Why not Believe? Reasons for Agnosticism/Atheism and Why Islam is Right?

[Khalaf]

Salaamu Alaykum, I put this in general section due to the larger audience, and more viewpoints inshallah. I don’t know bout yall but many ppl I come across at uni/work are doubters and don’t follow organized religion as they call it, and good friends too na mean. Here are the main reasons for their doubts (the doubters here can add to this list). Some on da list is laughable i know. Its not about convincing/guiding ppl, that is not in our hands (as Muslims), but logically/intellectually countering these popular views and proving/showing why Islam is the right path. Brothers/Sister fadlan contribute intelligently wit evidence, interested in how to reach/explain to those who doubt.

 

Main Reasons (most dont pretain to Islam, hopeing JB n Cara can add to this list and tell us at once why they being raised Muslim as they claim no longer believe in Islam, how/when/why? no mocking fadlan (JB) but a sincere understanding/discussion:)

 

Multiple Gods and Religious Traditions:

It is difficult to credit any one religion as being True or any one god as being True when there have been so many throughout human history. None appears to have any greater claim to being more credible or reliable than any other. Why Christianity and not Judaism? Why Islam and not Hinduism? Why monotheism and not polytheism? Every position has had its defenders, all as ardent as those in other traditions. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

 

Contradictory Characteristics in Gods:

Theists often claim that their gods are perfect beings; they describe gods, however, in contradictory and incoherent ways. Numerous characteristics are attributed to their gods, some of which are impossible and some combinations of which are impossible. As described, it's unlikely or impossible for these gods to exist. This doesn't mean that no god could possibly exist, just that the ones theists claim to believe in don't.

 

Religion is Self-Contradictory:

No religion is perfectly consistent when it comes to doctrines, ideas, and history. Every ideology, philosophy, and cultural tradition has inconsistencies and contradictions, so this shouldn't be surprising — but other ideologies and traditions aren't alleged to be divinely created or divinely sanctioned systems for following the wishes of a god. The state of religion in the world today is more consistent with the premise that they are man-made institutions.

 

Gods Are Too Similar to Believers:

A few cultures, like ancient Greece, have postulated gods which appear to be as natural as human beings, but in general gods are supernatural. This means that they are fundamentally different from human beings or anything on earth. Despite this, however, theists consistently describe their gods in ways that make the supernatural appear almost mundane. Gods share so many characteristics with humans that it has been argued that gods were made in the image of man.

 

Gods Just Don't Matter:

Theism means believing in the existence of at least one god, not that one necessarily cares much about any gods. In practice, though, theists typically place a great deal of importance on their god and insist that it and what it wants are the most important things a person can be concerned with. Depending upon the nature of a god, however, this isn't necessarily true. It's not obvious that the existence or desires of gods should matter to us.

 

Gods and Believers Behave Immorally:

In most religions, gods are supposed to be the source of all morality. For most believers, their religion represents an institution for promoting perfect morality. In reality, though, religions are responsible for widespread immorality and gods have characteristics or histories which make them worse than the most vile human serial killer. No one would tolerate such behavior on the part of a person, but when with a god it all becomes laudable — even an example to follow

 

Evil in the World:

Closely associated with taking action that should be considered immoral is the fact that there is so much evil in the world today. If there are any gods, why don't they act to eliminate it? The absence of substantive action against evil would be consistent with the existence of evil or at least indifferent gods, which is not impossible, but few people believe in such gods. Most claim that their gods are loving and powerful; the suffering on Earth makes their existence implausible.

 

Faith is Unreliable:

A common characteristic of both theism and religion is their reliance on faith: belief in the existence of god and in the truth of religious doctrines is neither founded upon nor defended by logic, reason, evidence, or science. Instead, people are supposed to have faith — a position they wouldn’t consciously adopt with just about any other issue. Faith, though, is an unreliable guide to reality or means for acquiring knowledge

 

Life is Material, not Supernatural:

Most religions say that life is much more than the flesh and matter we see around us. In addition, there is supposed to be some sort of spiritual or supernatural realm behind it all and that our "true selves" is spiritual, not material. All evidence, though, points to life being a purely natural phenomenon. All evidence indicates that who we really are — our selves — is material and dependent upon the workings of the brain. If this is so, religious and theistic doctrines are wrong

 

There is No Good Reason to Bother Believing:

Perhaps the most basic reason for not believing in any gods is the absence of good reasons for doing so. The above are decent reasons for not believing and for questioning — and eventually leaving — whatever theistic and religious beliefs a person might have had in the past. Once a person gets beyond the bias in favor of belief, though, they may realize something critical: the burden of support lies with those claiming that belief is rational and/or necessary. Believers fail to meet this burden, though, and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims.

