LayZie G: Putting the Burka issue to bed

[Sherban Shabeel]

I don't agree with the motivations behind this ban, I don't agree with the ban on wearing the full veil on public transport.

 

But I do agree that women should show their face at the bank, at the airport, and anywhere else where it is necessary to show your face.

 

If it was up to me, I'd say, wear it on the street, wear it wherever you like, but show your face in situations when that would be required.

 

If they banned hiding your face in Montreal, my alter-ego the Snow Touareg would die.

[Sherban Shabeel]

Here's a nifty little visual description of various styles of headscarves. Gotta love the BBC!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

[LayZie G.]

First thing is first, thank you for the kind words. Samir iyo aamiin allah naga siiyo. Inta dhimatay allah u naxariisto, inta noolna allah u gargaaro, aamiin.

 

LOL@

Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you?

Ibti, no 'buts' or 'ifs' or 'lets just say'. First you must ask yourself the tough questions and ask your subjects these very same questions.(answering a question with a question will not work)

 

Matter of fact, demand that they ask themselves the tough questions. (you have 30 strong women). Other than that, I don't do hypothetical, I deal with the 'now'.(we dont have much to discuss here if you do not want to challenge yourself or your subjects)

 

You say 'you come from a research background', and I recognized it early on to be the simple truth, which is why I told you numerous times why I think you are the best person to tackle this issue with your 30 women but you must first challenge yourself before you challenge your subjects. Besides, you did not do your actual thesis on the burka and its impact on Muslim women, nor did you share any scholarly material thats upto date or provide statistical studies , instead, you shared your views, which you based on your interactions with the said women in your life as well as using the verses from the Qur'an to strengthen the argument that covering up could mean for some as more than a clothing(which was not a strong argument at all) and it could potentially mean for some that this simple act or the representation of it brings them closer to God, which is why they decided to follow this path in the first place.(not proven at all )

 

I told you that it wasn't as black and white as you make it ought to be and that there is potential here and that you needed to explore it. You just want to limit your understanding of the subject and accept any answer that agrees with "IBTI's position".

You did not question the reasons nor do you question yourself as to why you accept a simple answer as, I do it as a sign of religious observance, etc.

 

I have to be honest Ibti, not only do you come across as being irritant with the course this subject has taken but its almost as thought you want to just take people's words as truth and dismiss the opposition by using Allah as leverage.

 

Remember, human beings are biased. You are biased, I'm biased, the said women are biased, thats why its our job to find out why people say what they say, how they say it and what role does outside influence play on their decision making but failure to grasp this simple fact will lead us and this subject a place where we can not turn back time.

 

 

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock....

[Napoleon]

Naago hadal badanaa. No wonder it takes them so long to decide what to wear.

[Cara.]

^Children should be seen and not heard. In your case, we'll skip the seeing too.

 

Layzie dear, you should consider that someday YOU might decide to wear the burkha. Maybe on the day you cut off your nose to spite your face?

 

Really, Ibti has been extremely patient and accommodating but alas I don't have her disposition. You have presented not one single argument for a blanket ban on the burkha, either theological or secular. Clearly you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, without even true conviction to back up your misguided position. If you have even one sincere thought in your head, let's hear it or quit wasting everyone's time!

[ailamos]

If they banned hiding your face in Montreal, my alter-ego the Snow Touareg would die.

hahahahaha...

 

Layzie dear, you should consider that someday YOU might decide to wear the burkha. Maybe on the day you cut off your nose to spite your face?

The burkha police has arrived... a bit of a despotic statement don't you think?

[ailamos]

I agree with Sherban's statement:

 

But I do agree that women should show their face at the bank, at the airport, and anywhere else where it is necessary to show your face.

 

If it was up to me, I'd say, wear it on the street, wear it wherever you like, but show your face in situations when that would be required.

France's complete burkha ban is an infringement on a woman's individual liberty, the same way that imposing the burkha on all women is an infringement.

 

People should be given the choice whether to burkha-up or not. A real choice, not a sugar-coated one. And in certain circumstances, like Sherban mentioned above, it is vital to see a person's face.

[Napoleon]

Cara

 

And infertile spinsters should neither be seen or heard.

[Naden]

^ You're embarrassing yourself but something tells me it is a default state.

[Napoleon]

I would tell you what your default state is, but I'm afraid it might be a tad graphic for this forum.

[chubacka]

Originally posted by Sherban Shabeel:

Here's a nifty little visual description of various styles of headscarves. Gotta love the BBC!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

How thoughtful of the dear old Beeb.

[Che -Guevara]

Why ban it. I think all sort of qamaal or burka, or whatever looks fab on everybody

 

[Che -Guevara]

Check the reaction of the guy in the background.

 

I know this adds absolutely nothing to the discussion but I couldn't resist

[Che -Guevara]

 

This is even better pic..LoooooooooooooooooooooooL

[Ibtisam]

Originally posted by LayZie G.: First thing is first, thank you for the kind words. Samir iyo aamiin allah naga siiyo. Inta dhimatay allah u naxariisto, inta noolna allah u gargaaro, aamiin.

Ameen

 

LOL@

quote:

---

Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you?

Ibti, no 'buts' or 'ifs' or 'lets just say'. First you must ask yourself the tough questions and ask your subjects these very same questions.(answering a question with a question will not work)

Answer the question dear sis, I just said to you that I have asked myself those questions and made a decision, so what is yours, maxaad la mermersan :confused: Or are you too polite to say that you think I am also forced, abused, ignorant or otherwise unfit to make such choice?

