his head in disagreement and states that it is the convert males who will be carrying out da'wah and not the women and that the fewer men would have a greater impact (on what I don't know) than the women. Extraordinary I thought that the mere mention of a statistic(is it even a fact?) that favoured women(if one can even look upon it as such) should bring about in this man the need to almost pooh-pooh the notion that more women were seemingly making a good decision. I had no idea we were competing in spirituality but may be we are. Are women leaving it to the men to help and spread a message when all along they're in competition with us? Can they relate, put their egos aside long enough? And if they're not in competition, why exactly do our societies subjugate women? Is man the individual who may want a woman granted her rights giving in to society's wishes; taking the path of least resistance? Does he just not have the balls to resist and be seen to resist? Is he as clueless as the women are? And are the women in these societies getting a perverse pleasure out of victimhood, out of martyrdom? Are we as guilty as one another, both losers? Each side sniggering at the others' shortcomings? All on a decaying road to hell?

 

I dropped the subject only to continue it days later with the quivering one's wife. I lost count of the number of people who had turned to Islam as a result of her. Men and women. One man's live-in girlfriend left him after discovering Islam through my dinner hostess. This man was so shocked at his girlfriend's departure(and the end of a relationship several years' worth) that he set about finding out what could have taken his woman away from him(the competition). He found Islam and it found him. They married, had children and lived as best they could. It was obvious why she'd had such an impact. She had a love for Islam and she shared it and debated when necessary.

 

These women converting to Islam are in the West where information is readily available and the cultures encouraging of soul-searching. Are convert women who have a genuine passion for Islam and a deep displeasure of our societies' ills better at getting the message across and telling it like it is? No emotional baggage(in the name of Islam), no ceeb(in the name of Islam), no unchannelled anger(in the name of Islam). Do we leave it to the newbies or do the rest of us women in the West have a say too?

 

I look at some young Muslim girls in the West, talk with them and they're angry!! Responsibility for family, education, work, the smooth running of households are dropped on their shoulders but decision-making, opinion-having are frowned upon. Carry the weight but don't say ouch or how or utter the deadly why. Why is the domain of the Y-chromosomed one. Don't ask what Abdi is doing, Abdi is a man. Nurture, it's nature, Xaliimo. Now shut the F up.

 

Still, those of us in the west do mainly have it better than those elsewhere. But have we women been turned into insular beings whose vision does not go beyond our immediate surrounds and troubles? If we're the empathic beings that we're supposed to be, the good communicators that we're meant to be; why aren't we using what comes best to us for those whom what's worst comes? Does the passion not burn hot enough or are our roles limited to serving family and neglecting the society? Just what kind of Islam is in women?

[-Serenity-]

Hello Sheh,,

 

I’ve been echoing your sentiments for years. I hear about how Islam granted women this and that, but I don’t see it. It’s a wonder how ‘this’ Islam that is supposed to promote dignity and human rights is seen today in the eyes of every other religion to be repressive. Islam is not more repressive than Christianity or Judaism and yet Muslim women today enjoy less freedom and fewer rights than women in those religions. This begs the question - WHY? The answer is simple - there are those who have a vested interest in blocking women’s rights in Muslim societies. HOW do they do this? - by citing examples and sources from the past and betting on our ignorance.

 

p.s. This is an interesting subject and I'A, everyday, I will try and add a new dimension to why this dilemma exists. Hope you will keep up Sheh.

[xiinfaniin]

What an honest self-critique this is! While affirming the goodness of your faith you managed, good sister, to raise very propping questions as to why the reality of many Muslims (Muslim women in this case) does not reflect the very values they brag?

 

Though I am ill equipped to propose practical remedy to this seemingly persistent problem, your sentiment does, however, resonate with me. I do indeed share your frustration, sister.

 

Will we ever see in a world where Muslim woman takes advantage of all the privileges by which her God granted? Why not? What are the obstacles? Who is preventing her to grow with in the bounds of her faith? Is it ignorance? Or are there other forces that’re at work here?

