Female Circumcision Vs Abortion

[Xoogsade]

Pucca, You provided a good source. I read it and it confirmed what I thought was correct. Thanks for the comprehensive link with its references. It even told the reader the authenticity of every Hadith, who uses it as a source, and everything related to this issue.

[Kashafa]

Viking,

 

I understand where ur coming from, that violence isn't always the answer, but extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, unfortunately. There's an ayah that says "Wa lakum fil Qisaas xayaatun". I advocated the use of violence only in this specific case:

 

" Nur, my friends 14 year old daughter is pregnant, this Jamaican teen is worthless, a drop out, now what should I do Nur? does Islam permit abortion"? an actual phone call

The culprit has commited the crime, destroyed a family, ruined a girl, and created a life that he will not raise nor take care of. What to do ? Let him move on to girl #2 and baby #2 ? Accountability, Akh, Accountability. 2 minutes of pleasure is costing young Bob Marley his life. Is it lawful or right ? Let the scholars figure that out. You gotta do what must be done.

 

 

Then there's the deterence factor. The possiblity of death has a quick way of cooling down freewheeling libidos as well as inspiring temporary morality in otherwise vile trash.

 

Relevant Story: I was on the bus the other day, at the back with me was an girl who was in her early teens and a middle-aged man.Anyway, Michael Jackson -in-training is sitting there throwin out lame line after another: "How ya doin', baby" "Lookin' good, baby". You could tell the fake compliments were gettin to Lil' Innocence, which meant I had to step in before this monster could do anymore damage. I asked her whether she knew the guy(Nope), and was he bothering her(Yup). I turn to brother Pervert and ask him as rudely as possible(always provoke) not to address her if he wants to ride the bus safely. His response and my counter-reaction is irrelevant but the point still stands: Sometimes there is no other option than direct and unwavering action. The family of Nur's friend have to face it.

[Cara.]

^Can the macho posturing.

 

When you dehumanize a young man who has CONSENSUAL sex with a young woman so that he's merely "another black statistic" no longer emitting "vile najaasah", it kind of reduces your story's impact. It makes it sound a little...contrived... doesn't it, that, apart from when you are being a flaming racist bigot, you are a knight in shinning armor rescuing damsels in distress?

 

The culprit has commited the crime,

Nope.

 

destroyed a family,

Nope.

 

ruined a girl,

Nope.

 

and created a life that he will not raise nor take care of.

Heads up all you Somali deadbeat dads.

[Kashafa]

^^ Couldn't care less whether you belive my story or not. I don't need validation of any sort and anybody seeking it from the internet, of all places, needs mental help. Get that through your head, old fart.(ignore the epithet please, it's for technical purposes)

 

You raise a point about my strong language. Granted, I'm not the most diplomatic person you'll run into. I tend to fly straight and speak straighter. Keeps the conscience clean. Grow some nuts and try it( again, please ignore the epithet, this one is for biological purposes)

 

Consensual Sex, he says. Wow, round of applause for whoever invented Euphemisms. With one clever wording, he took away any criminal implication and the entire painful aftermath of that act. Nicely done. What's so con-sensual about it, fool ? The Baby(who the family and/or state has to feed, clothe, and raise) ? The Pregnancy, or the possiblity of STD's(which I have to pay for through my hard-earned tax money), or the pain, the anguish, and family break-up(which has no monetary value). Whopsy Daisy, almost forgot the Abortion(which happens nine times outa ten). That's also 'consensual', huh. The Muslim fetus was consulted and he put his Hancock on all the necessary forms. Of course, I haven't mentioned any of the religous or moral factors; it's kinda hard to do that when your conversing with someone who, correct me if I'm wrong, does not believe in Almighty God.

 

Plus, how the hell do you know that it's consensual, ever heard of blackmail ?, maybe he slipped a pill in her drink and raped her at a party. Regardless, the crime is no less significant.

