Female Circumcision Vs Abortion

[Faarax-Brawn]

Asalaam Aleeykum Xaaji Sh Nuur:I have two very simple questions Sheequna:

 

What happens to :

 

1. A Teenage girl who is already been thru Gudnin ?; Does she have her entire privates shut off?

 

2. What happens to the girl who is already in Kuntuwaarey?, does she get moved to say, De-Kuntuwaarey? :confused:

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

 

WHAT DO THE 4 MADHABS THINK OF THIS?

 

 

The following section is found in the standard Shafi'i manual of Islamic law which states in English translation:

 

 

BOOK E: PURIFICATION

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

 

(Source: Reliance of the Traveller, A translation of the classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law (Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994, p. 59; A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi; Ar. Arabic; n: ... remark by the translator; O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat)

 

Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).

 

In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates.

 

A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da‘ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.

 

How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm ‘Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da‘if).

 

Fi Amanillah

[x_quizit]

Nur,

 

For an illustrious sheikh who prides himself on the knowledge of the deen, u come across a tad ignorant with a dash of sexist and a pinch of chauvanist thrown in for good measure. :mad:

 

Calling on the mutilation of women as a solution to teen pregnancy is not only ludicrous but harmful as well, since many on sol actually believe u know what ur talking about. Laughable concept isn't it? :rolleyes:

 

U also seemed to have joined the ranks of christian fundamentalist who believe the root of all evil are women and to control the airheaded female, one must take away her sexual organs in order that she won't be foolish enuff to let all the mighty swords in. At the risk of sounding cheesy, it takes 2 to tango, and if it weren't for the mighty sperm, the female egg wouldn't be fertilized.

 

Instead of calling on FGM, the lesser evil against abortion u call it, how about u educate ur fellow men other than pointing the finger as usual on the women. Both sexes need to be taught about the consequences of sex out of wedlock, not told that one sex has more of a responsibility than the other.

 

Contrary to ur faulty logic, many gals who have gone thru FGM still have managed ways to lift their skirts despite the well thought out multilation of her organs....so what now oh wise one? Point is, with or w/o circumsition, those that wish to sin will do it, and no amount of stiching and "re-construction" will stop them from their endeavors. Now the logical thing would be to return to religion, and not lapse back into a time of ignorance, hoping that cruelty would be the method of abstinence.

 

As for those that said returning the "wild" xalimos back home, somalia has become the metaphor for chastity....are u kidding me?

 

So like a man to suggest FGM when the results of that barbaric practice has been seen around the world, knowing u'd never be subjugated it to it.... problems associated with fertility, difficulty giving birth, intense menstrual cramps, death, just to name a few, but u already knew that, while doing ur "extensive" research right?

 

Since we can all be whatever we want on the net, and the position of the sheikh is taken, I'll settle for the next best thing....Mary poppins... :cool:

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Nur:

Shehersad sis

 

Never hush up an idea, open disussions and respect of others point of view is conducive to finding a solution, I dont have a solution, just an idea that could prove to be either right or wrong, taken all assumptions to account, and I hold nothing holly other than the word of Allah......

 

.......

and if you insist, I am also for chopping of penises if it can save abortion as a lesser evil

.

 

Nur

There, the appeasement is gone. No penises shall be chopped off. However, the issue still remains and might be worth discussing without wondering at the author’s motives.

 

I personally disagree with him 100%. But, like many others here, I have a feeling that the exaggeration in the way the topic is presented is more to do with the provoking of debate than the holding of such rigid beliefs.

 

If we were presented with a topic about abortion on it’s own, we all (probably) would have posted replies suggesting that the young need to return to the faith, or saying that the parents should take responsibility or even saying ‘ maxa naga galay’. The replies would be short, simple and to the point.

 

Now this extreme solution whilst wrong (IMHO) forces us to think of alternatives of equal gravity and thoroughness. For, surely, nothing can be more through than chopping people’s bits off! Let us all put ourselves in the shoes of a girl facing this crazy prospect and, like I assume she would do, shout our heads off as we present alternatives and make promises to the Butcher approaching us with the knife (the depiction here is accidental). If we’re convincing enough, we might stave him off.

 

I disagree with female circumcision because I believe it to be the lazy answer. In it’s essence; it is no different to those that tie mad people to railings (for their own good) or mothers that burn a naughty child to stop him/her from playing with fire! It really is not a cure but a punishment. It never considers, allows for or spares anytime for rehabilitation or, dare I say it, cure.

 

Some might argue that the lesser evil would be to encourage the use of condoms and birth control methods. However, if we can have the resources and time to introduce and encourage such methods we also have time to spread the word and improve moral awareness. Six of one and half a dozen of the other really.

