Somalis are not good people.

[AbdillahiSamatar]

I include myself in this equation because I am a product of a culture that has failed. My transformation only occurred once I came to the U.K as a small child because my parents could not face the horrors of 1991; in fact we left much sooner once the North started getting bombed by SNA troops in 1988. I do not fundamentally share much in common with Somalis other than ethnicity which I cannot change. But my values and temperament are not what you would call a product of a Somali culture. Somalis to me are not logical but hyper emotional and this makes them dangerous to any civilised person. Group think is something that comes naturally to humans where a charismatic leader can pull his people in a certain direction. While this maybe productive in a logical society like the west, it can be very destructive in an emotional one free from the constrains of a conscience.

In the west if this episode had happened to them they would be writing books about it, making documentaries, and trying to find out why something like this happened to begin with. They would not be satisfied until an answer was found. Of course the west would not allow the episode to reach such a boiling point to begin with. As each step of the way allows for an opportunity to fix the issue at hand. And Somalis as a whole failed to fix the issues at hand at every step of the way. So what is at the root of this problem that cannot seem to find a solution? I believe Somalis at their fundamental core are not good decent people who fear Allah. This is why most of them fled not to a Muslim country (their fellow Muslims refused to take them in) but to the infidel west and became beggars asking for handouts because it was the easy answer. Brave honest people fight for the betterment of their nation and not run away like cowards. This is who we are and all the clan talk and false pride is not going to change this simple truth. We have failed beyond anything a normal crises could produce, how is this possible? Simple we are not good people and I will even go as far to say that we were never really a good people with common sense to begin with. Our culture produces bad people pretending to be good, which explains the shit show called Somalia today. 

If Somalia has another civil war it will be because the culture is trying to update itself and throw off the useless primitive and unproductive mentality that currently exist in Somalia. If not then the country already belongs to Al-shabaab just like Afghanistan already belongs to the Taliban. 

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

In my 22 years of foruming (yes started in 1997 in high school), in every few years, I come across a thread like this posted by a holier-than-thou dude, born and bred in some forsaken land outside Soomaaliya. The self-hate, thinly disguised as constructive self-criticism of community-wide, isn't that hard not to see.

Folks like this eventually come to their senses and stop generalizing all Soomaalis. 

[maakhiri1]

Abdullahi, 

It is very east to talk problems, do you have solutions?

[galbeedi]

The kid gas some points but will answer later.

[Aroori]

9 hours ago, Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar said:

Folks like this eventually come to their senses and stop generalizing all Soomaalis.

Yes, generalization is never good, but he makes very good points I'd like you to respond to rather than the slap in the hand -naughty kid- reply.

@AbdillahiSamatar

The vast majority -- 95%+ -- of Somalis worship a demigod called Ina-adeer like Qureish's Hubal, Allaat & Uzza. This in my opinion is the root of all Somali problems, all other issue both internal and external are minuscule and almost irrelevant in comparison. To a person who have never lived in Somalia, specially folks who were raised in the ideals of the west, the concept might seem incomprehensible if not outright alien. Such a person might've read some books on tribalism/sectarianism, or might have seen it in practice in a limited manner in their local pockets of Somali diaspora, or even exercise it to relate to their people. but they'll never feel or understand the full societal impact and toll of tribalism on the Somali people.

Somalis are not inherently bad, no human innately is. but our societal structure, norms and traditions - which worked ok in the precolonial era - are not entirely compatible with the way of living in the modern world, those traditions as of late have been bastardized, raped and sodomized to transform into a rotten shell of their former self, becoming a hindrance rather than a help to move the society forward.   

You said if such an episode happened in a different society, they'll write and reflect to come up with solutions and mover forward. Yes you are correct, but in the context of modern "geeljire" society, there is no single arbiter of truth, everyone and their tribe has - in the famous words of one Kellyann Conway- their own truth or rather an "alternative to it". Who is going to write a book and point to reasons for and culprits of failure? which tribe does the author belong to? Will other tribes mentioned in such literature accept and critique in a civilized manner to refute or accept such claims? The answer is a resounding NO, everything in the somaliverse follows tribal reasoning, their tribe is the one and the only, they are laandheere while all others are inferior and quit frankly are conspired against all the time (talk of paranoia man ).

