LayZie G: Putting the Burka issue to bed

[NGONGE]

A&T, he writes for The Times, every Monday. It's a form of 'easy reading'. Good stuff though.

[Ibtisam]

Ngonge, That cracked me up!!

 

I know a ban will never work in practical terms without lawsuits but semi bans: For example in universities, schools, hospitals will probably become more common. For example at the hospital I work at, the guidelines are:

- Nothing hanging off or lose at the arms

- Not dragging on the floor

- If wearing a dress or skirt; It must be wide, lose fitting and not restricting your steps or hazard

- No open toes or sandals.

 

Which is fine, unless you are a niqabi.

[Cara.]

^Those limitations stem from practical considerations, not xenophobia and fear-mongering. At work we're not supposed to have our hair down if it is longer than shoulder length (at least not while the safety inspector is around!). To be honest a niqabi would be a walking safety violation

[Ibtisam]

Women have you not seen the new inventions?? Now they use material that allows you to see out clearly, might fine vision like tinted windows but people cannot see you. I like them;

 

Cara it is a walking violation only if you already had two left feet, niqab won't help with your walking then

[Cara.]

Did I tell you about the time I nearly burned the building down because I wanted to disinfect some surgical instruments? And don't get me started on slippery door handles, steps that appear out of nowhere, loud sounds that make you jump and drop radioactive material in glass vials... I think there's a chapter in the safety manual dedicated to listing all the new dangers people discover because of me

[Cicero]

^ So the Burka is a just a benign expression of pious credulity, similiar to the mormon underwear? I disagree. The origin of the Burka, unlike the magic underwear of the Mormons, is a societal structure in which the inferiority of women is axiomatic. It's not simply a matter of religious observance. To say that Afghani women wear such clothing due to inclement weather is just cruel humor. Those who wear it in the West are often extremists and radicals. I'm still not convinced that banning the Burka encroaches upon civil liberties, or that it creates a slippery slope when it comes to government interference.

 

NGONGE , good stuff.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by MAXIMUS POWERS:

Layzie, IBZ is an amateur and ciyaal! she claims to be protecting the hijab and yet designs new innovative and modern hijabs for Muslims (some of which are quite revealing and would be considered un-Islamic. baal let me find some of Ibtis designs.....

max could you not interrupt the discussion of these sisters please. thanx

[LayZie G.]

I'm still not convinced that banning the Burka encroaches upon civil liberties, or that it creates a slippery slope when it comes to government interference.

No wonder you are not convinced. Thats because Ibti's views are shaped by 30 or so Burka wearers. If it were upto Ibti, she would convince the world that these women represent the silent majority and that we should take their word over the thousands of women whose lives were shattered because of the Burka in their home countries.(public record)

 

Ibti draws the intimate experiences of the 30 or so women at the expense of the victims of Burka. These thousand or so women who say they have been coerced into wearing the material in the first place and that their lives were at risk at some point or another because of the Burka are not legitimate source, nor should their words be taken at face value because its a western agenda and perhaps these women are agents of the west, sent to spread lies about the good muslim by portraying the said garment in a negative light. On the other hand, the words of the said 30 or so amazing ladies that Ibti draws from her experiences are the sole authority of the Burka, thereby dismissing the thousand or so that have endured the lashes just because Ibti says its a personal choice and her ladies say its personal choice too, which means we should take their word and put the 'to wear or not to wear' subject to rest.

 

Ibti's counter-argument is flawed, in that on the one hand, she insist that it is a personal choice and because Islam does not prescribe the garment, it doesn't mean that is outlaw by Islam, thereby insisting that the right for a woman to wear the Burka should be granted and no one should stand in the way of it. On the same token, Ibti argues that the material brings some women (the said 30 or so) closer to God by turning them away from worldy sins and vanity and into God, in other words, the motivation to wear Burka is an 'exaggerated penance', which only the Burka can fulfill.

 

 

This could mean one of two things:

 

Either the women battling inner demons and the Burka conceals the darkness from the world and away from prying eyes or they believe that Burka would single handily wash away their sins, thereby allowing them to be closer to God because they have embarked on the ultimate sacrifice, "covering their identity from the public" , so why wouldn't Allah grand them forgiveness?

After all, the garment is made from harsh material and the dark screens that the figure represents a ghost like figure, thereby, subjecting themselves through penance in the Burka.

 

 

And as for Ibti's high heel research? Ibti, Ibti, when did this discussion turn away from the Burka and into the world of stilettos?

