Muslims to pay school's legal fight to uphold niqab ban

[NGONGE]

^^^ Kimiya,

 

 

It’s all good and well to stick up for your fellow Muslims and, here, we don’t needd to do this. We are discussing it amongst ourselves, ayaayo. Don’t let it get to you.

 

The act is selfish and has/will have a bad impact on all other girls. Remember the last time we had a similar argument here and your stance that if the laws exist they should be used? What happened to the Niqab-wearing teacher? Remember the Jilbab-wearing schoolgirl? Both lost their cases (I think).

 

Was it a big shock that they both lost? Was it totally unfair and unexpected? Surely it’s just common sense. They chose to fight for a noble cause in the wrong battleground (schools)! They went against simple common sense when, in almost all cases, they did have other alternatives. Have these latest ones not heard about the ones before them?

 

It’s all about common sense and reason. Unlike the French, the Brits have not attempted to introduce laws to limit the Freedom of Expression of Muslims (not yet anyway – the control orders for terror suspects is a story of its own). So far, all the precedents that were made and came as a result of Muslim action (nay stubbornness). The laws so far did not upset reason.

 

To say ‘what can we do if someone else bans the hijab’ is to present a read herring into the argument. Surely that’s more to do with siege mentality rather than genuine analysis. Why would another organisation attempt to ban the hijab? Under what circumstances? Are their requests reasonable? Etc..

 

On the case of this 12-year-old, the Headmaster has made a reasonable request. The one before him might have used his own discretion but this one (going by reason alone) is within his rights (as a headmaster) to demand that the young girl ditch her niqaab whilst at school. You know and I know that with or without the token gesture of that Muslim organisation, this girl is going to lose her case. It’s about a school’s ability to apply rules and policies. No court will allow the girl to get away with her choice of clothing (faith aside). Where does that leave us? Another case and another loss? Hmmm! Now your red herring might come in handy and one could say: what if the actions of these girl and others before her lead some organisation to have the courage to ban the hijab? Do you follow me, ayaayo?

 

It’s not about blind support here. It’s about common-bloody-sense.

 

 

ps

Two Balls, how dare you address me in anyway, shape or form? The only balls I talk to are usually mine and even then I never do so in public. Who the hell did you think I was. War orodo magaca badal..mala yacni fooqal mala yacni..

[Laba-X]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

ps

Two Balls, how dare you address me in anyway, shape or form? The only balls I talk to are usually mine and even then I never do so in public. Who the hell did you think I was. War orodo magaca badal..mala yacni fooqal mala yacni..

hahaha Mala Yacni kutee.

 

Waar Heedhe, ileen soomaaligana wey kuhadashaa wuxu! Waa qiyaamihiiye!

[-Serenity-]

^ dhirbaaxo kulul baad u baahantahay for referring to people in the feminine as an insult. :mad:

[Laba-X]

Serenity - Iga raali noqo, saa dumarku wey dhaamaane!

 

Way iyo Way, Dumarkaan meel kaga dhacay!

[Blessed]

^You have, ama xaal soo aruuri ama bada cas ku dhex dhac.

 

NG

It’s all good and well to stick up for your fellow Muslims and, here, we don’t need to do this. We are discussing it amongst ourselves, ayaayo. Don’t let it get to you.

You misunderstood. I won’t go against the family because I agree with their stance on the uncompromising validity of niqaab and that it has a right to exist in British society.

 

The act is selfish and has/will have a bad impact on all other girls. Remember the last time we had a similar argument here and your stance that if the laws exist they should be used? What happened to the Niqab-wearing teacher? Remember the Jilbab-wearing schoolgirl? Both lost their cases (I think).

Sorry to disappoint you but Sabina, the girl didn’t lose.

 

The Teacher’s case was a bit more complicated as the Prime Minister, a Muslim MP and every Dick and Harry had something to say about it, the court passed a mixed judgment. It’s not over though and common sense will prevail, I feel it me wa’ers.