There is hope for the Somali people, but it'll take many more generations and probably circumstances outside of the control of Somalis to get rid of tribalism and usher a new age. Climate change in the near future might impose an unforgiving policy of adapt - as in progress and modernize to survive as a society - or perish.

My 2¢.

[maakhiri1]

Abdullahi has every reason to ask these questions and I doubt it is about self hate. He can exclude himself from Somalis and go his way, doing nothing to do with Somalis but took time to be on Somali forum.

For me I believe the biggest problem are resources,  every one ,and every tribe is flighting to steal meagre resources.  They don't have patience to wait and let country prosper. And cycle continues. 

What is more amazing how many not even aware  what we can become. 

[AbdillahiSamatar]

10 hours ago, maakhiri1 said:

Abdullahi, 

It is very east to talk problems, do you have solutions?

The culture need to be updated, Somalis are in desperate need of new ideas. He cannot move forward until we acknowledge our current culture is too crude and does not work. Its like a machine that is broken, we can replace the parts or we can build a new machine that will not break down so easily. When I say Somalis are not good people I do mean the product we call Somali culture does not produce good people but very bad people pretending to be good. This is why when a crises hits the best people who can solve the problem for the collective as pushed aside for emotional & irrational voices calling for war. Why? This point has to be studied and unearth to find out.

We have no code system of what a Somali does and does not do. Clans are not much of a challenge if Somali culture produces a code system where we understand what it means to be Somalis. I propose that this code be based on logic and not emotions.

1 hour ago, maakhiri1 said:

For me I believe the biggest problem are resources,  every one ,and every tribe is flighting to steal meagre resources.  They don't have patience to wait and let country prosper. And cycle continues. 

Again I believe these are symptoms of a much larger issue. Poverty, tribalism, narcissism, religious intolerance are all products of a failed culture. We do not have clean people who can stand up with integrity and speak the truth without being killed for it. Our culture does not produce clean people I am sure they may exist but they did not get their integrity from a Somali culture they would most likely have learnt it in the west via work or study. 

12 hours ago, Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar said:

In my 22 years of foruming (yes started in 1997 in high school), in every few years, I come across a thread like this posted by a holier-than-thou dude, born and bred in some forsaken land outside Soomaaliya. The self-hate, thinly disguised as constructive self-criticism of community-wide, isn't that hard not to see.

Folks like this eventually come to their senses and stop generalizing all Soomaalis. 

I do not claim to have all the answers but I do now if we has Somali people are going to move forward form this episode then we are going to have to come to terms with our backward culture. There is no sugar coating this reality, and honest good people ask questions until an answer is found. And we need to know why.

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

It is not about dhaqanka Soomaalida that is bad; it is some aspects of qabyaalad - fueled by geeljirenimo (nomadism) - that needs some reform. Malaay (kaluun) dhaqato, beeraleey (farmers) and trained ironsmiths in Soomaaliya do not behave as nomads do, who usually make their deegaan lama degaan, which extends to their winner-takes-all political views. They also think shaxaad/ina'adeernimo is an honourable ways to earn income.

By nomads, I specifically mean geeljire, not village-based sedentary lo'jire or ari'jire life.

By the way, welcome to the forum. If my previous post seemed like it was hard on you, my bad. I did not intend it to be that way.

[Arafaat]

On 7/8/2021 at 1:11 PM, AbdillahiSamatar said:

We have no code system of what a Somali does and does not do. Clans are not much of a challenge if Somali culture produces a code system where we understand what it means to be Somalis. I propose that this code be based on logic and not emotions.

Somali’s did have a form of a social contract or ‘code’ that established how people live together in society, and how one behaved towards another and these codes (Xeer)  often formed the basis upon which traditional elders (Saladiin) governed and regulated communal life and interaction, based on moral principles as seeking consensus and solutions (Xal), and even selection of those whose wisdom one sought was based on proper representative selection (Xul). When two parties had a dispute third parties not involved in the conflict would often send an diplomatic mission to mediate between warring parties (Ergo), and in the Somali social contract refusing their mediation was considered a deadly sin, ‘Ergo diid wa nabad diid’.