 

Let us keep our eyes on the prize because we don't want anything to distract you from your mission of putting this topic to rest but as soon as you bring distractions into the discussion, the Burka just doesn't go away.

 

As for turning away from sin, Theresa of Avila once told of the moment she felt that God had admonished her for her youthful sins and from that point on, she did everything to feel God's love through spiritual healing. Denouncing worldly goods, giving her body and soul to serving God, which was anything she has yet experienced. Theresa once said "The memory of the favor God has granted does more to bring such a person back to God than all the infernal punishments imaginable." For her, loving God with all of her body and soul meant that she would not offend him. (the more she loved him and was closer to him, the harder it had gotten of offending God by being sinful)

 

What we can take from the good lady? Her devotion to God in this world and the next. Collective works that brought her closer, it strengthened her iman. For Theresa, there was no other alternative, thereby defining her closeness to God through her collective good works was the way.

 

Theresa continued to work hard, day and night, praying to God, indulging in mental prayer, denouncing her friends and the evil spirits but this surely was not enough. She knew she had to do more for she had tried to serve God by becoming nun and even that could not fulfill the sorrow she felt or fill her empty heart.

 

All in all, nothing she did was ever enough, or atleast she felt that way, until she started dedicating her time to others.

 

Her life as she knew it didnt end with being the best nun she could be, there had to be more, thats why she believed that good intentions were not enough, instead good actions is what counts with God, in which she said: "Good effects were better than pious sensations that only make the person praying feel good". By God was Theresa right and no amount of Burka would cleanse the soul of evil, even Burka, instead, good actions will go along way with God. (may her soul respect in peace)

 

Example of good action:

 

Feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, treating the sick. Devoting your life to others, that is what counts but I do not hear you saying any of that coupled with wearing the Burka, instead, Burka alone should be the good works of a Muslim woman. Being pious is all about the clothing when we both know that God can see through everyone and everything.

 

At the end, I hope you take no offense when I say that I'm not convinced(just as cicero and others are not convinced), instead, I'm left with more questions than every before with every post.

 

Ibti, can you honestly sit there and say that you have given your all in presenting a convincing argument for the burka?

 

 

Instead, we are reading about one distraction after another....

[Ibtisam]

SalamAlikum;

No wonder you are not convinced. Thats because Ibti's views are shaped by 30 or so Burka wearers. If it were upto Ibti, she would convince the world that these women represent the silent majority and that we should take their word over the thousands of women whose lives were shattered because of the Burka in their home countries.(public record)

You have yet to back this up. Where in the west have 1000s womens life been shattered lazy??? Also you have started to perform for the audience, remember we started this discussion on our own to achieve an understanding, so instead of all of sudden addressing the audience and referring to me in that context, please return to dialogue.

 

Ibti draws the intimate experiences of the 30 or so women at the expense of the victims of Burka. These thousand or so women who say they have been coerced into wearing the material in the first place and that their lives were at risk at some point or another because of the Burka are not legitimate source, nor should their words be taken at face value because its a western agenda and perhaps these women are agents of the west, sent to spread lies about the good muslim by portraying the said garment in a negative light. On the other hand, the words of the said 30 or so amazing ladies that Ibti draws from her experiences are the sole authority of the Burka, thereby dismissing the thousand or so that have endured the lashes just because Ibti says its a personal choice and her ladies say its personal choice too, which means we should take their word and put the 'to wear or not to wear' subject to rest.

Lets just say I know 30 Burka wearing women, (which I don’t know, I know more Burka wearing women than non-Burka wearing, furthermore I have travelled Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, India, not to mention Somalia where I have met Burka wearing women, some of them for the strangest reasons and raging from salafist, shia, Sunni and few other random sects) but for the sake of argument, lets just say I know 30 happy Burka wearing women. How many Burka wearing women do you know, (Happy or unhappy?? One? Two? Zero?) I keep asking you this have you ever even exchanged salams with one, even if she had a black eye and broken leg? The fact is, I still have more interaction with them than you, you draw ALL your conclusions from YOUR own thoughts and Tabloid newspapers/ shows. at least I have a sample data.

 

Ibti's counter-argument is flawed, in that on the one hand, she insist that it is a personal choice and because Islam does not prescribe the garment, it doesn't mean that is outlaw by Islam, thereby insisting that the right for a woman to wear the Burka should be granted and no one should stand in the way of it. On the same token, Ibti argues that the material brings some women (the said 30 or so) closer to God by turning them away from worldy sins and vanity and into God, in other words, the motivation to wear Burka is an 'exaggerated penance', which only the Burka can fulfill.