[sheherazade]

^ I'm interested in reading the answers to your own questions.. What do you think the obstacles are etc?

 

7, u can bet on it.

[-Lily-]

It's lack of education & lack of will as far as I can see. I remember one Islamic lecture I attended whilst at uni, and the speaker, a convert black professor, stated that half of the spirit of Islam is dead, because its women are dead.

 

I think cultural barriers will be more difficult to break. Muslims value the rules of their culture even more so than religion. Men have their identity defined against what a 'woman' should be, and thus if her role were to change it would throw his into a limbo. I think women in Islam will not go forward unless they experience a kind of 'sufferage' within the bounds of Islam to bring their religion alive.

[NGONGE]

Heh. A great thread yet wasted on most of the readers. You seem to have turned the usual topic upside down there!

 

It is mostly culture. It is ignorance. It is outside influences. But, most of all, it is selfishness of women and men. Islam, as many of the more generous respondents in here would tell you, is perfect. It is the people that are not (this is a complete thesis of a reply, alas, you’ll have to work it out on your own).

 

 

The overwhelming majority of Muslims deal with such questions with caution and care. These questions you’re asking are not everyday questions for a Muslim. Only deviant people question Islam (a mixture of denial and reading comprehension here). Islam has given women the highest of positions and shown them great respect, your detractors would say.

 

Your everyday respondent will play it safe and try to hoodwink you with tales of great Muslim women, verses of the Quran and maybe a hadeeth or two. None of which are wrong of course; however, none deal with your questions either. Still, there is a tiny possibility that you might be impressed with the stories and deeds of these great women (and so you should) and forget the reason you started these questions in the first place.

 

To return to your topic, it seems that you’ve covered a multitude of issues and I’m not sure which is the most important here. I shall, for the time being (and until you say otherwise) sidestep the possible serious discussion about Muslim converts and concentrate (for the most part) on Muslim born.

 

Is it possible that women can grow out of their own selfishness and tackle such obstacles head on? Is it possible that men (many hiding behind the cloak of faith without practising it) will loosen the reigns and allow the women to break free?

 

I don’t think it is possible. I believe that all sides are happy in the safe position they occupy now. The men have the women where they want them and the women, in spite of the irregular protests, seem to be content in their subordinate position. The few that are not, break out and either go too far (e.g. Ayaan Hrisi, etc) or end up frustrated and hover in no man’s land.

 

As you stated above, Islam is a way of life. However, for many Muslims, assumption is a way of life. You can go blue in the face with questions, queries and challenges to the current positions. You will either get lazy, unsubstantiated and feeble replies or you'll get slapped down with the ‘CEEB, CEEB, CEEB’ cry (and very effective it is too). A new convert on the other hand could ask the most blasphemous of questions and get the most informative, helpful and well-thought replies (mostly). And even if the respondent can not provide such replies, he/she will try their best to direct the ‘new convert’ to the nearest Islamic centre, scholar or mosque. With you, the assumption is that you SHOULD know all of these things and are being deviant and divisive by asking questions about them! With the convert, the assumption is that he/she does not know anything and therefore, there is no harm in answering their queries.

 

To compound the madness, the cultural aspect also comes in. This can’t be easily explained. Why are men better than women? Why is Abdi allowed to play away from home and Leila gets her ear pinched if she even attempted to ‘play’ at home?

 

Maybe if you pretended to be a jilted Russian bride that developed a sudden interest in Islam, eh!

 

 

It’s late and I’m feeling sleepy now. I’ll try to expand on (or maybe rewrite) the whole thing in the morning. I have a sneaking feeling that I’m not making much sense.

[Castro]

Sheherazade, there's a topic over yonder in the Islam section with a similar motif to this one. But the two are really chalk and cheese.

 

The remainder of diatribe deleted.

[Animal Farm]

I attended this lecture at Carleton University while back, and they were talking about the rights of women in Islam, and it turns out that women have more rights compared to men.