 

Still, before we go into thinking up solutions for this problem, does anyone know how big it is? How widespread? Any sexually transmitted diseases uncovered while researching it?

 

In addition, what do we do to boys who indulge in sexual practises and abandon their girlfriends once they fall pregnant? What about non-Somali (and non-Muslim) girls that consider aborting the child of her Muslim (Somali) boyfriend? Do we chop her off or let her off?

 

I realise that my words above sound like something Dr Josef Mengele would utter, but since we’re only brainstorming here and are not really going to chop anything off, there is no harm in playing doctors and nurses (not in a smutty sense of course).

[Xalimopatra]

Aeronwen well said walaashiis.

May I lead on from where you made the point about the key focus to the problems should be dealt with in societal terms and not biologically..?

 

The main issue with sex and gudniin is that it is still regarded as a highly taboo topic amongst our community.

I mean if your parents cant even approachable and be there for you when you have queries then who can you speak to? :eek:

 

In my teen years my parents sat me down and explained what they had chosen for me and why I should not feel inadequate or dirty.I remember one point my aabo made was that I should never worry about what others thought or take into consideration what those who bearly knew their diin had to say about me (I remember this because this was the first time I have ever heard him swear..."bull-S" )

The immense sense of respect that I owe to my parents I cant even begin to describe wallahi.The amount of trust they instilled in me is ALWAYS there at the back of my mind.I'll be damned if I throw all of that back in their faces.

Seriously I believe that communication is key in solving social problems amongst teens.

 

Aabo I love you so much..

[Cara.]

What was that saying about clay feet?

 

 

Lock them up: Not allowed.

Beat them: Not allowed

 

So, you stumble on a weird idea, Gudid ,

Is FGM allowed then?

[Raxmah]

FGM as many have mentioned is not and cannot be a way to keep females from having sex, many still have sex after going thru the procedure.

 

Here is an idea, how about good parenting, the team work of mom and dad in raising children in islamic faith, that goes along way in a childs life. Unfortunately almost all the time, their is always a father figure missing. From what I have seen most parents let their children go especially when they need parental guidance the most.

[Haneefah]

Subhanallah, how incredibly disheartening. Af salax ku dhag indeed!

 

And to think that we were even remotely close to progressing... :rolleyes:

[Nur]

Disclaimer:

 

For those of you who have elevated me up to Papacy, please be kind to me, I cant handle Sainthood, Papacy is a clean cerimonial job that avoids head-on-collision with controversial issues, I cant handle that title, e-Nuri and company prosper being like tghe same crowd, if not worse at times, I feel relieved to be demoted to a humanlike natural level because of my views, I feel that being stoned for my honest opinion to be far better than to be welcomed in roses for a hypocritical suggestion that begs acceptance, I have never subscribed to conventional wisdom, and I dont plan to, but for the sake of disussion, your criticism should be toward the idea, not toward a character, this is an advice many readers need to heed including myself.

 

 

Salaams Brothers and Sister

 

I skimmed throu all the responses to the thread, Alhamdulillah, I learned a lot of how readers think, select what to read, then react in so many ways. including but not limited to poisoning the well.

 

First: No single NOMAD, BIG ZERO, refferred to my disapproval of the pracrice , I wrote that I believe that :

 

 

Faith as the intsrument of controlling carnal desires not surgery, once morality is in place, no intrusion to the private life of any sex is required

 

ONCE MORALITY IS IN PLACE is the catch phrase no one bothered to read.

 

Thus, my thread dealt with a situation, when morality is not in place! so save your breath about Sheikhs-to-the Job slogan.

 

 

Why do I feel like a writer who suggests that there was no holocaust? Ideas should be brought to the open, discussed with cool heads, emotions should not play into an intellectual discussion, after all we are here trying to solve emotionally driven problems, to slove this problem requires no less than a objective way of approaching the problem, analysing the alternatives, chosing the best course and then volunnteering to implement in our communities.

 

 

The best response that represented my intention was by Ngonge:

 

 

I have a feeling that the exaggeration in the way the topic is presented is more to do with the provoking of debate than the holding of such rigid beliefs

 

Indeed, as a response to Rahima asking me if have a solution I wrote:

 

I dont know walaalo, I need ideas from readers, and then we will open an e-Nuri no hussle quick stop Gudid clinic for troubled teens, will use latest technology? ( By the way, I have e gynocologist friend of mine , very devout, he has seen unspeakable cases of teens mutilating themselves with jewelery, how come no one is up in arms to stop that?.