Never said only the Burka can fulfill, some may do other things too.

 

This could mean one of two things:

 

Either the women battling inner demons and the Burka conceals the darkness from the world and away from prying eyes or they believe that Burka would single handily wash away their sins, thereby allowing them to be closer to God because they have embarked on the ultimate sacrifice, "covering their identity from the public" , so why wouldn't Allah grand them forgiveness? After all, the garment is made from harsh material and the dark screens that the figure represents a ghost like figure, thereby, subjecting themselves through penance in the Burka.

What? Come again sister. The Burka is not a torture Process nor hardship for those who wear it because they want to :confused:

 

And as for Ibti's high heel research? Ibti, Ibti, when did this discussion turn away from the Burka and into the world of stilettos?

 

Let us keep our eyes on the prize because we don't want anything to distract you from your mission of putting this topic to rest but as soon as you bring distractions into the discussion, the Burka just doesn't go away.

The correlation since you would like to pretend you did not see it was because YOU (not me) You brought up the issue of the Burka and alcohol induce behavior, and association of danger. So I asked you if you are saying Burka should be banned based on the danger it causes its wears, then how far do social institutions go in engineering behavior, High heels? Which clearly are more dangerous than the Burka. Read it again if you did not see it the first time.

 

As for turning away from sin, Theresa of Avila once told of the moment she felt that God had admonished her for her youthful sins and from that point on, she did everything to feel God's love through spiritual healing. Denouncing worldly goods, giving her body and soul to serving God, which was anything she has yet experienced. Theresa once said "The memory of the favor God has granted does more to bring such a person back to God than all the infernal punishments imaginable." For her, loving God with all of her body and soul meant that she would not offend him. (the more she loved him and was closer to him, the harder it had gotten of offending God by being sinful)

 

What we can take from the good lady? Her devotion to God in this world and the next. Collective works that brought her closer, it strengthened her iman. For Theresa, there was no other alternative, thereby defining her closeness to God through her collective good works was the way.

 

Theresa continued to work hard, day and night, praying to God, indulging in mental prayer, denouncing her friends and the evil spirits but this surely was not enough. She knew she had to do more for she had tried to serve God by becoming nun and even that could not fulfill the sorrow she felt or fill her empty heart.

 

All in all, nothing she did was ever enough, or atleast she felt that way, until she started dedicating her time to others.

 

Her life as she knew it didnt end with being the best nun she could be, there had to be more, thats why she believed that good intentions were not enough, instead good actions is what counts with God, in which she said: "Good effects were better than pious sensations that only make the person praying feel good". By God was Theresa right and no amount of Burka would cleanse the soul of evil, even Burka, instead, good actions will go along way with God. (may her soul respect in peace)

What is your point sis. (by the way she too wore a Jalbib (the Somali and Arab, exactly the same even in the layers)

 

Example of good action:

 

Feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, treating the sick. Devoting your life to others, that is what counts but I do not hear you saying any of that coupled with wearing the Burka, instead, Burka alone should be the good works of a Muslim woman. Being pious is all about the clothing when we both know that God can see through everyone and everything.

 

At the end, I hope you take no offense when I say that I'm not convinced(just as cicero and others are not convinced), instead, I'm left with more questions than every before with every post.

Now you are jumping from post to pillar, Lazy no one said that anyone will go to heaven based on what they wore, and those actions you listed above are beloved and advised in Islam, however they are NOT compulsory like prayer, hijab, Fasting etc. As for you not being convinced, Cicero Will never be convinced because he does not believe in religion, the very idea that something has to be done for a God offends him. You just have some questions, which I have taken the time to look at and given you my feed back as best as I can. Whether you buy it, or not is up to you at the end of the day. I hope that I have made you question your stance at least and that questioning will compel you to do your own research and seek your own answers in this topic. I’m just an individual, I’m not a preacher or a scholar or a learned one. Just giving my two cents like everyone else on this forum.

 

Ibti, can you honestly sit there and say that you have given your all in presenting a convincing argument for the burka?

 

Instead, we are reading about one distraction after another....

Indeed I have to the best of my ability and my knowledge. My aim was to make you question your own stance and how you form a conclusion and advocate for a ban on something which all your knowledge comes from heresy and for me to understand why you feel such outrage and hatred for garments that people choice to wear in the west when they could just as easily throw it out the window as soon as they arrive from those oppressive regime.