 

source

[Cara.]

Main Reasons (most dont pretain to Islam)

Actually they all do. But I think the most convincing reason for me is the last one. Someone once put it this way: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far I've heard a fair bit of extraordinary claims, but have not seen matching evidence.

[Khalaf]

^^^I disagree with that notion, most of those reasons if not all dont pretain to Islam. but before we get into that (not sure um the one to do this nor do i want to honestly would like the more knowledge bros/sisters to take the lead inshallah), but i am interested if u can share with us ur background (as a muslim back then) since u say u were raised and once was a Muslim right, ur decision to reject belief in God? remember from an islamic prespective since u were once muslim. imagine we were at Saafri Express resturant in MN, having lunch and having this talk?

[Cara.]

I don't talk religion or politics at mealtimes, it's bad for the digestion

 

And I don't want to give you my "background", Khalaf. I don't believe it will serve any purpose since you have fixed ideas about what I am, and no amount of me spilling my lifestory on these pages will change that.

 

If you want to leave a relevant discussion of the points you raised to more capable hands, then why did you even bring it up? Seems like you're saying that you can't refute those points, but you hope someone else can

[Khalaf]

Yaaa cara don’t listen to hype, nothing is more interesting then religion iyo politics during conversations makes it dat more interesting nooh.

 

Cara u have the wrong idea about me and I suspose religious minded ppl in general, I have no fixed ideas about u, nor do I wish u harm or hell as u may think, I wish u the best of khayr which I do believe is of course Islam.

 

I believe as Muslim it is Allah Alone that guides whom He Wills and sends astray Whom He Wills, marka it is not my agenda to “convert” u, all I want is to understand. as ive said I have agonistic/atheist friends and its much easier to converse on personal level since this is about convictions/faith or lack thereof wit someone face to face then I suppose on forum. I think its only fair if we want sincere discussion and understanding between all of us, to know for once your background as a once upon a time Muslim, how u used to believe back then and what made u come to ur current conclusions now. The discussion (not a debate remember) has no value in my view if one end (religious end) only preaches w/out understanding the personal stance/background of the other end. For example to provide solutions (as u challenge) to any situation you most know the (level) of the subject in which u are dealing with. We thus far do not know about ur views on Islam and ur believes as a once muslim. Its only fair don’t u think?

 

As for more capable hands, as Muslim I am quite scared of making mistakes in matter of deen, that is why my way has always been taking the roles of two friends having a discussion about certain issues. Inshallah u will be a willing participate yaa Cara, remember discussion not a debate. and inshallah others will add to this disscussion.

 

good nite

[Naden]

Khalaf,

 

Of the reasons you've listed, which one is most laughable in your view? The thing about matters of belief and conviction, little changes when people hold opposing views.

 

Sidenote: Is is just me or is there a rash of yaa placed in front of names? It's spreading like mono in a public high school.

[Cara.]

^I blame Xiin, he has been doing that for a bit. But what seems like a harmless affectation from a respected elder is a little jarring coming from a pup

 

Khalaf, I'm just not too keen on doing a reverse conversion story They are repetitive and tedious. Just take the long-story-short version: I know a bit about Islam, I was once a fairly devout Muslim, I no longer subscribe to it, but consider it a perfectly nice religion for those who like that sort of thing.

[Caano Geel]

Poor Cara and JB, you've become the lab rats

[Changed]

"I no longer subscribe to it,"

 

 

LOL. this makes me think of magazine subscribtion that expired...lol Istaqfurullah this is definately not supposed to be funny but it cracks me up....

 

Khalaf ever heard of "lakum dinakum waliya dinII"

"to you be your religion and to me my religion"

 

ALLah guides those he wants to guide, and Allah made it clear so bro leave them alone. Their personal life should be theirs and to them their religion.

[Legend of Zu]

Originally posted by Cara:

^I blame Xiin, he has been doing that for a bit. But what seems like a harmless affectation from a respected elder is a little jarring coming from a pup

 

Khalaf, I'm just not too keen on doing a reverse conversion story

They are repetitive and tedious. Just take the long-story-short version: I know a bit about Islam, I was once a fairly devout Muslim, I no longer subscribe to it, but consider it a perfectly nice religion for those who like that sort of thing.