 

That statement echoes my frustration of seeing so many abortion clinics catering to our lil girls in secret without any parental awareness, wherever Nomads live, no question asked, 30 minutes, Domino Pizza dead baby delivery or your money is back guarantee service , the sheikhs in community repeat the mantra that FGM is bad, OK its bad, but what about the cold blooded murder that is going on day in and day out? by the time I finish this paragaraph another teen is getting pregnant, what about the agony, pain of delivery, and yes, the normal delivery cutting up she has to endure at an early age?

 

I am not a Gynochologist, but I have conferred with one about this topic, its not how unspeakable FGM is, thats my issue, its how unspeakable silent screams around abortion clinics that is going on that seems no one cares about, and if anyone has an alternative to Gudidda, that can solve the disheartening problem in our community, then by all means I am for it, I take no pleasure in inflicting pain and dismemberment on others, neither do I accept others to kill an unborn just because they are driven by uncontrollable lust in a sexually libereated society.

 

For those who think that it is disgusting to talk about this topic, believe me, its helping many Nomads too shy to discuss this topic in public , we live in a time an age when xishood is dangerous, so bear with me:

 

In the Hadeeth Science ( Cilmul Xadeeth ) one way of disqualifying a narrator 's credibility as acceptable is if he has a character of GHAFLATUL SAALIXIIN meaning the ignorance of the saintly, the Sheikh being out of synch with what is going around him of evil. I have a track record of addressing this problems to the core and introducing many solutions, such as the Halaal Boyfriend/Girlfriend concept on Snet years ago, why, because of the same problem, it was amusing for many readers, but for many young adults, it was literally life and death ( of the unborn) like we say, bisadina waa ka ciyaar, jiirna wa ka naf.

 

Many Nomads would be surprised to know that FGM is not always something parents do it to their kids, teens are increasingly doing it to themselves by CHOICE, hanging jewelery on their genitals and even more disgusting than that. Abortion as business as usual is not being address by this crowd which was half of the issue on thread, everyone is rallying behind the so called FGM, actually, I never recognize that politically motivated name, malpractice exists in all operations, a minor one was done on me once, but to use that pretext to breakdown entire cultures in order to create some sort of sisterhood between devout Muslim sisters and feminists, is a novel way of containing the Islamic womens renaisssanse, not everyone who poops on you is your enemy, and not everone who gets you out of poop is your friend, as a male i was also genitaly mutilated in a sense, I had no choice, because my parents decided my second day that i will be done, and I was, I am thankful they did, but how about if I was hurt in the process? it would have been a malpractice, as for women, if a young woman can limit pressure on herself by doing such a surgery, then that should be her choice too, the problems is when a dependent plays with fire right in front of her parents eyes, Now, is all the hoobla by international organizations that sponsor ligimacy for prostitution like the (ILO) International Labor organization about FGM a (Kalimutu Xaqin Uraada Bihaa Baatil) A Right Word with Malicious Intentions behind it? You are the judge

 

In Conclusion, Gudidda as done in Somalia should be banned, no girl should go through that life threatening ritual, if on the other hand a consensus is reached by a competent Medical Professionals and Religious Scholars of the safety of a Sunnah compliant Gudid surgery, that will help a minor cope with sexual pressure without compromising her marital sentiments, then I am emboldened more than ever to say that I am all for it, and I stand by my statement until proven wrong.

 

 

This will be my last post in Ramadan, i will be away from cyberspace remainder of the month, inshallaah will catch up when I come back.

 

Love and Peace

 

Nur

[Nephissa]

^ Run Nur, run..run like an illegal Mexican crossing the border! I can mentally visualize the rotating three-dimensionality of your foot as it entered your mouth.

 

At first, I consider your remarks to be misogynistic, which depresses me. And second, I really liked e-nuri. But this consistent indulgent/girls-are-horny-and-therefore be mutilated vibe - you put out about women is really distressing, and Gross!

 

Nevertheless, when the offender is alerted to the offense, I think it's reasonable to expect him to stop offending. But no, you went on shooting your mouth off again. You don't know, afterall, what it's really like to walk in a woman's shoes. I can tell you, I have to go an extra mile or two regularly, to overcome this..

Ahh! Ok, i'm really getting sick talking about this. I should leave before i get too emotional, and find more opportune post to respond to.

[Mutakalim]

O Sanctas Simplicitas! Wadaadka cumaamaadii iyo go'ii ayaa ka wada dhacaye. Alahayoow ceebtayada inoo astur.

