Kool_Kat Posted June 9, 2009 Originally posted by *Buuxo*: Tan kale,let's not fool ourselves ,we might have passports but many of us are living in wealthy countries in relative poverty.marka let's not critise only single mothers oo systemka cheat-garenayo ama dhalinyarad factory ka shaqeeyo ama waalidhiinta nostalgia kaliya kusocdo.Challenge baa na hortaal generationkeen,let's make a real difference to dadkeena iyo dalkeen meelkaste ee jooganba. Buuxo, sadex wax baad isku lifaaqday...First, single motherka system ka dhuuqaya, kuwa aan dhibka ku qabo waa kuwa very year or second year manage to have more kids...Which hadii runta la'isku sheego means odaygii isagoo joogo bey year after year after year cunug kasoo tuuroysaa! Hadeysan caruurta afford gareen karin yeysan dhalin, hadey dhalaana caruur xaaraan lagu koriyay yaanan hadhow dheef laga sugin... Second, dhalinyarada factoryga, airportka, car rentalada iyo wixii lamid ah ka shaqeeya, like I said before, if this is something they're doing on temparary basis, it is understandable...How ever, waxaan fahmi karin markey nolosha ka dhigtaan ineysan wax kale qabsan karin other than shaqooyinkaas...The opportunities far surpass the limits they put on themselves when they settle for less... Third, waalidiinta wax aan ka dhihi karo maleh, as I am sure kuligood iney nagu koriyeen to the best they could...Laakiin waa anagii inaan meesha wax ka qabsano, kana faa'iideysano fursadaha nala siiyay...Anagey tahay inaan is dhiira galino, oo aan wixii horumar ah isku caawino isuna sheegno... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar Posted June 9, 2009 Originally posted by Kool_Kat: quote:Originally posted by *Buuxo*: Tan kale,let's not fool ourselves ,we might have passports but many of us are living in wealthy countries in relative poverty.marka let's not critise only single mothers oo systemka cheat-garenayo ama dhalinyarad factory ka shaqeeyo ama waalidhiinta nostalgia kaliya kusocdo.Challenge baa na hortaal generationkeen,let's make a real difference to dadkeena iyo dalkeen meelkaste ee jooganba. Buuxo, sadex wax baad isku lifaaqday...First, single motherka system ka dhuuqaya, kuwa aan dhibka ku qabo waa kuwa very year or second year manage to have more kids...Which hadii runta la'isku sheego means odaygii isagoo joogo bey year after year after year cunug kasoo tuuroysaa! Hadeysan caruurta afford gareen karin yeysan dhalin, hadey dhalaana caruur xaaraan lagu koriyay yaanan hadhow dheef laga sugin... Second, dhalinyarada factoryga, airportka, car rentalada iyo wixii lamid ah ka shaqeeya, like I said before, if this is something they're doing on temparary basis, it is understandable...How ever, waxaan fahmi karin markey nolosha ka dhigtaan ineysan wax kale qabsan karin other than shaqooyinkaas...The opportunities far surpass the limits they put on themselves when they settle for less... Third, waalidiinta wax aan ka dhihi karo maleh, as I am sure kuligood iney nagu koriyeen to the best they could...Laakiin waa anagii inaan meesha wax ka qabsano, kana faa'iideysano fursadaha nala siiyay...Anagey tahay inaan is dhiira galino, oo aan wixii horumar ah isku caawino isuna sheegno... Nothing wrong barbaar badan la dhalo, oo dadkii dhalay u taalaa sababta u dhaleen iyo waxee u rabaan. Koriskoodana iyaga u taalaa. Ama haku koriyaan shab ama muruqooda, taas qof kale ee u taalo maleh. Dhaqan gaaleedka oo hal iyo laba la dhalaayo ma fiicno, run ahaantii. Irsaaqada Eebbe haayo, qof hadduu awoodo intuu dhalaayo ha dhalo. Tan kalena dhalinyarada ku shaqeysanaayo shaqooyinkaas aad tirisay, haddee iyaga caadi u arkaan, nothing wrong with that. At least muruqooda ayee maalanoyaan, qaarkoodna ku korsanoyaan qoyskooda, making the ends meet. Some of those jobs pay good, oo saas uma xumo. Magac ahaan ha u fiirin iyo meesha laga shaqeeyo. As long as it is paying good and xalaal, waa caadi. Dad ayaa xaaraan dhex walaaqo, such as real estate agents and bankers, day in and out dealing with interests iyo usury. Those jobs dad ayaa u arko xaaraan xaaraan dhaaftay, yet at the same time same people who criticize dadka kale who earn xalaal jobs waxba kama sheegaan kuwaas because jobs like real estate and those in banking sector are 'respected.' Meesha waa in aakhiro laga fikiraa as well, adduun kaliya ma'ahee. This world beri dhamaanaa. Again qof walba nolosha isku si maku arko, qof walbana uma arko working at a lofty office from 9-5, working for some invisible corporations