 

That being said, I think many cultures transform certain translations into permanent cultural practices. We have to become cultural relativists if we want to explain social patterns within Islamic cultures.

 

When it comes to rights, certain rights for women within Islamic societies are man made and are not deprived from the religion, these rules are sometimes deliberately set up to oppress women, to put them in their place.

 

But, I doubt Somali women are oppressed, although domestic abuse is common in our community, not to mention mental abuse, and often as some of you have mentioned the rationality for these actions are not justified through the deen.

[xiinfaniin]

Sheh, I will, Insha Allah , attempt to answer those questions of mine. If I am not misreading your piece, you are looking for solutions to come from within. From that angle my analysis shall emanate and on it my examination shall rest.

[xiinfaniin]

Shesheey (pardon the slight corruption of your name), I could shorten my answers to two words: ignorance and culture. But that would beg the question you raised. It points the finger at a familiar direction. It does not suggest a solution.

 

I could lecture about the goodness of this faith and the superiority of its ideals. I could furnish and narrate the history of how women were emancipated from the shameful practices of pre-Islamic era: the lovely story of how property rights, right to divorce, and gender equity have come about. But those you already know.

 

So what is the reason for which we are unable to harvest? It is you, and she and I. It is simply we. Are we using these ideas? Are you? Am I? How true Muslims are we? The value of and idea, as Thomas Edison (the American inventor) once said, lies in the using of it . The changes you yearning for will never come to you if you don’t work hard and strive to make it happen. So lets put the blame squarely on us. The sisters are part of the problem, Sheh. Those who got secular education tend to develop identity crises. They tend to sing and hum with the popular songs. Hijaab becomes no longer their style. Those who have religious training tend to create a mini Islamic state of theirs. And they seem to be unaware of the challenges ahead. The gap between the two is unfortunately widening. But the objective should be, for all of us, not imitate the superficial life in the west but to live as good Muslims should. To day what you need most is to educate yourselves about the basics of this religion. The Muslim women need not to delegate the tasks of learning critical Islamic subjects.

 

You also need not to exaggerate and inflate the problems that you are facing. In the society we come from, women are not oppressed. In the urban centers women do have the opportunity and some choose to take it and some not. In the rural areas one would always expect some disparity would exist due to the primitive and harsh lifestyle and the lack of the reach of law. So I am not quite sure what you mean ‘basic rights taken away from them’. Is it a widespread phenomenon that most Muslim women have to face? Or is it an isolated incident?

 

There is also the question of modernity and change it brings. The peculiar culture where lower self takes the lead and where sexual lawlessness represents the zenith of liberty and freedom of choice. Where children are aborted in the name of women rights. That you should reject. There is also that question of modernity as it relates to balancing between family and career. What would a Muslim woman do when confronted between choosing her children and her career (the one, mind you, she sacrificed time and treasure)? What would her priorities be? Would she stick to her profession and in the way sacrifice the well being (religious, emotional, and the quality) of her precious ones? If she chooses family over profession would she then be seen as submissive and docile of sort? Here is where religious knowledge would greatly help. It is where the line between secular life and faith-based one is drawn.

 

And in the domain of decision-making, women have a role. They really do. You do it every day. Your mom did it. If you mean politics, though that may not be the ideal function for a God fearing Halimo, you may probably know that the four largest Muslim countries in the world (Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) has voted and elected woman. A political experience that is lacking in America, mind you. And although it remains a contentious issue among Muslim scholars (the admissibility for woman to hold high decision making position) the debate had, nevertheless, begun in the 9th century and that you shall pride (I don’t want to mislead you here because the majority of the jurist believe that it is not admissible for a woman to be head of state). I don’t personally think this is a problem because in the end it would boil down to the level of your faith. After all you’re bound to accept the higher rulings of Allah.

 

In the final analysis the message of this faith is one of an absolute submission to Allah. And so only Him you shall fear. And respect those who are the vessels of His Sharia.

 

There you have it my 2 cents, sister.