 

To intrepret this as a provcative thread and not as a piece of sublime nonsense requires a generosity of spirit, which, I must own, is in abundance this month; in this number, I shall not take umbrage at the suggestion of "institutionalizing" the disfigurement of the female reproductive organ (excuse my Victorian prudishness) as the thread is devised save to ignite a fire-storm of responses. Controversy is a capsule which is as attractive to the healthy person as it is to the handicapped one, and to the intelligent as it is to the ignoramus.

 

The notion that we must, at times, sacrifice our moral constitution, and, indeed, our biological composition in order to effect a "greater good" is not an argument that we can shoddily dismiss or emotively decry sans analysis and consideration. The natural reaction of wincing despair and sneering superiority must be succeeded by a more sober "detached deconstruction".

 

The allowance of small evils, all factors remaining the same, might lead to the procurement of greater goods; id est, in medicine, a limb may be lopped off to preserve the body; in husbandry, selectively disadvantaged livestock may be eradicated to ensure a stable gene pool; in industry, factory workers may be discharged to produce sustainable economy ; in governance, territory may be given up to secure a kingdom.

 

Unless the circumstances coerce one into performing such a sacrifice, one ought not to embark on it as the ramifications would be counter-productive and potentially disastrous. It would be a failure of not exercising intellignece and sound judgement if one lopped off one's arm because one's pollex was bleeding; in like manner, the relinquishment of a state sans doubtless provision of kingdom is counter-intuitive.

 

Now you see, to go under the knife the female would have to satisfy these two conditons

 

i)The female will secure chastity.

 

ii) By being so "reconfigured" (essentially disfigured), she will not suffer ailments.

 

However, it is no secret that some circumsized females are promiscous- this floors the first condition. Further, most females suffer a plethora of ailments in their life as a result of this circumcison- this disconfirms the second condition.

 

Other germane queries, which many of the Nomads have posed are:-

 

1. What is the cause of promoiscuity? (in both males and females). Is it largely biological, or is it predominatly pyschological? Is one gender more inclined towards illicit copulation than the other?

 

2. Are there any corpora of statistics that shows that female circumcsions lead to less promiscuity, and, hence, less abortions and out of wedlock children. Of course, the science of statistics is very important, which leads us to enquire about the parameters of such a sample.

 

3. What is the ideal age to reconfigure one's daughter? Surely, not when she is an adolescent or a teen, because if you can circumsize her while she is a teen, then you also have the ability of "beating her silly" or "locking her up", so why must you play with her body? How does a parent determine the presence of promiscuity? Is the mother simply supposed to rely on her maternal instinct; the father, his paternal perception, or perhaps the parents need a smoking gun before summoning the local meat man?

 

Of course, by attempting to provide any concrete answers to those questions, E-Nuri et al will, inadvertently, reduce themselves to absurdity. The whole argument is predicated on two unsubstantiated assumptions and premises, viz., there is a correlation between abortions and circumcsion, and the female is the cardinal culprit in these matters. What is required is more than a casual appeal to some obscure Gynocologist.

 

I remember having thumbed through a philosophical tract, a sennight ago, regarding the structure and system of Ibn Sina's philosophy and medicine. It seems that NGONGE echoed the Avicennan axiom when he referred to the need to understand the nature of a phenomenon before attempting to cure it (causes, symptoms, diagnosis, prognosis, type- mental,physical); in this case, it entails realizing that it is not so much a biological matter as it is a pyschological one. In his oft-celebrated masterpiece in medicine "The Canon of Medicine" (القانون ÙÙŠ الطب), Ibn Sina, muslim philosopher and physician, devotes many treastises to pyschological ailments (e.g. Reactive depression, Emotional stress, Insanity, Obsessive affection). He wrote that it a mistake to attempt to treat mental complications and physical ailments in a similiar manner due to their intrinsic disparateness. It is just as much a mistake to amputate the healthy limb (as a measure of diagnosis) of an insane person as it is not to amputate the irreparably infected limb of a sane person.

 

Promiscuity is a product of nurturing and not a product of nature. In this sense, it is an "internal" phenomenon, so treating it as an "external" one would not only be unproductive, rather it might bring about other complications. To sanction and encourage FGM in a Somali society which is already in tatters will indubitably cause a full-scale meltdown thereof.

 

Sometimes- too rarely, but sometimes- we have to be guided by sound research as opposed to speculations and guesswork.

 

With Salaams

PK

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

Im just curious, is there ANYYYY MADHAB that considers FEMALE CIRCUMSION TO BE HARAAAAM!!!

 

I can't find anything that suggests so.

 

Nur and Mutkalim and the rest of the nomads,

 

what do the Madaheeb (shafi, malik, hanabili,hanafi, jafari etc.) say about this Masalah/Question?