inay dan u tahay. Dadka waa kala nooc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N.O.R.F Posted June 9, 2009 National identity is over-rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nin-Yaaban Posted June 9, 2009 Waxaan filayaa "Taxi Drivers" iney shaqooyinka fiic fiican kamidtahay hadii eysan KK waxba kasheegin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abu-Salman Posted June 9, 2009 Kolka lasoo koobo, walaasheen KK waxay ku saxsantahay inay tahay luggooyo ciyaal ku kori rizq xaaraan ah, adoo kadib khayr ama nafci ka sugaya. Not only it is plainly immoral and mis-educating the children, but cheating the system means dire consequences both immediately and in the afterlife; likewise, culimas have time and again warned us against parents falsely claiming to have separated as the resulting children may then be "xaaraan" (marriage, as an institution decreted by Allah, is far beyond such schemes and even joking with divorce could be equated with divorce Fiqh-wise) All that for what? typically around £ 200 a year, as working parents may be entitled to tax credits etc; much less than the omnipresent flat screen TV we poison Somali offsprings' minds with... Now, frugality is a virtue and children are a blessing and we should not look at life through purely materialistic lenses; however, one should avoid compromising ethically at all cost, for their own sake! As for making a living, the only imperative is to avoid xaaraan sources as well as dubious ones however over-represented they are (the rest is secondary and a bonus, ie seeking better conditions or pay etc)... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hassan_B Posted June 9, 2009 Originally posted by Abu-Salman: Kolka lasoo koobo, walaasheen KK waxay ku saxsantahay inay tahay luggooyo ciyaal ku kori rizq xaaraan ah, adoo kadib khayr ama nafci ka sugaya. Not only it is plainly immoral and mis-educating the children, but cheating the system means dire consequences both immediately and in the afterlife; likewise, culimas have time and again warned us against parents falsely claiming to have separated as the resulting children may then be "xaaraan" (marriage, as an institution decreted by Allah, is far beyond such schemes and even joking with divorce could be equated with divorce Fiqh-wise) All that for what? typically around £ 200 a year, as working parents may be entitled to tax credits etc; much less than the omnipresent flat screen TV we poison Somali offsprings' minds with... Now, frugality is a virtue and children are a blessing and we should not look at life through purely materialistic lenses; however, one should avoid compromising ethically at all cost, for their own sake! As for making a living, the only imperative is to avoid xaaraan sources as well as dubious ones however over-represented they are (the rest is secondary and a bonus, ie seeking better conditions or pay etc)... EXACTLY 100%%%% Haram sustanence I believe is the root of our problems in the diaspora and back home. How do we expect for peace to reign in our homelands when the money we send is haram? Playing with divorce is no joke and indeed many children maybe born in haraam way if look at it fiqh wise! Number 2 problem: absent fathers. Although if a father was concerned as to whether the source of sustanence for him and his family was halal, then most likely he would not be absent. Number 3 problem: women not respecting their husbands, thus contributing to the absent father syndrome and husbands going to more pleasant places to be, like hang out with his buddy where he'll never get criticized. please don't forget to stroke the egos of your men, they'll really appreciate it and need it from you the most. They sure as heck not going to get it from their mothers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-Lily- Posted June 9, 2009 KK There is nothing wrong with the jobs you have mentioned, (factory/airport shifts). I have a lot of respect for people who are making ends meet and supporting whole families back home. They may not have the luxury to take time off to improve their situation or by the time they do they may feel it’s too late or their responsibilities may grow. Besides, not everybody is going to be a lawyer or a doctor. As for the rest , it's easy to point the finger, I suggest everyone get their own house in order before they start b*tching about others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hassan_B Posted June 9, 2009 Lily, You're definitely right, we have to correct ourselves first and foremost. These bad things I mention, I see the closest members of my family deal with it, in the end I am responsible for only myself and not for people not under my control. Still, we need to realize our situation and express that things people are doing are not OK! and that we don't accept it! and hopefully this will translate to real action and change. Sickest thing is that dealing in fraud as become 'caadi'! it should be shamefide! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kool_Kat Posted June 9, 2009 Originally posted by -Lily-: KK There is nothing wrong with the jobs you have mentioned, (factory/airport shifts). I have a lot of respect for people who are making ends meet and supporting whole families back home. They may not have the luxury to take time off to improve their situation or by the time they do they may feel it’s too late or their responsibilities may grow. Besides, not everybody is going to be a lawyer or a doctor. I didn't say there's anything wrong with the mentions jobs...But reality is how many dhaliyo wiilal/gabdho really have families back home, who solely depend on them? Give me an insy bitsy tiny break there Lily...Many of the dhalinyaro I speak of have most of their families here, if not all...Those mentioned jobs are not a way of life, there is always an alternative... Even if we go by your logic, where everyone may not have the luxury to take time off to improve their situation, who said anything about taking time off? Do you know how easy it is nowadays to study or get a formal education, if one really wants to? Many of the schools now offer classes/courses to fit your work schedule, heck even online courses are available...But then again, that's only if one wants to better his/her situation, and to try hard...Don't get me wrong I am not saying we should all be doctors/lawyers/etc. , but I am sure everyone has something they are passionate about, why not start there? Mise working at factory/car rental/airport is passionba meesheey ku dhamaato? I sure hope not... BTW, waxa igubaya is that I am sure my people (walaaleheey Soomaaliyeed) are far more capable of having better lives, only if they tried that much harder...I want to see my people succeed, so tomorrow we can be good role models for our children, just like our parents were good examples for us when we were growing up...We are the hope for our people... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buuxo Posted June 10, 2009 Buuxo, sadex wax baad isku lifaaqday...First, single motherka system ka dhuuqaya, kuwa aan dhibka ku qabo waa kuwa very year or second year manage to have more kids...Which hadii runta la'isku sheego means odaygii isagoo joogo bey year after year after year cunug kasoo tuuroysaa! Hadeysan caruurta afford gareen karin yeysan dhalin, hadey dhalaana caruur xaaraan lagu koriyay yaanan hadhow dheef laga sugin... Second, dhalinyarada factoryga, airportka, car rentalada iyo wixii lamid ah ka shaqeeya, like I said before, if this is something they're doing on temparary basis, it is understandable...How ever, waxaan fahmi karin markey nolosha ka dhigtaan ineysan wax kale qabsan karin other than shaqooyinkaas...The opportunities far surpass the limits they put on themselves when they settle for less... Third, waalidiinta wax aan ka dhihi karo maleh, as I am sure kuligood iney nagu koriyeen to the best they could...Laakiin waa anagii inaan meesha wax ka qabsano, kana faa'iideysano fursadaha nala siiyay...Anagey tahay inaan is dhiira galino, oo aan wixii horumar ah isku caawino isuna sheegno... [/QB] KK,I get you and im not saying that cheating the system is acceptable, don't get me wrong. What amazes me is how one can sell their soul for $100 extra a month.What is causing a large numbers of somalis in the qurbaha to claim single mother status? when we all know ,most are married and year after year having children ,as you said. Ma imaan-daro baa ku kaliftey,mise beenta oo la cadeeystay mise gaajo? And who is to blame? Govt for not providing enough welfare? Individuals? We need to assess the causes ,so we can better assist our community and address these issues. Dhalinta unskilled labour ku jirona, waad ku saxsantey,it's times like these that we realise the importance having qualifications and skills that needed.Dadka isku arag ma'la and value many things.But at the end of the day ,at