London Underground Explosions

[Haddad]

Originally posted by Zephyrine:

We have the choice of making it unequivocally clear that such indiscriminate killings are unacceptable to those

Muslims

who think its an option...

And the making it unequivocally clear is supposed to change something? If it won't change something, it would make sense to conserve the energy.

[Saabir]

If a shallow,long post makes one look smart, Ngonge is one.

[Paragon]

I wonder if discusions such as this yield any benefits, since rigidly pre-tuned views are bound to remain as they were. Views are taken out of boxes, are compared, and then repacked, unchanged . Be sincere and willing to compromise your stances, nomads. That is, if the hours spent here, discussing matters like this were expected to become a good investment.

 

W/Salaam

[shyhem]

Originally posted by Saabir:

If a shallow,long post makes one look smart, Ngonge is one.

LOOOl

[FARIID]

AS the news of the bomb attacks came I was filled with anger at the bombing of innocent commuters making their way to work. Some people in this forum hint at the fact that the British had it coming by following dim-wit Bush on his 'democratising' crusade. That argument my dear nomads, holds no water. The Blair Government and their supporters were not hurt in these attacks. It was innocent civilians most of whom took part in the million match against the war in Iraq.

 

I was equally appalled by the swift condemnation of the attacks by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). The idea that Muslims have to apologise for every terrorist attack as if they were all complicit in this action is as repugnant as the attacks themselves. This apology, I think has largely fixed in the mindset of people that Muslims were responsible- remember no suspects, leads, or arrest made. For all we know it could be the IRA, the Anarchists in town for the G8, or even the French considering that they are bad losers. The MCB doesn't need to make a statement at least not that quickly. The Catholics, Anglicans, socialists, and Jews didn't make statements why did they. The position of Muslims is clear: we do not support in any way terrorist attacks. No need for statements, if anyone is in doubt read the authentic Islamic books. It even gave Blair an opportunity to come with the patronising ' most muslims are law abiding..... blah blah'. I think it would have been hard for Blair to bring in the Muslim issue here, had one of us not jumped the gun.

[-Lily-]

All I can say is God protect us from the enemy within, the ones who claim to be Muslims in their desparate attempts to search for some kind of life-transcending sick glory.

 

I missed one of those trains by mins, had I gone

the other way I would have most certainly been on the King's Cross train. Im glad I was late.

[Faarax-Brawn]

^Surely Thank ALLAH!: The Most Merciful

[Valenteenah.]

Fariid,

 

I get what you're saying, but there is a difference between condemning something and apologising for it. I dont believe The Council apologised.

 

 

But you are all right about one thing...there's no point in arguing about this since a solution isn't fortcoming.

[Kashafa]

Two quotes,people

 

Ngonge,up first

 

There were civilian casualties during the invasion (surprisingly kept to a minimum though

Iraqbodycount.net, next

 

This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase PRIOR to May 1st 2003.

Now that's raw statistics. To be fair, I must add the human element. That is seven thousand three hundred and fifty men, woman, children of your brethen(assuming you're muslim) killed(justifiably, in your opinion, correct me if I'm wrong). Not by radical savage ferocious suicide bombing terrorists, but by Uncle Sam and John Bull.

 

Do you still consider that to be "suprisingly minimum ? If not, what would be an acceptable number that 'civvilised' people could live with.

 

For some reason, I happen to think that your "Iraq/Afghan war is justified" statement is more of a dumb comment you wrote right after the blasts. You were rattled, angry and needed to blow steam off. Now, we all make dumb statements, but we usually retract them. You're digging your heels in and arguing a insane position. To top it off, you say something like this:

 

the war in Afghanistan was justified because of the attacks on New York and the fact that the groups that made those attacks was said to be based in that country!

Wars do not start because "it was said to be"..or "somebody said so". Gulf War 1 did not start because Saddam was 'said to be' in Kuwait. It started because his tanks were cruising in Kuwait City.

 

For arguement's sake, let's assume the "it was said to be" claim is valid. How does that justify attacking Afghanistan ? There is no evidence whatsoever linking the Taliban to 9/11. NONE. The Americans needed to strike out because they were badly humiliated. and they did so because they could. Might is Right. Very similar to Bubba Clinton ordering air strikes after the Embassy bombings in East Africa. Target: Pharmacetuical factory in Sudan. Ego boosted, Stars and Stripes avenged. Mission accomplished.

At the same time, sane people would agree it was nothing more than plain aggression.

 

If you honestly think that the Iraq and Afghanistan war is even remotely justifiable, open a new thread and give specific information to back up your argument. "it was said so" just doesn't cut it.

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Saabir:

If a shallow,long post makes one look smart, Ngonge is one.

Was that the sum total of your opinion on this topic, saaxib?

 

 

Papa513,

 

I’ve written three long (some say shallow) posts on this topic already. They cover all that you ask for and more. Read them, ponder them and return with a worthwhile argument. This business of my brethren in Iraq or Afghanistan is nothing but a tasteless distraction, which I will not stoop into addressing.

 

FARIID,

 

Don’t you see the ghastly humour in this situation and the resulting arguments, saaxib?

When it comes to acts of terror that were carried out by Muslims, we angrily reject any calls for an apology! “We are not responsible for the actions of the few crazy Muslims†is our loudly shouted defence!