Unfortunately the Somali social contract which was practised by Somali’s for thousands of years, became an unintentional victim of the drive to modernize, emulate others and mimic a modern Nation State. None of it has been incooperated in the adopted modern governance framework, we adopted a trias politica that was developed by others and was a good solutions for those who saw it as a solution in their context, their background and for their problems. And we must admit that this modern governance and legal model hasn’t quite worked well for the Somali people, and we need to ask our selves what does work for us, what has worked in the past and how we could make things work in the future.

i am not an expert in Somali traditions and culture, and hopefully some who have more knowledge on this subject can further shed light on Somali traditional governance and codes that regulated communal life. Maybe then we can enlighten ourselves further on how some of this could be used in the modern urbanized life and the modern Nation State, I am sure we can still adopt and adapt It to make it fit and workable for the Somali’s. 

[Arafaat]

On 7/7/2021 at 3:33 PM, AbdillahiSamatar said:

In the west if this episode had happened to them they would be writing books about it, making documentaries, and trying to find out why something like this happened to begin with. They would not be satisfied until an answer was found. Of course the west would not allow the episode to reach such a boiling point to begin with. As each step of the way allows for an opportunity to fix the issue at hand. And Somalis as a whole failed to fix the issues at hand at every step of the way. So what is at the root of this problem that cannot seem to find a solution? I

The west had its fair share of conflict and went through nearly 1000 years of conflict and disputes between rulers and fiefdoms in the medieval times often referred to as the ‘Dark Ages’.
 

One of the solutions that has worked for the west in limiting powerful tyranny and introduced the rule of law was the ‘Magna Charta’, which in many ways pointed the way to the emergence of parliamentary government and the ‘trias politica’, on which modern Nation states and governance are modeled after. It worked perfectly for the west, and for many other countries to emulate this model but it hasn’t worked quite well for Somali’s, and the reason is not because we don’t have a code, but on the contrary it hasn’t worked well for us, because we had a very strong cultural code or contract that we simply tried to bury and reinvent ourselves which didn’t work, as our culture is not easily changeable overnight. 

Lastly, you are definitely right that we haven’t asked ourselves the right questions and for pointing out to the absurdity of current status quo. 

[AbdillahiSamatar]

On 7/12/2021 at 3:32 AM, Arafaat said:

Somali’s did have a form of a social contract or ‘code’ that established how people live together in society, and how one behaved towards another and these codes (Xeer)  often formed the basis upon which traditional elders (Saladiin) governed and regulated communal life and interaction, based on moral principles as seeking consensus and solutions (Xal), and even selection of those whose wisdom one sought was based on proper representative selection (Xul). When two parties had a dispute third parties not involved in the conflict would often send an diplomatic mission to mediate between warring parties (Ergo), and in the Somali social contract refusing their mediation was considered a deadly sin, ‘Ergo diid wa nabad diid’.

Unfortunately the Somali social contract which was practised by Somali’s for thousands of years, became an unintentional victim of the drive to modernize, emulate others and mimic a modern Nation State. None of it has been incooperated in the adopted modern governance framework, we adopted a trias politica that was developed by others and was a good solutions for those who saw it as a solution in their context, their background and for their problems. And we must admit that this modern governance and legal model hasn’t quite worked well for the Somali people, and we need to ask our selves what does work for us, what has worked in the past and how we could make things work in the future.

i am not an expert in Somali traditions and culture, and hopefully some who have more knowledge on this subject can further shed light on Somali traditional governance and codes that regulated communal life. Maybe then we can enlighten ourselves further on how some of this could be used in the modern urbanized life and the modern Nation State, I am sure we can still adopt and adapt It to make it fit and workable for the Somali’s. 

This Xeer system was not strong enough to withstand the crises Somalis faced. If a system requires the good will of its participants then it is not a system at all. Somalis need a strict code that works in every situation including when in the west otherwise people will do what they want without concern. There also has to be a penalty with those that break the code not capital punishment but a societal shunning of said individual as people recognise this is not Somali behaviour. This would keep Somali character clean and free from poison that tends to destroy trust. Our values have to be best on logic or otherwise we will fall into muddled thinking and emotional blackmail...clan kin asking you to join a fight because it is "right" but who can say if it is going to lead to a constructive outcome...only logic can determine that fact and not emotions.