least they are employed by halal means and are not dependent on others . I know many dhalinyaro ,university graduates ,who worked as taxi drivers as students and when they finished went back to being tagsiile.And it wasn't because they couldn't find work,but taxi provided more flexibility.I also see a changing trend in my local town,the number of older folks in school is growing,mashalllah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuujiye Posted June 10, 2009 Is nice How you all making some great points. To me it looks like all of you are hitting on some key points and maasha allah some of you brought out some other points. However, I just want to clear something for some of you. We are not talking about what kind of a job is someone doing for a living, but what future are we building here in our new host countries. Are we here to stay and live as new citizens of the new nationalities we got now or make this as a pit stop and wait till Somalia gets better? What is our future as Somali nation in the Diasporas? The point I was making is that, instead of waiting for our country to get better, we should not freeze our lives. We should live as new citizens of the countries we migrated to and earn our livings as a citizen. We should take advantage of the system and educate our selves and get better and higher jobs. We have to ovoid living like how our parents lived as new immigrants because we have to move forward and make the path easier for the next generation. We can’t move in circles! All I’m saying is that we should stop thinking as if we are only visiting these countries but think as if we are here to live our lives. We are here to build a strong future and better lives for the future of Somalis every where they are. Every country in the world had problems and left their countries but the fact that they have worked really hard and took advantage of the opportunities that came in to their hands, they have managed to help their mother countries and became a strong united nations that learn to share their voice! In order to be someone in this world and here after you have to earn it and us Somalis have to learn that in manyways. Buuxo I agree with you and what you saying is right and I hope I made it clear here too… MMA waraa adiga waan kuu sheegay facaa reer aaaqiraad waaye loool iska dhal dhal kulahaa mukulaal maa u maleysaa hooyooyinka hada jiro? Waraa mukulaalaha xitaa hada dhaloo waa diideen oo waxaa u sabab eh ee dhaheen resection ka jiro loool… “Waxaan filayaa "Taxi Drivers" iney shaqooyinka fiic fiican kamidtahay hadii eysan KK waxba kasheegin. “ loooooooooooool nin yaaban this is why you’re my hero here in SOL lol Lily!!!!!!! Loool good to see you in here. The topic is not about the kind of Jobs we have abaayo.. xalaal quudato waaye qofkii xalaal ku shaqeysto no matter what kind of job he is holding even if he polishing shoes to support him self or his family that a person with a dignity.. I know as Somalis we think washing cars and polishing shoes is shameful jobs but that’s all because of jaahiliya and now that’s some we have learned by living in other countries.. what KK said is different.. she is not saying they shouldn’t work at places like that, but young kids who should be in school to better them selves and chase a bigger dream and goals should not be settling for any less. Again this is the circle of life a talked about loool aabahee aa evis car rental ka shaqeeye aniga caadi ee ila tahay loool.. Hassan B good points bro thanks... Wareer Badanaa!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LayZie G. Posted June 10, 2009 ^preach on brother. I urge you, Tuujiye and others to continue discussing ways to move our people forward. YOu are right, work occupation is the least of our problems. Any and all groups who migrated to Canada in the last 50 yrs all started somewhere. Long before them, the first settlers of this former colony started somewhere, out in the bushes, worked hard to turn a hostile land into a gold mine, a profitable one at that. Fast forward to the early and middle part of the 20th century and the migration of Italian-Canadians and their integration to society. They have taken all and any jobs, nothing was beneath them but they had a plan to execute and by God they did. Their job@ the cookie factory or the pasta factory secured Georgio's law school fees and secured the future of their grandchildren who are now making contribution to society and it