When war is waged on Muslims or acts of terror are carried out against them, we all, also angrily denounce such acts and talk about how all Muslims are like one body (you know the rest of the saying)...

 

 

Worth pondering, wouldn’t you say?

 

I don’t know about your sensibilities, but, any minute now, I’m expecting a bright soul to wade into this discussion with yet another of those dim-witted conspiracy theories and blame the whole thing on Israel or even Mozambique!

 

 

Zeph,

 

One can’t look for a solution to a problem that once refuses to acknowledge, dear. Those that commit such acts are only a minority (they might not even be real). We can’t possibly let the actions of a minority force us into looking for a solution.

[bilan]

Originally posted by Athena:

Secondly, as for those hesitant in condemning the London bombings and camouflaging their real opinions with subtle words like ‘frown upon’ – be true and say what it is you want to say. ‘Frowning upon something’ means disliking it YET finding it ACCEPTABLE. These cowardly acts against the civilian population of London are UNACCEPTABLE and should be CONDEMNED. Being concerned about a backlash against Muslims alone is selfish and shows the divided mentality in addressing this issue. Seems to me like we are willing to tolerate it as long as it causes us no harm. We(Muslims and non-muslims alike) should stand united and strong against terrorism.

as someone who lived through 9/11, i really can say i know what it means to face the hatred and suspecious looks from your neighbors,at your local super market, and from your coworkers,so if you've being there and seen it you would not accuse us for being selfish, because we are concerned about the backlash. when things like this happens muslims share anxiety, shock, and confussion with everyone else;but also everyone else will blame them for what happened eventhough they're victims like everyone else,so any muslim who believes what officials say,or not afraid or concerned about backlash they are either fooling themselves or they live fantasy world.

[Castro]

Was that the sum total of your opinion on this topic, saaxib?

Brother Ngonge, it's over now. You eloquently made your (tough to swallow) point. Many came but a few accepted it. That is often more than anyone could ask for. Now let it be.

 

It's Friday night, go out and hit the town (chase tail or something). If married, take the wifey to dinner. Have a nice glass of wine. Puff on a cuban cigar. Kick back. Relax.

 

Peace.

 

P.S. I assure you there will be more bombings here, there and everywhere. Until then, life goes on.

[Legend of Zu]

I cant be bothered reading what was said in every post but I got the drift...sayin that let me share with you this article written by a muslim brotha...I think it paints the pic of the two sides here... Enjoy

 

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/a-muslim-house-divided/2005/07/08/1120704557107.html

 

Cheers

[LANDER]

First of all it's good to hear all of you are safe. It is only natural most are a little edgy in an effort to make sense of these tragedies. Anytime such an event takes place so close to home people's survival instincts seem to kick in and at times it seems that what we perceived as being our reality crumbles before us and we are exposed to a whole different kind of realism we only had previously heard of but never experienced. Also, the emotional baggage that goes along with this sort of sudden change which can distort our outlook if we do not tame it in one way or another. That being said, I think we should try to keep these events in perspective under rather difficult circumstances. By that, I mean the world has changed very little in the past 72 hours even though, to some it might seem like an avalanche of change and hence the reason why they seem to be running around like headless chickens who's nerve endings have yet to give in. But there are a few realities that haven't changed since immediately before the London bombings and the moment right after them. I am not here to justify, condemn or otherwise explain any geo-political situations but rather just to remind folks what we all know and maybe seem to forget in moments of hysteria.

 

-The United Kingdom is a country at War

 

I know seems kind of obvious don't it? But seems a lot of people forget this simple little fact. They all would acknowledge that Iraq is at war because after all we see the events on TV, but in the UK what signs of war are there? Virtually none thus far and it will likely continue to be that way aside from this isolated incident. So this is what usually leads us to overlook certain facts. Fact is in most wars there are “non-combatant†casualties, the innocence and whether the events where deliberate or accidental is beside the point, our perspective should be that these events do take place and should be expected as an actuality of war. The Farax who commutes to work everyday via the underground in London and, the Xabibi who drives his rusty ‘85 toyota tercel cab as a means of work everyday in the streets of Baghdad can both be potential victims of this war. Whether it's just or unjust is irrelevant to that reality.

[- Femme -]

Originally posted by LANDER:

The United Kingdom is a country at War

I know seems kind of obvious don't it? But seems a lot of people forget this simple little fact. They all would acknowledge that Iraq is at war because after all we see the events on TV, but in the UK what signs of war are there? Virtually none thus far and it will likely continue to be that way aside from this isolated incident. So this is what usually leads us to overlook certain facts. Fact is in most wars there are “non-combatant†casualties, the innocence and whether the events where deliberate or accidental is beside the point, our perspective should be that these events do take place and should be expected as an actuality of war. The Farax who commutes to work everyday via the underground in London and, the Xabibi who drives his rusty ‘85 toyota tercel cab as a means of work everyday in the streets of Baghdad can both be potential victims of this war. Whether it's just or unjust is irrelevant to that reality.

Gosh you are so right....I was a little surprised by the mass hysteria also after the shock of the event itself. I'm sorry, but to me...37 people isnt alot compared to the attention given. Believe whatever you want..but Britian had it coming.