Feminism, ideas, recipes, family values?

-Serenity- · May 13, 2005

*Mustâ€¦.resistâ€¦.urgeâ€¦toâ€¦loose temperâ€¦. *

UD,

Youâ€™re contradicting yourself beyond belief. On one note,

the truth is the truth regardless of the source... If an alcoholic murderer tells you to pray 5 times a day, does it give his message any less meaning

And another

But do you disagree that a non-practising (not implying you) Islamic woman should not attempt to discuss matter relating to Feminism and the Islamic woman?

So youâ€™re saying that a non-practising muslim woman ( try not to come back at me personally with another deplorable all time low response assuming things about me, this is your term, not mine) has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women? Your argument is clearly weak and illogical whichever way you look at it. For discussions are means to gain understanding. On this board, you donâ€™t know who prays and who doesnâ€™t and you equally have no right questioning people on the subject.

Please stop trying to manipulate the words of others to make yourself look and feel better. That really is unislamic and grossly repulsive. What also is very UnIslamic is people who have the least understanding of the religion trying and taking that holier-than-thou attitude with the rest just to force their twisted take.

Senora · May 13, 2005

So youâ€™re saying that a non-practising muslim woman ( try not to come back at me personally with another deplorable all time low response assuming things about me, this is your term, not mine) has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women?

But an alcoholic murderer can give Islamic advice? :confused:

Your hypocricy has amazed me as well? :eek: Using some of your own words UD...

Regardless of the source...does the message these "non-practicing muslim women" send when discussing matters relating to Feminism and Islamic Women have any less of a significance???

**a bit annoyed with someone's obvious detestation against so many of our Somali Women**

underdog · May 13, 2005

Amethyst,

There's no contradiction...I see a very clear line between being advised by a hypocrite and being represented by one.

And I'm increasingly astonished by how you and Phanta always deflect issues. This isn't about me looking or feeling better, and I have nothing to gain in trying to "manipulate the words of others".

This is neither about me or you. The core matter is the qualifications needed to speak on behalf of something you don't practice. If you do practise the religion as you should, then there is nothing to be offended by.

So youâ€™re saying that a non-practising muslim woman ( try not to come back at me personally with another deplorable all time low response assuming things about me, this is your term, not mine) has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women?

Yes I am saying "non-practising" muslim woman has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women. How can she? She doesn't know what it means to be Muslim. She may have an idea, but she doesn't live it. Is that what you find weak and illogical?

People do things for a reason. She has her reasons for not praying or wearing a hijab (too busy, thinks its old fashioned, wuduu dries up her skin, blah blah blah, etc, etc), thats her issue between her and Allah.

If YOU make the sacrifice and overcome the obstacles and live your diin, how fair is it to YOU to have someone like that speak and tell you what you SHOULD do?

p.s. I haven't claimed to be holier-than-thou... and asking "what's your take on this?" shouldn't be answered with "how dare you ask?"

Saalixa · May 13, 2005

Amethyst

I agree with you on some points but sis wouldn't you love to have an exclusive, hassle free section dedicated only to Female matters rather than the rubbish some of the male superstitious brothers write of somali girls not respecting their culture and religion (supposedly to them).

Wouldn't you love a section where the female members have a better knowlegde and understanding of the status and roles and muslim women today in the west without interruption and male disagreements. Ongoing debates and learning as some people feel more comfortable discussing certain issues within thier own female parameters. It is like going to your GP and it is a she, would you in your right mind rather see a male doctar given they both have similar experiences and qualifications?

Valenteenah. · May 13, 2005

Yes I am saying "non-practising" muslim woman has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women. How can she? She doesn't know what it means to be Muslim. She may have an idea, but she doesn't live it.

UD, that may well be true, but is it your place to decide who has a right to discuss these issues and who doesn't? For example, you are male, therefore, do you have a right to discuss matters relating to Islamic women?

I'm sure you would say yes. Well, in the same vein I believe anyone has the right to speak of what they feel matters to them. The notion that a girl can't speak of issues that relate directly to her as a muslim woman, because she doesn't wear the hijab, or doesn't pray is plain wrong. Whether she prays or not is not ur concern. You won't be the one taking the punishment for her in Akhira.

I'm surprised at the decisive way you express your opinion (opinion being the operative word). As though it is YOU who decides. It isnt.

If someone says the Shahada, they are Muslim. Anything else they may do or as in this case *not* do, is a matter between them and their creator and not you.

You may feel you have the right to dictate but I sure DON'T. I'm afraid am not privy to such super-powers (altho I wouldn't mind).

In any case I don't see what any of this has to do with the original topic. What exactly do you have a problem with? That some of us didn't like the caption of the women's forum? Or because we requested it to be changed? Or is it something completely unrelated?

Good-Credit · May 13, 2005

someone in this thread reminds me with this *****

underdog · May 13, 2005

Phanta,

I'm sorry you decided to ignore

People do things for a reason. She has her reasons for not praying or wearing a hijab (too busy, thinks its old fashioned, wuduu dries up her skin, blah blah blah, etc, etc), thats her issue between her and Allah.

I'm not a Muslim woman and contarty to your assumption I can't speak for women matters in Islam. I can't be a mouth peice for Muslim women.

and at NO POINT HAVE I DEMANDED YOU OR ANY OTHER WOMAN HERE TO DO ANYTHING.

I asked a question about representation, in EVERY POST i've made in this topic which has been IGNORED over and over again. I haven't named names and i haven't pointed a finger and specific...yet I'm

judgemental or one-dimensional

Manipulator of words

a hypocrite

FOR WHAT?

The notion that a girl can't speak of issues that relate directly to her as a muslim woman, because she doesn't wear the hijab, or doesn't pray is plain wrong.