makes Canada that much better. The point is the odd jobs then and now aren't the same as far as benefits and retirement package is concerned but that shouldn't stop anyone from climbing the ladder. Nothing is given but everything is taken, so go out there and take back Canada. Tuujiye, you maybe a bajaq jilicsan but your heart is in the right place and I couldn't be more proud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuujiye Posted June 10, 2009 ^^^ loool Thanks Layzie in kastoo ee xanuun kugu aheed in ee kaa soobaxdo but thanks lool laakiin hadakabacdi hadii wax aad amaaneysid si fiicaan u wada amaan qofka ama iska daa!!! shiiiiiidh!!! intaa nasaqar suujisay aa gadaal madaxa noogu salaaxee xaasidun waxasadaa!! anyways is good to see in kistoo caqli adigaba kugu fadhiyo maasha allah ilaahee hakuu cusleesiiyo aamino dheh! ^^ One foot in each place is not a life at all. Tuujiye sat and had a good thinking session then came up with this topic. I wonder what got him to think in the first place? I have a feeling it is one of the following: 1- He bought a house. 2- He was asked to build a house in Somalia 3- He is about to become a father 4- He got married 5- He got disappointed by Sh. Sharif's total hopelessness as a president and finally decided to call Canada home. 6- He got addicted to the coffee his local maqaxi makes and could not see himself ever going back home to live on inferrior coffee 7- All of the above. ------- Welcome to the world of sane people, Senor T. looooooooool Ngonge I didn't see this before lol.. Hey just because I come here to have fun doesn't mean I don't think of the world and life in general qashiin yahoo!!! To give u a nice Jawaab to youe questions, only one out of the 7 questions is correct and the rest is BS looool I knew Shaaq shiriif wuxuu ahaa lax bacaad lugu lisay and kii ka horeeyena wax makasugeyn lool I lost the dream of seing peaceful somalia long ago and I know I won't see it till we have new leader who will step forward leader who have wadanimo iyo wax garad in their blood. But Ngonge lol I told you before I started the topic that this isn't like me looool I don't come here to share knowledge and gain some in return I'm mostly here for qasoo iyo walwalaaqitaan!!! Wareer Badanaa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kool_Kat Posted June 11, 2009 I must've been on the same cheap shidh Tuujiye was on, when I missed MMA and Nin Yaaban's posts... Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiy aar: Nothing wrong barbaar badan la dhalo, oo dadkii dhalay u taalaa sababta u dhaleen iyo waxee u rabaan. Koriskoodana iyaga u taalaa. Ama haku koriyaan shab ama muruqooda, taas qof kale ee u taalo maleh. Dhaqan gaaleedka oo hal iyo laba la dhalaayo ma fiicno, run ahaantii. Irsaaqada Eebbe haayo, qof hadduu awoodo intuu dhalaayo ha dhalo. I never said there was anything wrong with having caruur badan...Nor did I say anee ii taala wixii lagu korin lahaa... Aboow it is not like inaa Soomaaliya joogno where villa la iska daganaa caruurta ha badnaato mise yee badnaan...Aabayaashi i meeshaan guryohoodii waa lagu kari la'yahay...Key noqoto inuu marmarsiyo ka dhigto magaalo kale aan kasoo shaqeynaa, ama kii kalo oo his time off ku dhameysto inuu donut fariisto ama jaad soo cuno bay noqdiin ragii caruurta badneed loo dhalay meeshaan...Markii labo qol ama sadex qol oo dowlad ah lagu haayo caruurta, oo abihii all day or nigh maqan yahay working at a physically demanding shaqo ah, hooyooyinkiina shabtoodha dhinac ka dhuuqooyaan oo heblo mexey tiri iyo hebel iyo heblaayaa is furay ama heblaayaa lala guursayday eykujiraan bal iisheeg caruurtaas yaa umaqan? Certainly not I! Meeshaan waa la'isku daalaa, barbaarta hala badiyo mataalo...Hooyooyink ii wax caawimaad ah mahelaan, aabayaashiina iyageyba tooda heysataa...Irsiqana ilaahaa haayo waan ogahay, laakiin ilaahay also gave us lixdeena lixaad oo uu noogu talagalay inaa wax ku qabsano, maskax aan ku fikirnona wuuna siiyay... Tan kalena dhalinyarada ku shaqeysanaayo shaqooyinkaas aad tirisay, haddee iyaga caadi u arkaan, nothing wrong with that. At least muruqooda ayee maalanoyaan, qaarkoodna ku korsanoyaan qoyskooda, making the ends meet. Some of those jobs pay good, oo saas uma xumo. Magac ahaan ha u fiirin iyo meesha laga shaqeeyo. As long as it is paying good and xalaal, waa caadi. Dad ayaa xaaraan dhex walaaqo, such as real estate agents and bankers, day in and out dealing with interests iyo