 

Consensual sex, right ? Being the old head that you are, I'm assuming you're married( but then again, you do sound like a "New Age"ey character, so scratch that). Now say, if me and Mrs/Co-habitor Callypso, through a weird quirk of fate, did the dastardly deed, you wouldn't mind, would you ? Hey, it's consensual, buddy !! Free will, Babbbbbbyyyy. Atheer Darwin's Survival of the fittest !!

 

Having satisfactorily beat the whole 'consensual' thing to death, lemme turn to my alleged dehumanising of Young Bob Marley.

 

You must understand that 'respect' is a commodity that is bought. You must earn it. If I see you rolling in the mud in a pig sty, I will judge you based on your actions. The liberal mantra "It's your body/do what you want with it" simply holds no water. When a callous young man decides to break iron-clad norms and values, throwing a entire family into a tailspin, he deserves to be a statistic, as he has earned that priveledge. Najaasah ? got it from Quranic ayah 9:28. Look it up(only if you believe in it, ummm no offence but ahhh if you don't, please shower before touching it. standard policy for umm "Others" )

 

Macho Posturing, eh. Oh you done messed up now, fool. I'm easily found: University of Maryland, Mckeldin Library, 2nd floor. I stay put with the books. Bring it. PM me for the exact timing but only after sunset, Waa kuugu afuraa

 

P.S. iga raali ahow, if I was a little bit too harsh on you, but seeing that you were all up in arms about soon-to-be-statistic, and not even a whit of condemnation at his actions or understanding of what the girl and her family is going through, I decided on the 'gloves off' approach. You'll find me easygoing as long as you play decent and respect the sanctity of life. It's Ramadan. Handshake ? O Godless one

 

P.P.S My apologies for hijacking the thread, but it had to be said. Do continue.

[-Lily-]

Viking, you said Somali parents don't expect their kids to become sexually active, Times have changed and the old way they were raised is not sufficient any longer. Surely children should be teached by their parents the rules and morality of sex rather than just what is teached at school? They don't need their parents for that, biology teacher tells them all about reproduction, STD, contraception and so forth.

 

Again and again, ther is more concern with reputation, family name, honour, 'ruined' life.

Jahil solution for Jahil ppl.

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

Viking,

 

I understand where ur coming from, that violence isn't always the answer, but extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, unfortunately. There's an ayah that says "Wa lakum fil Qisaas xayaatun". I advocated the use of violence only in this specific case:

 

unfortunately or fortunately ?

It is usually

when men/women are at their most religious

that they behave with the least sense

and the greatest cruelty.

[Kashafa]

It is usually

when men/women are at their most religious

that they behave with the least sense

and the greatest cruelty

You must be operating on joke-time, Johnny Boy. Your fellow godless atheists, Hitler and Stalin(to name a few), were responsible for the greatest bloodbaths in human history. And that's no hyperbole. What gives ?

 

Without religion, man is reduced to base instinct and animalistic desire. Devoid of any check or balances, he does what he wants, when he wants, whenever he wants. There's no good in Life without Religion.

[Johnny B]

^^ Kashfa,This about you and your stance and you even lack a solid support from your religion, so don´t drug in Stalin or Lenin for that matter.

what could your point be?

1:Hitler killed so i chop my lil daughters clit?

2: Stalin too killed so i too kill the Jamaican guy she slept with?

ARE you insane?

 

And as for the "check and balance" or should i say "chop and balance" you claim religion brings about, i´d say

The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.

[Kashafa]

John-ka, bear with me here, aight

 

You just made a extremely generic charge: More Religion= More Cruelty/Less Sense. Since you are SOL's reigning Chief Intellectual, that's an unforgivable lapse. All I did was point out the fallacy.

 

Ka gudub.

 

Me and my stance ? What is my stance, pray tell. Scroll up and read. On second thought, don't bother. I'll give it to you plain and simple. FGM=wrong, Killing Jamaican guy=right. My reasoning is covered in-depth in 3 posts. Soo Aqri.

 

Why do I get the feeling that you would just love to be a slave in Ancient Rome ? Check it: No organised religion, it's 12 gods who are worshipped nominally and erratically. If you got beef with Appolo, Poisedon will take care of you, you get tired of him, keep it moving, there's no shortage of patrons. complete sexual freedom, kill and plunder at will for your master who will undoubtly reward you for your services. what more could a sensual heretic ask for ? Utopia, no ?