[-Serenity-]

I was reading that nicely..nodding my head for good measure…thinking how good and well articulated Xiin always is…

 

Then bump! Crash! Boom!

 

If you mean politics, though that may not be the ideal function for a God fearing Halimo

There Sheh. Even good Xiin wants to keep us from political participation.

 

Because I’m clever and know where this is heading, can I just ask Xiin to explain (and help me enterpret) this hadeeth(often repeated) that forms the crux of ‘muslim scholars’ argument against “the admissibility for woman to hold high decision making position†and give me any other reasons as to why he thinks women dont make ideal leaders?

 

Reported by Abu Bakra and found in Sahih Bukhari – ‘Those who entrust their affairs to a woman will never know prosperity’

 

Thanks.

[Castro]

^ You're taking the hadeeth out of context. No? Then post the story surrounding its utterance. Only then would it be easier to understand. Better yet, if you have the hadeeth in its original Arabic, please post that too.

 

Thanks!

[xiinfaniin]

I knew it coming, Falxado . I suffer from your cunning snare :mad: . Show some mercy when you pull its binding noose :mad: .

 

But in a serious note, the crux of this opinion is based not on this xadiith but on the Imaamah; leading the prayers. In ideal Islamic state the head of state is supposed to lead not only in secular activities (pardon the loose usage of the word) but in the mosques as well. But I feel I owe you more than that. So let me do my homework and find if it really is the majority opinion. If it is, let’s explore what are the justifications from the divine texts. And let us do it together.

 

P.S: if you want to run you will have my vote (I promise, Dhuubo). I was even gonna vote for this Pakistani candidate till I found out she is gay-friendly

[-Serenity-]

Castro,

 

Here is what I could find in terms of context: Feel free to correct it if you see any mistakes/inconsistencies.

 

• According to Al-Bukhari (SAHIH AL-BUKHARI Vol. I, which is considered by Muslim scholars to be the undisputed compilation of the prophet,s tradition and the most authentic book after the Book of Allah), after the Prophet learned that the Persians had named a woman to rule over their country after the death of Kisra, Abu Bakra heard the Prophet ask: "Who has replaced Kisra? The answer was: "They have entrusted power to his daughter.

   

  Here the Prophet said the Hadith: "Those who entrust their affairs to a woman will never know prosperity. This probably refers to 628 AD at the time of the wars between the Persians and the Romans. After Heraclius invaded Ctesiphon and the Persian King Khusro Parviz was assasinated there was a period of instability between 629 AD and 632 during which two women were among the various claimants to the Sassanid throne.

Xiin,

If it is, let’s explore what are the justifications from the divine texts. And let us do it together.

That would be most productive of discussions. And I only pick on you because I like how you debate.

 

Sheh, did I hijack your topic? Was this the direction you intended for it?

[Valenteenah.]

I will, Insha Allah , attempt to answer those questions of mine. If I am not misreading your piece, you are looking for solutions to come from within. From that angle my analysis shall emanate and on it my examination shall rest.

The above quote gave me hope that I may finally hear a different tune to the usual orchestral mess. Then Xiin went and pissed on my hope. What a shame.

 

Those who got secular education tend to develop identity crises. They tend to sing and hum with the popular songs. Hijaab becomes no longer their style.

Aha.

 

You also need not to exaggerate and inflate the problems that you are facing. In the society we come from, women are not oppressed

. In the urban centers women do have the opportunity and some choose to take it and some not. In the rural areas one would always expect some disparity would exist due to the primitive and harsh lifestyle and the lack of the reach of law.

So I am not quite sure what you mean ‘basic rights taken away from them’. Is it a widespread phenomenon that most Muslim women have to face? Or is it an isolated incident?

Perhaps you should do some research (even a teeny little bit would be enough) before attempting to analyse the issue.

 

 

And in the domain of

decision-making

, women have a

role

. They really do.

You do it

every day.

Your mom did it

.

This is by far my favourite. Can I ask for some clarification on what this role entails?