usury. Those jobs dad ayaa u arko xaaraan xaaraan dhaaftay, yet at the same time same people who criticize dadka kale who earn xalaal jobs waxba kama sheegaan kuwaas because jobs like real estate and those in banking sector are 'respected.' Meesha waa in aakhiro laga fikiraa as well, adduun kaliya ma'ahee. This world beri dhamaanaa. The difference between dadkaan aadka hadloyso iyo ani waxaa waaye I believe, since I am a citizen of this great country (saan mar horena usheegay meeshaan, in boorasadaan ku imid meeshaan dhigay uga dhaqaaqay), I have the to live the life I desire...I also believe I deserve better; therefore, should live life like any other Canadian - comfortably...Laakii n dadkaan on the other hand, iyagoo citizens ah wili ufikiraayo inee qaxooti kayihiin meeshaan, and still holding on to a false hope that we will be returning to Somalia to live a peaceful life some time in the near future baan layaabaa...Wilibo iyagoo dhalinyaro ah, oo aduunka fursadaha ugu fiican heysto iska qasaarinaaya... Saan u arko the future of peaceful Somalia has passed, year after year after year (well times that by 20)...And the very sad part of it all is, as we witness today, Somalia's future isn't a bright one for many many more years to come...Marka walaalkiis, I rather hold on to what I have now and work toward a better tomorrow in my adopted country, than to hold on to a tomorrow that may never come...And if it does come, a peaceful Somalia (insha'allah), diyaar baan u ahay...In the meantime laakiin, nolosha horumarkeeda waa inaan ku daadaalno... It is very disappointing to see dhalin yaro wadankaan timid iyagoo teenagers ah, and still after some decade(s) later willing to settle to make a living working at a factory...Oh let me not forget to mention, dhalinyaro willing to settle earning a xalaal income working as a factory worker... Runta hadii la'isku sheego how much could they be making at those shaqooyin? A buck or two more than the minimum wage? Oh yea, there's a bright future there...A future to support a wife and barbaar badan oo la'iska daba keeno... Xanuun iyo niyad jab waxaa ah the limits we put on ourselves, when as they say 'the sky is the limit' for us...Sheemo ka dheh! Waxaan filayaa "Taxi Drivers" iney shaqooyinka fiic fiican kamidtahay hadii eysan KK waxba kasheegin. Nin Yaaban, looooool...Although taksiile wouldn't be wise for qof dhalin yaro ah, it is much much better than shaqooyinka kale aan ka hadlaayay...First, there's the flexiblity of it...Second, I don't know any other similar field where a hundred or two uu qofka lasoo hoydo markuu ugu qasaaro... Tuujiye, waan kuu fahmay walaalow fiiradaad meshey usocotay markaad topicgaan fureysay, laakiin xoogaa jeero angolo ee ila gashay...Waxaan intaanoo dhan u dig iyo dam lahaa adaaba iitiri, exactl word for word: The point I was making is that, instead of waiting for our country to get better, we should not freeze our lives. We should live as new citizens of the countries we migrated to and earn our livings as a citizen. We should take advantage of the system and educate our selves and get better and higher jobs. We have to ovoid living like how our parents lived as new immigrants because we have to move forward and make the path easier for the next generation. We can’t move in circles! All I’m saying is that we should stop thinking as if we are only visiting these countries but think as if we are here to live our lives. We are here to build a strong future and better lives for the future of Somalis every where they are. Every country in the world had problems and left their countries but the fact that they have worked really hard and took advantage of the opportunities that came in to their hands, they have managed to help their mother countries and became a strong united nations that learn to share their voice! In order to be someone in this world and here after you have to earn it and us Somalis have to learn that in manyways. Ani miyaa mise tarantoorahaa igo'ay? Bas meeshaas baan ugaharay circlekaan lagu noqnoqonooyo... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lt-Qalbi-Adeyg Posted June 11, 2009 I consider myself an individual, maxaa iga shaqo jiro waxey somalida sameeyaan or not. Ama ha is dilaan am ha is magaan, ama yee wax baranin, what somali people do is not a reflection of of me as an individual. We should all be more individualistic and worry about number 1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