 

Matter of fact, demand that they ask themselves the tough questions. (you have 30 strong women). Other than that, I don't do

hypothetical,

I deal with the 'now'.(we dont have much to discuss here if you do not want to challenge yourself or your subjects)

This whole discussion is hypothetical dear, your whole argument is based on your perception and your assumed position in the face of certain conditions (which are again assumed on your part) so you do, do hypothetical, have been for a long time.

You say 'you come from a research background', and I recognized it early on to be the simple truth, which is why I told you numerous times why I think you are the best person to tackle this issue with your 30 women but you must first challenge yourself before you challenge your subjects. Besides, you did not do your actual thesis on the burka and its impact on Muslim women, nor did you share any scholarly material thats upto date or provide statistical studies , instead, you shared your views, which you based on your interactions with the said women in your life as well as using the verses from the Qur'an to strengthen the argument that covering up could mean for some as more than a clothing(which was not a strong argument at all) and it could potentially mean for some that this simple act or the representation of it brings them closer to God, which is why they decided to follow this path in the first place.(not proven at all )

I’m glad you have finally grasp 10% of what I’ve been saying for weeks, hopefully you will catch the other 90% another time when you are not busy being defensive. I am not proposing a ban or a compulsion on all to wear, therefore I DO NOT NEED to present any research to indicate that people are free to make their own decisions!!! YOU on the other hand have made a number of assumptions based on WHY or HOW they have made their decisions, based on YOUR OWN assumptions (even if you did your own research it would be a start, but haada it is all in your mind) Somehow you expect to artificially induce an agreement from me based on WHAT your perceptions are. :confused: So I don’t need to proof that they are abused or not abused, drugged or dragged, ****** or genius, nor do I need to claim that a new revelation came down saying take this evidence to Lazy G, all I am saying is that burqa wearing women are normal human beings who are intelligent enough to make their own life choices without interference from deluded well meaning individuals who feel sorry for them or think of them are subjected poor sub human beings who need to be librated, nor do they need a bunch of hot headed lunatics to play God and beat them for wearing a different hijab.

I told you that it wasn't as black and white as you make it ought to be and that there is potential here and that you needed to explore it. You just want to limit your understanding of the subject and accept any answer that agrees with "IBTI's position".

No, disagree all you want, but disagree based on principles or solid reasons, don’t disagree for the sake of it. Cara, Naden, Sherben and Aliamos agree with me on a complete different wave length compared to why Thierry or Blessed will agree with me, North would probably agree with me first and foremost just to be on opposite end as you, nevertheless the point is, all these individuals agree with me in principle, but we differ widely after the initial agreement that it is an individual decision and these women are capable of making such decision. Cara and Naden might object from a fashion or healthy & safety perspective, others bring up integration and social barriers etc. BUT you are just rigid and refuse to accept that some can and do freely wear it because THEY want to, believe in it and love it without a beating male relative or brainwashing.

You did not question the reasons nor do you question yourself as to why you accept a simple answer as, I do it as a sign of religious observance, etc.

Yad yad ya, I have answered this before dear sis, the fact that you ignore my answers does not mean I have repeat myself like a broken record. My opinion and respect for this garment will not change because you keep beating the same old battered drums. I questioned myself, answered those questions and still grace the pavements in full gear when I feel to with the hope that Allah may reward me for that day that I have gone the extra mile.

I have to be honest Ibti, not only do you come across as being irritant with the course this subject has taken but its almost as thought you want to just take people's words as truth and dismiss the opposition by using Allah as leverage.

Subxanallah at using allah, walciyadu bilaah. I’m irritated because of your lack respect and perception of these women. I’m irritated that you as someone who champions women’s rights etc at the same time are trying to dictate to other women because they offend your emotions and sensibilities with their choices. Most of all I’m irritated that you as a Muslim have posted a nun you much admire and I KNOW you would defend her right to dress such way unpressured and under no strain picked such life style based on she was pleasing her lord (both in action and dress), yet you cannot extend the same curtsy to Muslim Burqa wearing sister.

 

Remember, human beings are biased. You are biased, I'm biased, the said women are biased, thats why its our job to find out why people say what they say, how they say it and what role does outside influence play on their decision making but failure to grasp this simple fact will lead us and this subject a place where we can not turn back time.

agree but this discussion was and is not about the process people take to come to a decision, it is at a basic level of Can they make such a decision, and if they do, should we hinder them, help them or leave them to it. Also I was sent to this earth as an investigator to look into the hearts of people (you or them) each has their own challenges to overcome and responsibilities to fulfill both to their lord and to other humans. I can only call a spade, a spade. You on the other hand emotional pick topics and then try to build a case without pillars (I say this because I have yet to see you questioning why women wear this that or the other, or why men do this here and there;) instead I see you victimizing burqa wearing women and constantly mocking them on this forum, because somehow you concluded that you are better than them, and they deserve less respect than everyone else. As an admire and an occasional wearer, it is not rocket science why I would be irritated and annoyed that you don’t even have a single solid foundation for you ignorant assumptions, and instead demand that THEY proof to you or society that they are not abused or brainwashed or beaten; maybe I’ll make them a little card to carry around, stamped and signed by at least 10 people a day, verifying that indeed she made this decision unaided. Even then I’m sure you will find a reason to object.

 

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock....

Indeed time is precious, so lets not waste each others time dear, we really don’t have much to discuss if you stand with you back against the wall demanding a verse legislating women must wear Burka and a certificate that she who does, wears it is because she wants to, and she wears it for God, not for a man.

 

Walahi your whole attitude reminds of people I occasionally meet who speak to me really slowly, loudly and with lots of sign language because they assume I do not speak English.