Imagine if Aideed's clan rallied against him and Ali Mehdi's clan did the same. The clan elders spoke with one voice and told the young men to save Mogadishu and refuse to fight in the Warlord wars? You can see these warlords would lose power and the city would be saved. This also gives rational voices an opportunity to think up constructive means of political solutions rather than emotional rhetoric. Somalis would have saved themselves from doom. Do you see how integrity is rewarded? How fruitful logic can be and aid a culture in making the "right" choices. With the success of logical thinking over a time period your confidence grows and you stop making the wrong choices. If emotions take over then anything can happen including "shocking" and inhumane atrocities that will make its citizens unable to stop ruminating over the deaths of clan kin and repeat the cycle of revenge over & over. This is Somalia current problem because of the actions of the past warlords Somalis cannot stop ruminating over the past which prevents meaningful discussion on matters that are important to the nation. With logic we have the benefit of clear thinking; free from emotions and a plan of how to better the nation even in the face of oceans of problems. 

[AbdillahiSamatar]

The Art of Logic by Eugenia Cheng is a very good book. If you have 50 minutes to spare her google talk goes into detail how clear thinking can change outcomes.

 

[Arafaat]

10 hours ago, AbdillahiSamatar said:

This Xeer system was not strong enough to withstand the crises Somalis faced. If a system requires the good will of its participants then it is not a system at all. Somalis need a strict code that works in every situation including when in the west otherwise people will do what they want without concern. There also has to be a penalty with those that break the code not capital punishment but a societal shunning of said individual as people recognise this is not Somali behaviour. This would keep Somali character clean and free from poison that tends to destroy trust. Our values have to be best on logic or otherwise we will fall into muddled thinking and emotional blackmail...clan kin asking you to join a fight because it is "right" but who can say if it is going to lead to a constructive outcome...only logic can determine that fact and not emotions.

The traditional governance system or Xeer system was disrupted by colonialism through the imposition of artificial local, regional and National boundaries, European judicial systems and centralised governance.

Add to the transformation from a rural to urban economy, leading to increased urbanisation and emergence of an urban elite, leading to marginalisation of the rural population, and further enforcing collusion between the urbanized political elites and the strategic interests of external actors, who both want a modern, centralised judicial and governance system. 

Xeer system was quite strong, and it’s still influencing much of communal rural and pastoral life, while in many other African countries there are no traces left of their traditional and pre-colonial systems. 

[maakhiri1]

Xeer system and other traditional can not save us now, and could not fix our issues in last 30 years. The way out is easy, no need to re-invent the wheel, it is simple democracy, but people have given how it works, and the process must be lead by trustable people who have the good intentions of this country at heart. Not people want to gerrymander their way, not people like Farmaajo who somehow wanted to give himself a head start in the race, People will see it thru miles away.

There is no room for Geeljire mentality, 

Many countries have come out hell and worse positions, famine, war ,and religious fighting and prospered through democracy, and it is the only best form of governance so far humans developed.

 

And in democratic system, that is very successful, I noticed the most important part,  after security,  is the justice system, Spend more money on justice, judges with high salary, so they can not be corrupted, and NOBODY above the  law,  some countries judges get more money than MPS, Ministers etc

See how much money struggling countries spend on justice, and how much developed countries spend on it. see how much money is in budget for ministry of Justice in Somalia, Puntland, SL etc

See how much power and importance in Attorney General in US.

[Arafaat]

13 hours ago, maakhiri1 said:

Xeer system and other traditional can not save us now, and could not fix our issues in last 30 years. The way out is easy, no need to re-invent the wheel, it is simple democracy, but people have given how it works, and the process must be lead by trustable people who have the good intentions of this country at heart. Not people want to gerrymander their way, not people like Farmaajo who somehow wanted to give himself a head start in the race, People will see it thru miles away.

1) Nobody has tried to incorporate the traditional social contract in the modern governance, except for Somaliland during the period of reconciliation in the 90’s. 
 

2) Nobody is saying we should ditch democracy or a government system, but Abdillahi rightly pointed out to the lack of a common understanding and the lack of a social contract or code of how Somali’s should live with each other which is a basic necessity or fundament to make a Nation State work. Just hoping to get a good leader through a casino like ‘election’ process, and then hoping that person could fix everything without taking in to account what works and what doesn’t work, and what might possibly work, is sheer  naivety.