Sayyid Posted February 7, 2006 it may be obvious but I'm just gonna ask anyways. Do you belong to Takfiir group? What or who is takfiir group? I don't belong to any group I am just a muslim who beliefs in the divine doctrine and laws of Allaah the exalted. I am only saying what is obvious and for all to see. According to the vast ulamaa'uddin past and present shia's and rafidah are out of the fold of islaam in other words they're not muslim! According to Shaykhul Islaam ibnu Taymiyyah any group the rejects aspects of this religion or who bring innovations into this religion, whether they be small or big have truelly disbeliefed! “Any group of people that rebels against a single precept of the clear and reliably transmitted prescripts of Islam has to be fought, according to the leading scholars of Islam, even if the members of the group pronounce the Islamic confession of faith. If such people make a public formal confession of their faith, but, at the same time, refuse to carry out the five daily prayers, then it is obligatory to fight them. If they refuse to pay the religious zakaat-tax, it is obligatory to fight them until they do so. Similarly, if they refuse to keep the fast of the month of Ramadan or to perform the Pilgrimage to Mecca, and similarly if they refuse to forbid abominations or adultery or gambling or wine or anything else that is forbidden by the laws of Islam. Similarly [they have to be fought and killed] if they refuse to apply the judgment of the Book and the Example of the Prophet to matters of life and property, or merchandise and commodities of any kind. Similarly [they have to be fought and killed] if they refuse to compel what is good and to prohibit what is bad, or refuse to fight the infidels until they surrender to the Muslims and humbly pay the poll tax. Similarly if they introduce innovations that are contrary to the Book and the Example of the Apostle and that are not consistent with the example of the pious forefathers, like introducing deviant opinions concerning the names of God or verses from the Koran.†Now it's up for everyone to make up their minds! Where are the knowlegdeable people who know something about rafidah and shiaism and their evil intentions towards muslims. I was not me who said that shias are not muslim but I take my advice from the very well respected ulaama of the past and present and what they said about this kufr of shiaism and disbelief. We should wake up and realise who this people are that we're so proud of calling our brethren and "fellow muslims". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 7, 2006 Salamz, Sayid, Allah yahdeeka saxib! Its this hate for other muslims that has divided and craved up the ummah! You are preaching tafreeq and secterianism and spread poison. The shaytan loves to spread hatred among the believers because hatred and secterianism is contrary to TAWHID/UNITY. In anycase, concentrate on the good and what is khayr inshallah because we are often persuaded by our nafuus/selfs to see the BAD in others. Time tells the best tale! Fi Amanillah. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sayyid Posted February 7, 2006 The shaytan loves to spread hatred among the believers because hatred and secterianism is contrary to TAWHID/UNITY. Among the believers, so you think that shias/rafidah are believers, don't talk nonsense! It is very well documented what and who shias are and certainly we don't need to unite with them because we have nothing in common. I hope you got the idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sincere Posted February 7, 2006 Brother Sayid, since your adamant in labeling people "miskin†and “ignorant†and "lacking knowledge", why don’t you enlighten us with your vast wisdom. Politely mind you, not with the flagrant ad hominem attacks you have thus far portrayed. I hope that’s not to much to ask. They're kaafirs and disbeliefers who believe in alien doctrine and dogma of that of Islam. People have to weak up and see the reality Wrong. They are your muslim brothers. The Theological and practical differences from mainstream Islam does not justify nor constitute you branding them “disbelievers†and “kafirs†Kyar, brother im impressed by your passive tone in this thread. Forgive me, I couldnt help it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DraGon Posted February 7, 2006 This guy needs some serious help. This is the kind of cancer that is destroying Islam from within. With people like this do we need enemies??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Socod_badne Posted February 7, 2006 Sayid, Shias are muslims irrespective of whatever Islamic school of thought pronounces. As we all know there are as many Islamic sects as there are muslim majority nations (I believe there are around 30 muslim nations, give or take few). Along with the accompanying diverse and oft competing schools of thoughts and interpretations. In this exigency their views, who is and isn't a muslim, is not reliable enough to render some groups nonmuslims. After all it would perverse to suggest their branding is bias free. Every sect views itself practicing the perferct version of Islam and all others practicing abberant versions. So, is it then reasonable to take their verdicts as authoritative? Final? Add to the mix the lack of recognised central authority in Islam, like Vatican and Pope with Catholicism, and you got a free-for-all bonanza where every sect -- and there are alot -- is branding every other Kafirs, apostastes, heretics and the