Cara while you politely declined the invitation you couldn't help but to conclude with a throw-in line demeaning the religion eh'!

 

Changed dude it is not waliya diinak - it is "Waliya Diinii"

 

Cheers

[Changed]

^^ THANKS DUDE...AMA CORRECT RIGHT AWAY..LOL

[N.O.R.F]

Pronounced: 'Lakum diinukum waliya diin without the 'i'.

 

As for the topic, well erm,,,

[Alle-ubaahne]

Originally posted by Cara:

I don't talk religion or politics at mealtimes, it's bad for the digestion

 

And I don't want to give you my "background", Khalaf. I don't believe it will serve any purpose since you have fixed ideas about what I am, and no amount of me spilling my lifestory on these pages will change that.

 

If you want to leave a relevant discussion of the points you raised to more capable hands, then why did you even bring it up? Seems like you're saying that you can't refute those points, but you hope someone else can

I am sure Cara is not anti-Islam, nor rejects Islam for not seeing a 'convincing evidence' but she is saying I will love Islam when I get the man of my life that will make me love Islam.

 

This lady is in need of someone oo diinta dhankeeda usoo shukaamiya. For women of her type, religious shukaansi matters to safe their lives!

 

Cara, I have a man for you, sister. Don't reject this final offer, the evidence of Islam for you to believe in for life. Come on, don't hesitate, Eedo jalaqsan! lol

[Fabregas]

lollllllllllll........ bal eega wadaadki wuxuu ku hadlay.......

[Khalaf]

"Of the reasons you've listed, which one is most laughable in your view? The thing about matters of belief and conviction, little changes when people hold opposing views."

 

Naden all those reasons (with the exception of why there is evil in the world-dis is understandable,) are laughable, in particular looking at those reasons (which are the building blocks of atheism/agnostism of the Christian/Jewish backgrounds) in the light of the Quranic perspective. Mida Kale My objective in this topic was not to change anything or anyone that’s not my way or in my hands, but for once on an important topic to have an honest discussion, not a debate going in circles where cats put on their ear plugs singing blah blah blah but a real dialogue, understanding between the two parties, this can only happen if we are all willing to honestly participate and not put up a wall. It has been tried before, but failed because the discussion focused more on discrediting, outdebating, your opponent then understanding, listening, and reasoning with each other sincerely. Can that be done?, lets find out um sure most probably think its not worth the effort talking to those who doubt and our own good brother Nur (come back yaa akhi) the most knowledgeable person here has tried this before to no avail. But with do respect to him (since I know atheists/agonist ppl) he went about it the wrong way.

 

Objective for this topic (and I hope Nur returns, and more knowledge nomads then I participate) is two:

 

1. Yaa Cara lets meet each other half way. U know when school starts the 1st month is the introduction to the subject at hand and familiarizing yourself with the subject. U always ask and off the bat for proof (baam! that’s like going straight into the mid-terms), inshallah we shall do that, dissect the atheist/agonstic reasoning one by one, but since the religious side makes the effort to answer your questions its only fair don’t u think not to put on your ear plugs n also participate and likewise answer their questions? Um not asking your “lifestory”, but your reasoning to go from once a fairy devout Muslim as u say to reject Islam all together. Tell us: how u understood/(knowledge of) about the Islamic belief system in particular your view of the Creator-Allah as a Muslim back then, and why u decided one day Islam was not right? Not your one liners on hard to rationalize "da gods" supernatural as u often say, but take us back and take us inside the head of "Muslim Cara." I think that is fair request to first ask before we proceed, if indeed you are honest here.

 

2. I have listed the main reasons for agonistic/atheistic stance, let the Muslim Nomads here inshallah counter those reasoning one by one with Quranic Proofs/Answers. Remember its not about convincing people, but showing to the world why Islam Alone is haaq. Can that be done yaa jamcatal islaamiya?

 

Sidenote: Yaa before name/noun ect is an Arabic thing, not xiinow.....one can learn a lot from xiin..........a word I did pick up from xiin tho is the saying of adeer, makes me feel like a odey-garaad :cool: .......Xiin adeer take part in this topic fadlan, and the other knowledgeable brothers/sisters.........if u do think its “fruitful disucussion”....or maybe its better to say lakum diinukum waliya diin.