 

Get the story here;

 

http://www.education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1927251,00.html

 

On the case of this 12-year-old, the Headmaster has made a reasonable request. The one before him might have used his own discretion but this one (going by reason alone) is within his rights (as a headmaster) to demand that the young girl ditch her niqaab whilst at school.

Not if he is working under an equality of opportunity and access policies which all British schools do. You said the same with regsrds to Sabinas case and how did that end.

 

As a teenager way before Usaama, Murdoch and senile politicians confused the hell out society, I had a niqaabi classmate (and a few other girls in other departments). It wasn’t much of an issue with the college Admin; in fact teachers would go out of their way to acquaint students with the Colleges policies of tolerance and respect.

 

Currently, I work in a mixed coed British school with both male and female teachers, many of them none-Muslim and yet there is not a concern about the practicality of having niqaabi teachers (there are 3). The niqaab works in schools, this uproar and unnecessary fighting highlights deeper concerns.

 

 

It’s saddening to see a head teacher spearheading an intolerant, arrogant campaign against a child or in the Teachers case another adult. What message does this send to that girl and her peers and all British children? On a side note, I wonder if they have an anti-bullying policy.

 

 

It’s about a school’s ability to apply rules and policies. No court will allow the girl to get away with her choice of clothing (faith aside).

Exactly on the first line but you can't put faith aside, it is after all, the central policy issue here. A ban on niqaab in the school can only be passed if they change the laws and policies on religious freedoms.

[NGONGE]

^^^ Sabina lost her case.

 

The Law Lords took the view that a person's right to hold a particular religious belief was

absolute

(i.e. could not be interfered with), but that a person's right to manifest a particular religious belief was

qualified

(i.e. it could be interfered with if there was a justification).

The above is from Wiki. However you will also find it in the Law Lords' judgment (first link). This quote alone clearly answers your questions and, at the same time, questions your contention.

 

 

The current case is similar. And if it goes to court, the lawyers for the school will only use the previous cases as precedents to prove that this girl’s human rights have not been violated. I repeat to you, this is all about common sense not faith. This girl and all the others before her are not totally restricted from attending schools. They can attend anytime as long as they abide by the rules of that particular school. Furthermore, the existence of alternatives is what undermines their claim that their freedoms have been restricted!

 

Your argument, after all is said and done, seems to be: "I shall do what I want and to hell with the consequences". It’s confrontational, futile and counterproductive. Think it over, ayaayo.

[Blessed]

3 of the 5 Law Lords held that Begum's rights had not been interfered with (Lord Bingham, Lord Scott of Foscote and Lord Hoffmann), and 2 held that they had (Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead and Baroness Hale of Richmond).

All 5 agreed, however, that in this particular case there were justifiable grounds for interference, one of the grounds being to protect the rights of other female students at the school who would not wish to be pressurised into adopting a more extreme form of dress.

You were saying something about a red herring...

 

Well, the Lords decision is (unsurprisingly)disapointing. This does not only highlight the level of ignorance surrounding the islamic dress code but also a very shallow understanding of diversity of Islamic hijaab.

 

In any case, one positive result of this case is that it has started a public debate on the hijab and in Shabinas case an LEA review of its uniform policy. Not so counterproductive, eh?

 

I found the following qoute and articles interesting, was this really about hijab or extremism.

 

The school's supporters had claimed that after Begum's parents had died, she had come under the undue influence of her brother Shuweb Rahman, a supporter of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir. They also argued that if Begum was allowed to attend classes wearing jilbab, other pupils would feel under pressure to adopt stricter forms of Islamic dress.

Heh Funny

 

 

Your argument, after all is said and done, seems to be: "I shall do what I want and to hell with the consequences". It’s confrontational, futile and counterproductive. Think it over, ayaayo.

I see you’ve refashioned your analogy; did you think that I didn’t get it the first time?

 

 

I’ve already said, when you live in a so called democracy where there are protocols put in place for seeking redress one has every right to do so. I’ve already suggested that a different approach would be wiser but unlike you NG, I respect that others would take a different approach.

 

And my stance is simple. My faith is not up for compromise and seems like I’m in good company.