whole shebang. The way I see it anyone who professes the Shahada is a muslim. Can one be a muslim without believing one true God and Mohammed (scw) being his messanger? One would be hard-pressed to find ANY muslims who do. Hence, a good litmus test for any muslim should be the profession Shahada. Of course professing the Shahada alone doesn't fullfil all your Islamic obligation. But it doesn't negate your faith in Islam either. Only renders your faith incomplete, lacking... if a muslim only professes the Shahada but doesn't or does infrequently: prayers, paying Zakat, fasting etc. That muslim would only be lagging in his religious duties! From my limited understanding of Shiasm, shirking profession of Shahada is not included (I could be wrong!). For this reason, among others, Shias are muslims in my view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sayyid Posted February 7, 2006 I do not have any authority whatsoever labelling someone a kaafir. I get my beliefs from the Quran, the Sunnah of the prophet peace be upon him, the sahaba and the righteous tabiciin. The vast majority of the scholors of this great religion have made the decision to condemn the followers of the rafidah and shias as unbelievers. They have the knowledge, wisdom and understanding that we do not have. Whoever comes up with innovations, shirk and falsehood has truely disbeliefed. Before going further let's remind us what the great scholors of Islam said about the rafidah/shia sect: What Do Scholars of the Past and Present say about Shia (Rafidah)? 1) Imam Ash-Shafi'i: On one occasion Imam Shafi'ee said concerning the Shia, "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi* Shia." and on another occasion he said; "Narrate knowledge from everyone you meet except for the Raafidi* Shia, because they invent ahaadeeth and adopt them as part of their religion." (Minhaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah) *(Some shia at the time of the Alid Imam Zayd ibn 'Ali demanded that he make a declaration of innocence (tabarra) from whoever disagreed with 'Ali's right to be Imaam. When Zayd refused, they rejected him, and became known as the "Raafida" or rejectors. Those who followed Imaam Zayd became known as Zaydis, and have very little difference from mainstream Islam. The Raafidi evolved into the the various Imaami shia sects, the largest of which is the Ithna 'Ashari.) 2) Imam Abu Haneefah: It is reported that often Imam Abu Hanifah used to repeat the following statement about the Raafidi Shia; "Whoever doubts whether they are disbelievers has himself committed disbelief." 3) Imam Malik: Once when asked about the Raafidi Shia, Imam Malik said; "Do not speak to them or narrate from them, for surely they are liars." During one of Imam Malik's classes, it was mentioned that the raafidi Shia curse the sahaba. Imam Malik recited the verse, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and those with him are harsh with the disbelievers and gentle among themselves. So that the disbelievers may become enraged with them." (48:29) He then said, "Whoever becomes enraged when the Sahâbah are mentioned is the one about whom the verse speaks." (Tafseer al-Qurtubi) 4) Imam Ibn al- MUBAARAK: was reported to have said "Religion is gained from Ahl al-Hadeeth, scholastic theology, and crafty exemptions from religious ordinances from Ahl-ar-ray and lies from the Raafidite Shi'ites. 5) Abu Zur'ah ar-Razi: He said of the raafidi Shia doctrine of cursing the Sahâbah, "If you see someone degrade any of the companions of the Prophet SAWS know that he is a disbeliever. Because the Prophet SAWS was real, what he brought was the truth and all of it was conveyed to us by way of the Sahâbah. What those disbelievers wish to do is cast doubt on the reliability of our narrators in order to invalidate the Qur'an and Sunnah. Thus the disbelievers are the ones most deserving of defamation." 6) Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi: During the period of Muslim rule in Spain, Imam Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm would often debate with the Catholic priests about their religious texts. He brought before them evidence of textual distortions in the Bible and the loss of the original manuscripts. When they replied by pointing out the Shia claims that the Qur'an has been distorted and altered, Ibn Hazm informed them that Shia claims were not valid evidence because the Shia were not themselves Muslims. 7) Imam Al-Alusi: He declared the raafidi Shia disbelievers because of their defamation of the Sahaba. His position was based on the rulings of Imam Malik and other scholars. In response to their claim to be followers of the Ahl al-Bayt (the Prophet's SAWS family) Al-Alusi said, "No, they are really followers of the devils and the Ahl al-Bayt are innocent of them." 8) Muhammad Rasheed Rida: This scholar was among those who worked sincerely for rapproachment between the shia and the sunni, and they in turn pretended moderation for his benefit. However, in the midst of his efforts, they caught him by surprise by presenting him with a number of their books which slander Islam. He then replied in a paper called As-Sunnah wa Ash-Shia in which he exposed their false doctrines and idolatrous practices. 9) Dr. Hilali: After living close to the shia for some years, the famous Moroccan scholar, Dr. Hilali wrote a paper on them in which he declared them to be disbelievers. 