 

I'm curious and I will admit that I have little knowledge about the subject.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Valenteenah.]

Originally posted by Mutakalim:

The whole argument is predicated on two unsubstantiated assumptions and premises, viz., there is a correlation between abortions and circumcsion, and the female is the cardinal culprit in these matters.

There it is.

 

 

Nur,

 

No one promoted you to the post of papacy. You appointed yourself as an authority on Religious matters through your Enuri articles and mission. You can't blame the members of this site who not only look up at you, but who also take everything you say for granted for you are the one who actively encouraged and built that trust.

 

The crux of your argument is that FGM can be used to cure abortions, is it not? You are under the impression that if a young girl is circumcised she will not be engaging in sexual activies before marriage. Ergo Female Circumcision is the cure to this particular social problem. Following this thought process, one can argue that FGM is a potential panacea for every social ill we are likely to encounter. And why not? If it is a cure for something like abortions which it has no links with, then why not other issues? Could not FGM stop so many of our younger men committing petty crimes? Could it not prevent them from going to jail at such young ages and completely destroying their lives and future? Could it not force irresponsible and absentee fathers to look after their families and raise their children? Could it not even stop young Somali children underperforming in schools? So what if FGM plays no part in any of these scenarios? If it can work for abortions, why not every other problem we have? After all, women are the crux of every ill, are they not?

 

Ideas can be discussed, but they have to have elements worth discussing. Abortion is a diabolical thing. We hate it. It is murder. FGM is as diabolical. It means mutilation and life-long suffering for a woman (I would also like to point out that male and female circumcision are not even close to being similar. Female circumcision is so much more dangerous to a woman's health that it is not even comparable. I point it out because you mentioned your own 'genital mutilation' at a young age. You could hardly term male circumcision as 'mutilation' since the organ is left completely intact. Perhaps if they took off half of it, it may begin to be classed as 'mutilation').

 

How does one go about linking female circumcision to what drives a young woman to engage in sex or have an abortion? How does one think that removing a woman's genital parts will stop said woman from contemplating killing her unborn child? How are the two related? What effect could the lack of that particular part, have on the thinking of somebody who is so confused, or so uncaring that they would actually take the life of their unborn baby?

 

Abortion needs solutions and so does FGM. But one can not be a solution to the other. They are two entirely different problems.

 

So, as far as I am concerned, you have no point. Your argument is invalid. I am willing to discuss the issue of abortions and fornication, but not the idea that FGM is the cure. That is not worth a discussion to me. But perhaps other people feel differently.

 

Ramadan Kariim.

 

 

Quruxley,

 

You have hit on probably one of the only few measures that can make a difference to the problem of pre-marital sex and subsequent abortions. So many people have already mentioned it as an important solution. But it is easily overlooked because it places such heavy blame on parents (and therefore fathers). If they are not doing their jobs, who will do it for them? If all they contribute to their daughters and sons is the attitude of 'ceeb, waxaa lagama hadlo' or physical abuse, then what good are they? But that is the critical issue within the Somali community. For many mothers, parenting is just feeding, clothing and providing a shelter for their children, and I know that's hard enough, but there is more to raising strong, responsible and morally astute children than that (also how are they to know any differently when they were raised like that as well? When they were not educated?). For a significant number of the fathers, parenting begins and ends with impregnating the woman.

 

But why tackle those issues? Why pursue such difficult solutions as educating a whole society, when you can just mutilate young girls? Why try to get to the heart of the problem when cosmetic surgery would be so much easier to dish out? What I am reading here is an attitude of 'as long as the solution directly affects only one gender, and as long I'm not that gender, then by heck, why not?'.

 

Educating today's girls/boys, will mean that tomorrow's parents are well equiped to educate their children.

 

I must also say that the amount of clear-thinking, educated and socially-aware people on this site makes me think that it is doable. Perhaps things are not as black as they look?

[Xoogsade]

It is all about knowing who had been there first before someone else did it. A brutal way of fact finding indeed.

 

Like Khayr asked, what do Mad-habs say about this? And if they use Ahadith, how authentic are these Hadiths?

 

I am sorry if I asked questions outside the topic.

 

My Vote is no "CIRCUMCISION" for women.

[Khayr]

Salamz,

 

 

Ergo Female Circumcision is the cure to this particular social problem. Following this thought process, one can argue that FGM is a potential panacea for every social ill we are likely to encounter. And why not? If it is a cure for something like abortions which it has no links with, then why not other issues?

Can this be called a 'STRAW MAN's ' argument?