[NGONGE]

You were saying something about a red herring...

 

Well, the Lords decision is (unsurprisingly)disapointing. This does not only highlight the level of ignorance surrounding the islamic dress code but also a very shallow understanding of diversity of Islamic hijaab.

 

In any case, one positive result of this case is that it has started a public debate on the hijab and in Shabinas case an LEA review of its uniform policy. Not so counterproductive, eh?

The red herring you hint at was given to them by other girls in that school. So, no, it’s not a red herring at all (on their part). They made their judgment according to the evidence and grievances they received. Regardless, your whole argument was depending on the validity of the niqaab in a democratic society (something that I don’t wish to dispute or even argue. I agree). You spoke about it being productive and starting a debate on the issue! However, has that debate been beneficial so far? I refer you to Ms Begum’s case and its result. The LEA review is hardly going to go against the Law Lord’s judgment. This case was lost there and is not going to present us with anything new or useful. The most that will come from it is that girls will be allowed to wear their hijab(and shalwar khamees) in that school and other schools. Something that was there already and that the law supports.

 

On another point, you say: “This does not only highlight the level of ignorance surrounding the Islamic dress code but also a very shallow understanding of diversity of Islamic hijaab”. Isn’t that a Muslim problem rather than something to do with the Law Lords? Keep your eye on the ball, ayaayo. The case of Ms Begum would not have gone that far if the Muslims in the local community did not agree with the school and many ‘respected’ scholars did not go against her in the first place (some later changed their minds, as the Law Lords report shows).

 

I’ve already said, when you live in a so called democracy where there are protocols put in place for seeking redress one has every right to do so. I’ve already suggested that a different approach would be wiser but unlike you NG, I respect that others would take a different approach.

 

I did not question one’s right to seek redress. It’s a democracy and since the rules of the game allow one to test the waters and try to push the boundaries I see no problem with trying. However, when one loses (as has been the case with all the ones that tried so far) it does not become only their loss. Do you follow?

 

As for respecting their approach, I simply can not respect folly. They have a right to do what they like when they like and I, personally, can not stop them. However, I can tut and shake my head at their foolish actions. Here, I regard this whole furore as being extremely foolish and harmful to the Muslim community.

 

And my stance is simple. My faith is not up for compromise and seems like I’m in good company.

These are very powerful words to a very petty argument! Neither your faith nor that of all the girls in these various cases was up for compromise, ayaayo. Only if their backs were against the wall and they were forced to change their ways/beliefs would we have had to go into this idea of ‘compromising faith’ that you seem to have. In these cases, all had/have alternatives (and were presented with them), that they chose to make a stand has nothing to do with standing for their faiths and not compromising them. Though I’m sure they mistakenly believed that to be the case.

 

The final link you put in (Islamic Awakening) is quite good and I appreciate the good intentions of its signatories. However, it’s too little too late. They want a united Muslim front on this issue yet they seem unawares that in the case of Ms Begum, the headmistress WAS Muslim. The recent case of the Saudi School is of a former Muslim employee suing a Muslim school, etc.

 

Things have really gone beyond the three old men under a tree trying to find a happy solution and everyone being right. The statements made in that site, though ideal, are merely artificial and far from reality. Muslims will remain to be divided on such issues and will have squabbles in public. Some Muslims will fight absurd fights in the courts of law and drag us all down with them. Many of us will not agree with them and will feel obliged to air our views (mostly amongst ourselves rather than in articles in the press). Funnily enough, the signatories still had the sense to add point number nine in their statement (it was almost like a limp after thought).

 

It’s not all about being so moderate as to give the impression of being without any principles and not about being so defensive as to give the impression of being beyond extreme. There is such a thing called common sense and I fear that in all those cases it really was not utilised.

 

Ps

I enjoyed reading the Boris Johnson piece. He’s a bumbling old bigot but, oh, he writes so well.

On a side note, don’t let the xenophobia and anti-Muslim views of the British media cloud your judgments on Muslim issues. It’s not an Us and Them here (on this forum), it’s an Us and Us, ayaayo.