 

Although you started well, I feel that the sincerity is fleeing as we progress, and I feel that nothing will be gained because you have become preoccupied with maintaining your position and defending it regardless. As a result you have failed to answer most of the questions I asked you in my last two posts, instead nit picking and continuously repeating the same things, despite the fact I have responded to every point you have risen in this discussion and tried to get you beyond the “I know they are forced and beaten, because I just know they are even though they don’t say they are”. Do you see how many correlations and statements you draw on from this basic statement based on your own thought process??

 

I’d like you to look at this as a leaning process rather than a debate or a challenge where your way must be imposed. Maybe one day you will come back to it after having met some Burka wearing sisters and reflect. Maybe you will never change your stance, but at least be aware of the huge gaps in your reasoning and the limits of your statements.

 

Kind regards

 

Salamah

[Chocolate and Honey]

Ibti,

Give it a rest. Just like the other thread(yeah, the one you migratd from), LZ is not after the truth, clarification or even hearing the other side out. Like I and others(and you)pointed out, this boils down to a simple choice(to wear it or not to wear it). Like Lazy G. and I discussed, she is only interested to see the ban in the WEST. So for her to argue even in the West women are wearing it out fear is nonesense. One thing is clear: she thinks she knows whats best for those women,which makes her yet another person deciding for women.

It's the ultimate double standard: you want to parade around in a bikini(by the way what did it cost you to get that "sexy" and acceptable body for that itty-bitsy-tiny bikini;starvation, Liposection, hours at that cancigon tanning bed, your savings account, normal relationship with food and people, anxiety, depression, scars from childhood trauma?)fabulous! No? Oh! you want to cover your body? Absolutely not. You're too oppressed, stup!d, ignorant, backwarded to even think about that!

[LayZie G.]

Good Evening Ibti,

 

First thing is first, I don't believe that I intentionally ignored any of your questions. I believe I have answered all of your questions with the exception of "why do you object to women making choices for themselves". (I do recall giving you a reason why I did not want you to lose sight of the discussion by focusing on other distractions, i.e choices, which is why I did not give you an answer at the time)

 

I had a very good reason why I did not want to address this particular side of the debate, which is why I accused you of bringing distractions to our debate by making this about personal choice, when in fact, the question has always been and is still is about whether Islam prescribes the Burka. But by you making the discussion about why I object to it, instead of proving the authenticity of the Burka, as the Burka was on trial, you fell right into Cara's trap. You allowed yourself to be overwhelmed by her distractions and to make this about women's choices, when in fact that was and is still is further from the truth. At the time, I made the choice to stay on course for as long as I possibly could by not falling for that line of questioning you were hammering me with but it seems to me that so far, you just can't let this go, so tonight I decided to entertain you for the sake of entertainment.

 

Ready or not, here it comes:

 

We established the religious argument and that there is none to be had at this time when it comes to the Burka, correct?

 

So, in your view, what is left? Choice? By whom? Women? How are the said women characterized?

 

Two definitions arise from the above questions. One is that, we first need to define what is it that we mean when we discuss a choice one makes. At the same time, we need to categorize the said women in order to understand the choices she makes and how it affects her and her community and whether the old cliche of subordinate role is the key to understanding her decisions, which more than likely allowed her to tune out reason, instead takes up the role of the dependent women, who relies on heresy masquerading as free, independent thinking, which leads to such choices as what the woman can or can not wear, how and when she can wear the garment and most important, how she ought to observe her God, etc , etc.

 

First thing is first, what does it mean when we say one has to make a choice? It is a thought process, which the person decides about A or B , assuming that there is more than one choice to be had, thereby, choosing according to instinct/reason/ability to reach a decision after much deliberation, etc etc. (atleast thats how I define as someone making the choice between option A, B, or there could be C, D but it all comes down to making a choice)

 

What are the choices that are presented to her? Who is presenting these choices and how does this said woman deliberate? Is she alone or with a male figure? Does she rely on popular opinion? All important questions to be had if we are to have an honest debate about the said choice, correct?

 

Marka kale, who is this woman? A free bird, independent woman or is she the submissive, the old cliche of society who still clings to the same old, tired stereotypes of what a woman ought to represent in the eyes of her male master?

 

We have to really be careful when we start discussing Burka and choice in the same sentence, sometimes, its best to be careful about what you wish for because you just might regret it later.

 

Now, I don't mean to overwhelm you here with endless questions but these are all valid questions and they deserve an honest answer.