[Johnny B]

Kashafa, hold it right there !!

I´m everything but SOL's reigning intellectual. I neither claimed nor do i intend to.

The only unforgivable lapse here is your ad hominem .

 

Hang on with me here.

I could have a fallacy in my statement according to your answer if and only if i stated Hitler or Stalin were right, i cappito?

Here is your stance:

Far waa wayn: Abortion is a far more henious crime than FGM. Cutting of a hand, a foot, or a clitoris for that matter can never come close to ending sacred life.

...I'd have the family shoot the Jamaican dude(who impregnated her with his vile najaasah) dead. It can be 'fixed' so that he's another black statistic. It's very doable, runtii

Now neither me nor Stalin or Mother goose can help you out.

[Kashafa]

^^ You disappoint me. You really do, Johnny. There I was quaking in my dacas, asking myself what sort of witchcraft will John-ka hit you with, now that he's heated up nice and proper. And the best you can do is this:

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Here is your stance:

quote:

---

Far waa wayn: Abortion is a far more henious crime than FGM. Cutting of a hand, a foot, or a clitoris for that matter can never come close to ending sacred life.

...I'd have the family shoot the Jamaican dude(who impregnated her with his vile najaasah) dead. It can be 'fixed' so that he's another black statistic. It's very doable, runtii

Now neither me nor Stalin or Mother goose can help you out.

For anybody reading with an objective mind-set, there's simply no mistaking a contradiction between my 1st statement and the 2nd. But you're up for an argument this morning and I'm game(it's a Saturday and it's pouring outside).

 

'Sacred Life' in that specific example refers to the fetus in the womb, hence I didn't use any qualifiers, assuming there would be no nitpickin' literalists on the prowl. But the statement still applies elsewhere. Ending any life without justifiable cause is also henious. With me so far ? Good.

 

Now all we gotta do is define what justifiable cause is. I say it's relative on crime committed and consequences of said crime. Using that criteria, impregnating a girl out of wedlock is justifiable cause numero uno for reasons I've harped on earlier. In other words, there is cause to end the life of Bob Marley, Jr. To be clear-cut for any potential nitpicker: there is nothing henious about ending his life and only a fool would draw a parallel between that and a fetus getting murdered in the womb. One is just retribution for grievances rendered, the other is murder, and ending sacred life. Feel me ?

 

I won't even ask you to defend your ridiculous assertion. We both know the sole purpose was to rile up the 'religous' folk. It's kinda sad to see that you have to resort to 'flaming' to get ur point across.( I succesfully resisted the urge to add, "at ur age", must be gettin' the hang of the whole 'civility thang')

 

Enjoy your Iftaaa...... that's my bad, almost said Iftar(what was I thinking !), Enjoy your kvällsmat/middag

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

^^ You disappoint me. You really do, Johnny. There I was quaking in my dacas, asking myself what sort of witchcraft will John-ka hit you with, now that he's heated up nice and proper.

Enjoy your Iftaaa...... that's my bad, almost said Iftar(what was I thinking !), Enjoy your kvällsmat/middag [/quote

 

Very articulate one might think !!

Kashfa, you´re right , i ´ve been too kind to write it on your nose ( as we say it here).

 

If you refuse to accept a statement, and justify your refusal by

criticizing the person who made the statement, then you are guilty of abusive ad hominem

example:

" Johnny .. you speak about religious matters.... and i KNOW you lack religion like Stalin".

 

instead of critizing me, the saturday evening, the drinking , and everything you could think of Johnny doing on an evening like this , you simply could have challenged my assertions, and saved us a sigh.

calm down Kashafa, there is no conspiracy against what you consider "religious" ppl from what you consider "non-religious" ppl who possess a powerful witchcraft.

and beleive me this hasen´t even put me into mood of warming up.

 

How do you know that i´m not a secret agent of the eNuri troops?