What makes her a Muslim? heritage? name?

- Femme - · May 13, 2005

I asked a question about representation, in EVERY POST i've made in this topic which has been IGNORED over and over again

Haye...Inshallah i'll try to answer it to the best of my ability.

the truth is the truth regardless of the source... If an alcoholic murderer tells you to pray 5 times a day, does it give his message any less meaning?

No(that is if one was able to ignore the state of the drunkard & his ramblings...just just be able to focus soley on the message without any bias & disgust 4 the drunkard)...but honestly would someone who ignored the message from credible & reliable sources pay attention to a hypocrites preachings?

a non-practising Islamic woman should not attempt to discuss matter relating to Feminism and the Islamic woman? Do you feel she's qualified if she a hard time sticking to the basic requirements such as Salah and Hijab? Thats my line of questioning..

She can do what she pleases...whether or not she would be taken seriously or paid attention to is entirely up to the audience.

There's no contradiction...I see a very clear line between being advised by a hypocrite and being represented by one.

What do u mean represented? Who are u talking about anyway?

The core matter is the qualifications needed to speak on behalf of something you don't practice. If you do practise the religion as you should, then there is nothing to be offended by.

Yes I am saying "non-practising" muslim woman has no right to discuss issues relating to the Islamic women

Im not aware of u referng to specific person...so im assuming that ur talking about the girls in SOL talking about islamic issues pertaining to women and such...where does one's practice of their religion come into the discussion? How are u able to tell from one's post whether or not they are qualified to speak of these issues?

What makes her a Muslim? heritage? name?

Maybe we should take islamic nicknames eh? :rolleyes: You know the answer to the q...u don't have to ask.

-Serenity- · May 13, 2005

UnderDog,

Who exactly do you know here to be "non practicing muslim woman"? Who are you trying to prevent from having a discussion? Is there a difference to you between a discussion and a representation? Lets get clear cuz you make me sick with your assumptions and insinuations.

The core matter is the qualifications needed to speak on behalf

of something you don't practice.

Who are you referring to? Who on this thread do you know to lack the "qualification". From the start of this discussion, you have argued from the assumed premise that Phanta and then I dont have the right qualification to speak on the subjects at hand. Otherwisse who are you talking to? Dont insult our intelligence. I take offences against my blf very seriously.

Let me enlighten you brother, for you simply lack either the knowledge or the ettiquette of a proper muslim.

Allah, the Exalted, says:

"And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.'' (33:58)

1560. Abu Dharr (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying, "When any Muslim accuses another Muslim of sin or of disbelief, the reproach rebounds upon the one who utters it, if the other person is not deserving of it.''

[Al-Bukhari].

Commentary: What this Hadith stresses is that one should never say about a Muslim that he is sinful (Fasiq) or disbeliever (Kafir) when he is not so. The reason is that in that case, one who says it, will be held Fasiq or Kafir. One should, therefore, strictly refrain from uttering such statements.

1561. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "When two persons indulge in abusing each other, the beginner will be the sinner so long as the oppressed does not transgress the limits.''

[Muslim].

Commentary: This Hadith tells us that if a Muslim abuses another and says unfair things about him and in return the recipient also abuses him and says unfair things to the same extent, then the entire burden of sin of abusing would lie with the person who initiated the quarrel. But if the one who is wronged, exceeds the limits in revenge, then he will also be guilty to the degree of his excess. Thus, this Hadith shows that although revenge is permissible in Islam, it is better to forgive and bear the excess with patience. The reason behind this is that in revenge, one usually exceeds the limits and becomes an aggressor. Allah says: "And verily, whosoever shows patience and forgives, that would truly be from the things recommended by Allah.'' (42:43).

I hope you reflect on the above and stop accusing and undermining the sisters constantly by insinuating things you dont know. I find your approach offensive most of the time but even more so when you try and question the beleifs of those you dont know for the simple reason you dont agree with them. I'm goin to take leave of this thread. I feel like I'm doing myself injustice by indulging you further.

[edit]Rayaana, seeing as it is sis, maybe we should. I dont mind if this is what all the girls want. I was only asking if there was a real valid reason. But I think we just figured that out.

underdog · May 13, 2005

....and half way thru that rant I was hoping you'd make a reference to where I specified which person(s) I was refering to.

you have argued from the assumed premise that Phanta and then I dont have the right qualification to speak on the subjects at hand.

WHERE?

maybe you just enjoy being a victim and automatically apply every comment to yourself.

if I'm walking down the street and someone yells "PEDOPHILE" I don't know about you, but I automatically know they're not talking to or about me.

Since you chose to single yourself out and shoulder the load, maybe you know something I don't. (and again thats between you and your creator)

1561. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "When two persons indulge in abusing each other, the beginner will be the sinner so long as the oppressed does not transgress the limits.''

[Muslim].

Go back to the beginning and re-analyse the situation cause the only time I refered to anyone specifically is Phanta as defensive aggression.

"When any Muslim accuses another Muslim of sin or of disbelief, the reproach rebounds upon the one who utters it, if the other person is not deserving of it.''

Incase you missed it....

...if the other person is not deserving of it.''

If the guy/girl doesn't pray, what claim does he/she have to the diin?

It's clearly impossible to have a conversation with someone who searches for faults in every word... May Allah guide you and I both.

p.s.

FF,

You're a breath of fresh air...I'm getting thristy from nonsense flying around here. let me get a glass of water and I'll get back to you on your questions.

Valenteenah. · May 13, 2005

I'm such a DITZ sometimes! Here I was wracking my brain, trying to figure out why UD was shooting indiscriminately from the hips, when it just hit me!