10) Abul-A'la Maududi: wrote an introduction to the book, "Ar-Riddah bain al-Ams wa al-Yaum" In it was written, regarding the Imami Ja'fari Shia, "despite their moderate views (relative to other shi'ia sects), they are swimming in disbelief like white bloodcells in blood or like fish in water." 11) Among the other contemporary scholars who have expressed similar views are: Sheikh Abdul 'Aziz ibn Baz, Sheikh Nassiruddin Al-Albaanee, Allama Ash-Shanqiti, Sheikh An-Nashashibi, Imam Ahmad Ameen, and Dr. Rashaad Salim. One other Imami Shia doctrine that must be related is the doctrine of Taqiyyah, or dissimulation, (i.e. calculated deception). In support of this doctrine of deception, the shia attribute the following to Abu Abdullah (Ja'far as-Sadiq): "Nine tenths of religion is taqiyyah(dissimulation), hence one who does not dissimulate has no religion." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.110) "He who conceals his religion has saved it, and he who makes it public has destroyed it." "A believer who does not dissimulate is like a body without a head." (Tafseer al-Askari) "Mix with them (i.e.non-shia) externally but oppose them internally." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.116) Concerning the verse, "Verily the most noble of you in Allah's sight is the most God-fearing(atqaakum)" , the shia attribute the following interpretation of "atqaakum": "That is, your deeds done by taqiyyah(dissimulation) (Al-I'tiqadat) It is interesting to contrast this doctrine of calculated deception with Allah's statement in the Holy Qur'an: "Surely those who hide from people the clear proofs and guidance, which we clarified in the Book (Qur'an), will be cursed by Allah and all those who curse." (2:159) And the statement of the Prophet (SAWS) who said: "Whoever is asked for knowledge and conceals it will have a bridle of fire around his neck on the Day of Judgement." (Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi) I should stress that not all who are called shi'ia hold to these deviant and idolatrous beliefs. As mentioned earlier, the Zaydi Shia hold no real differences of Aqeedah, but only the political position that the Caliph should be from the descendants of 'Ali. The scholors even forbidded praying salat behind a shia because that would violate your salat. Can you pray behind a "cow" worshipping Hindu? I guess the answer is obvious. Shia's have got a different kalimah than the rest of the muslims. We say that there is no other deity to worship except Allaah the glorified and that Muhammed peace be upon him is his messengr. What do the shias say: They mix kufr and shirk with the kalimah by adding that Ali (may Allaah the glorified be pleased with him) is the Wali of Allaah and that the late Khomeni is the Ruux of Allaah. Is that not sufficient proof of their kufr and misguidedness! This is an endless debate because partly of the "false" belief that all "muslims" should unite whereas it is clear that we could not unite with shirk! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Socod_badne Posted February 7, 2006 Sayid, Can you be a muslim and not profess the Shahada? If no, then ANYONE who professes the Shahada can be considered a muslim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedSea Posted February 7, 2006 Originally posted by Say(y)id Qutb: Iranians can say what they want, as they are not muslims ! ASSALAMU CALAYKUM, Brother pardon me but you may not have the right to judge a whole nation that identifies itself as a Muslim nation. By any means though wouldn't you rather support the decision of someone who says I am Muslim than a total non Muslim in this case. I stand 100% behind their decision to not trade with those who insulted our beloved prophet. Assalamu Calaykum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 7, 2006 Salamz, All I can see in this thread is how the shaytan has turned an issue of Islamic Pride into sectarianism (by one individual). I say Ignore Sayid and close this thread. I was just watching news about muslim reactions around the world, and I saw sunnis, shias, salafis,sufis, maliasians, iranians, indians,arabs, talk of somalians etc. come out and protest all in unite under the SHAHADA, which TIES US ALL and especially the personality of the RASUL (salallahu caliyhe wasilm). I can not recall a single moment in ALL MY LIFE wherein the whole UMMAH was UNITED on an issue such as the one that has arisen the past few weeks. I have seen nonhijabis coming out in support for the rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) honor, the Modern muslim coming out in support of the rasul's (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) honor etc... Walahi, it brings hope and reassurance inshallah, that all is not lost, interms of the Collective Iman of the Ummah. Fi Amanillah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking Posted February 7, 2006 Qutb, Who made you the judge? If they were non-Muslims, why are they allowed to perform the Hajj? No one here agrees with your views, but hey, you always have the option of accusing them of having "affiliations" with Iran. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checkmate Posted February 7, 2006 We (yes, I am speaking for everyone) really don’t have the time and the tolerance to read your shenanigans Mr.Sayyid Qutb. Definition of Muslim? One who submits to Allah, a follower of Islam. Now I would like to kind ask you to reflect on these questions: Who do shia’s pray to? Who do shia’s women wear the hijab for? Who do they fast for in the holy month of ramadaan? Why do they pay zakat? If you have answered one of these questions to Allah, then saxiib, you have committed a great sin and it’s you who should repent and forgiveness. When I said you were not a [M]uslim, I said it to prove a point and furthermore, I saying it so don’t denounce you otherwise. The same goes for the Iranians as well. Enjoy your morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sayyid Posted February 7, 2006 Sincere, why don't be sincere and true to yourself to acknowledge that international rafidah and Iran are kaafirs! You say that "theological" and "practical" differences (whatever it means) do not give me the right to label them with disbelief and kufr. Can I ask you then, what this theological differences are. May I ellaborate. Shias believe in something called "Al-Aqeedatu Badaa", which basically means that something has surfaced that "Allaah" did not know about, that's why he has to change the destiny of qadr because he has suddenly in the last minute realised something he did not knew about! This is blantant kufr. They say that "something surfaced" that Allaah did not knew about. Do you agree with that aqeedah! We should distance ourselves from such a false doctrine. Allaah knows everything and nothing is hidden from him! They also belief that all the sahabs and muslims rejected Islam after the death of the prophet except for Salmaan Al -faarsi, Miqdaad and Abu Dharr. Do you believe that! Everyone who hates the sahabah or says something unappriopriate has truely disbeliefed. ------- Dragon the real cancer is muslims not realising who their enemies are. Shias know that we are their enemies! please educate yourself about their doctrine before "hugging and embracing" everyone that disguises himself as a muslim! ---------------- Socod_Badne, I will not debate with you because from what I've seen so far from you, you really don't deserve to be debated with. I saw a post that you made a couple of years ago, where you were saying that "muslims" don't need to unite because we don't need unity, so please stop playing "shias" are muslim + unity card! May Allaah guide you to the right path but it is quite apparent for all of us to see that you hold grouch against muslims and islam. i am not saying that you're a hypocrite but how you come across paints a bleak picture! Your beliefs are yours and mine are mine, let leave it that way! I will never ever indugle into a religious debate with you. I hope you get that. ----------- Red Sea, I am not "judging" anyone but I've strong belief that countries like Iran are not muslims because the majority of them belong to the rafidah/shia religion, which is totally alien to Islaam. You see atleast the kaafirs show their hatred for as the Rawafid stab the muslims in the back. It is people like you who are disillusioned and think that we should unite with everything and everyone that say's "I am a muslim". --------------- Khayr, Walaal I will respond to your post, the time aad iska daysid seeflaboodnimada. You suffer from something I've noticed, which is that you "feel" somehow threatened by the sight of others discussing aspects of the religion. Somehow you feel that someone has transgressed in a territory "you" were suppossed to "control". I can see from you shakingness that you're someone, who belongs to the a new phenomena of persons who think that they've "finished" and studied everything in this religion. Would you please control yourself, it would do you good! ------------ Viking, no one made me the judge but people can judge people from their actions because Allaah the glorified has given us "common-sense" to distinguish what is "right" and "wrong". You ask why rafidi'shiatees are allowed to perform the hajj. The question is simple, although the majority of the ulama said that they're not "muslim" however they continue coming to the hajj. Remember when Sheikh Ali Abdurahman Al-Xudayfi, who is the khateeb and Imaam of the prophets mosque in Madinah said in one of his friday speeches that "Rawafid + Shias" are kaafirs and disbelievers whilst the iranian ambassador was in the congregation. The Sheikh who is regarded as a Caalim was arrested because the iranian ambassador complained to the Saudi authorities. It was this guys who stole the xajratul-aswad and did not return it for a couple of years! Are they muslims? We would be better off without them coming to the Hajj because all they do is "steal" from other muslims during the hajj because they think that it is a good thing to do! ----------- Checkmate, please do me a favour and be silent. There is no excuse for you labelling me a "disbeliever" and because of your stubborness you refuse to appologise and repent to Allaah. Shias are disbelievers because of their actions and aqaaid. Their books have been exposed and there is no hiding from the truth. Muslims are blinded by "unity" etc. Unity is the best thing and muslims should unite but not with kufr and disbelief! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Castro Posted February 7, 2006 ^ This should be familiar territory for you: are you a bloody Jew? Are you paid by a Zionist organization to divide Muslims (starting with SOL)? Won't you answer that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maf Kees Posted February 7, 2006 Sayid, you have a lot on your mind. Take a break or something. Shias are not muslims? War Acudubileyso. They follow the Arkanul Ihsan, Arkanul Iman and Arkanul Islam. How can they not be muslim? No reply please, just think about your actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