 

Even if i abandon the clit chopping buisiness and the pro abortion stand, still i could make you wet by simply holding you for your unjustifieable cold blooded murder of the Jamaican boi, i won´t even do that , just stay on track and stop firing around you.

 

P/s ,, thanks .. it´s actually "köttbullar med mos and lingon och vit vin" ,am having for dinner

 

Enjoy your Iftar and the rest of the evening !!

[Valenteenah.]

Lo0oL. Kashafa, stop, stop, STOP! If the hole you're digging gets any deeper, you will surely be taking a fatal freefall to God knows where. Talk about being negatively charged! :eek:

 

 

Viking,

 

The sex education you are talking about is not the parental education we are talking about. Opening communication lines with your daughters/sons, helping them talk/work through their problems/angst and giving them the confidence and self-esteemed required for them to make the right decisions and/or to say NO when they need to, is hardly the sex education they teach in schools here. No one is asking for the parents to teach their children how to use a condom or a coil. That would be above and beyond their remit as parents.

[Viking]

Originally posted by WaTerLily:

Viking, you said Somali parents don't expect their kids to become sexually active, Times have changed and the old way they were raised is not sufficient any longer. Surely children should be teached by their parents the rules and morality of sex rather than just what is teached at school? They don't need their parents for that, biology teacher tells them all about reproduction, STD, contraception and so forth.

WaTerLily,

You seem to completely agree with me, but the way you articulated yourself in your previous post misled me. You said..."How many somali parents discuss sex with their children? It's shued away as 'ceeb'...Nur, go preach to the parents to discuss sex with their children."

 

This led me to think that you were asking for parents to discuss sex (the way westerners do) with their children. How else could I have understood the above? Most Somali children have some sort of Islamic education on the side or are brought up with Islamic morals; it would be easier to find a needle in a haystack than it would be to find a young Somali who doesn't know that pre-marital sex is totally haraam.

 

Aeronwen,

Good communication is always commendable between parents and their children. Nevertheless, this does not always guarantee that the young will abstain from indulging in pre-marital copulation. I think those of us who live abroad are sometimes drawn to the ways of our occidental hosts, they usually have good communication with their children, but besides our apparent "inferior" communication with our parents, we seem to respect and honour them much more. The most important thing is not being a "buddy" to your child but to teach them Islamic morals (either at home or instructed at a madrasa with a knowledgable macalin). At the end of the day, they will be making their own decisions and education (of the Deen - morals) would be more important than good communication with parents. That's just my opinion.

[Valenteenah.]

Originally posted by Viking:

Aeronwen,

Good communication is always commendable between parents and their children. Nevertheless, this does not always guarantee that the young will abstain from indulging in pre-marital copulation.

I think those of us who live abroad are sometimes drawn to the ways of our occidental hosts, they usually have good communication with their children, but besides our apparent "inferior" communication with our parents, we seem to respect and honour them much more.

The most important thing is not being a "buddy" to your child but to teach them Islamic morals (either at home or instructed at a

madrasa

with a knowledgable

macalin

). At the end of the day, they will be making their own decisions and education (of the Deen - morals) would be more important than good communication with parents. That's just my opinion.

I agree that a parent cannot be a 'buddy' with their children. They have to be a parent. Teaching them Islamic Morals and making sure they understand what they are being taught, is that not education? Would it not require good open communication between parents and children? Why should either be confined only to foreigners? And where does the West come into it? Simply being told that something is haraam, is not enough anymore. The education children receive at home must be more comprehensive and more effective. Nothing else will do.

 

The fact of the matter is, if you are bringing up young children in a country contrary to your values and culture, you would be best advised to stay on top of the game. What worked for our parents in Somalia and Arabia in the 1960s, 70s and 80s is NOT going to work for the parents and children of today in Europe and America. They must adapt to their environment and, more importantly, they must give their children the critical skills and tools they need to survive in these countries.

 

We all love our parents regardless of their parenting styles, but that does not mean that they shouldn't get the blame when they are not doing their jobs. The more we deny that parents are to blame for what's happening to our youngsters, the more the community will experience monumental problems.