 

After 6 pages of circling around the issue of Burka, I'm more than convinced that you do not have a shred of evidence that supports your position about choice or what such choices entail or better yet, who is making the decisions? Instead, you accuse me of allowing my personal views to cloud my judgment and that I should give more credit to these women for being brave souls and choosing to wear the Burka in the west of all places but what all of that tells me is that you just dont like my objection to the Burka because you believe that my argument against the darn thing is valid and therefore you dont want to admit that I'm right nor do you want to admit that you do not present a counter- argument but instead, you insist on bringing other factors into the discussion about woman's prerogative etc in order to avoid asking yourself the tough questions.

 

You think playing dress up with an atheist/christian is research? You think 30+ of your close friends and family is real stats? (my personal views are much more convincing than the 30 or so women who you insist represent the majority of Muslim women)

 

C'mon now, you know better, thats why I don't take these bits of personal moments you share serious because I know you are capable of much more. On some other issues, you can hold your own, even now, if it weren't for these distractions, I think you would have taken this argument to new heights but you can not allow Cara to trap you again. (forget it, she could care less if they wear a g-string. Cara will always believe that the choice should always be left to the woman because she thinks all women are alike)

 

On page 3 of this thread, Ailamos said the following to you:

 

This is basically what I have been trying to say, that it's always the woman's choice, not the male authority's, she has the sole responsibility to read and interpret and not succumb to someone else's interpretation.

My question to you is, do you agree that all women are on equal footing when it comes to making decisions on their own? Do you think all women are capable of making decisions?

 

I'm sure you agree that the free birds are more than capable of making decisions that concern their lives but what of the submissive ones?

 

Are we to believe that these clingy women have developed and embraced modernity, even after the feminist waves?

 

Do you think these prudes are in fact appreciative of the struggles that our women hero took on behalf of all women?

 

Do you honestly believe that because someone resides in the west, that they are more likely to have independent thoughts, than say, someone in Jakarta?

 

 

One thing is clear, which is that the hopeless souls, however many that exist hate to be labeled as such or boxed into a corner , instead, they take comfort in being dominated, because because, get this, wait for it, they find peace and security, oh and the shocker of it all, its a personal choice.(but wait for it, thats only after an alternative or lack of understanding of the choices is presented)

 

In other words, these hopeless souls reject modernity in all its forms because of the fear of the unknown.

 

Besides fearing the unknown, they resist change but it does not mean they oppose progress, especially if it has their best interest but this search, this process of self-discovery is the very same thing that they are told is problematic and if you dont believe me, says the male-master, just look no further, see what it did to the free-birds as 'feminists', 'men eaters', 'westernized', 'lack faith and have no respect for traditional values', is that what you want to discover? You want to be a free-bird?

 

 

PS: sorry for the delay, tacsi baa i gashay

[Ibtisam]

Salam

Firstly I’m sorry about the tacsi, may allah give you sabar and forgiveness for the person who passed away. Sorry for your loss.

First thing is first, I don't believe that I intentionally ignored any of your questions. I believe I have answered all of your questions with the exception of "why do you object to women making choices for themselves". (I do recall giving you a reason why I did not want you to lose sight of the discussion by focusing on other distractions, i.e choices, which is why I did not give you an answer at the time)

I don’t think you intentionally ignore them either I think you have a habit of either skim reading, or you read the first few lines and just start typing a response focused on that, in the process of hammering that home you forgot to pick up on the other points. I tried to fix that by numbering my points, but that did not improve the situation either.

 

I had a very good reason why I did not want to address this particular side of the debate, which is why I accused you of bringing distractions to our debate by making this about personal choice, when in fact, the question has always been and is still is about whether Islam prescribes the Burka. But by you making the discussion about why I object to it, instead of proving the authenticity of the Burka, as the Burka was on trial, you fell right into Cara's trap. You allowed yourself to be overwhelmed by her distractions and to make this about women's choices, when in fact that was and is still is further from the truth. At the time, I made the choice to stay on course for as long as I possibly could by not falling for that line of questioning you were hammering me with but it seems to me that so far, you just can't let this go, so tonight I decided to entertain you for the sake of entertainment.

Well done to you, but way before Cara showed up, in page3 (where I posted the pictures) You would notice that I told you where I stood and I closed the chapter on it. I still stand by it. I answered your question with regards to the how the Burka fits into Islam and I posted pictures to support it (that it is part of Islam because it satisfies the criteria of a hijab) and how people act within those limits in entirely up to them. It is one of the things you keep missing and since page3 I’ve repeated it several times. The BURKA is part of Islam because it is a legitimate way of fulfilling the hijab criteria which we agreed on in page 1-3. I went on to tell you that for some people it is doing that extra bit more to please Allah and we have no place in commenting on it. I also told you that other people wear it for whatever reason and it is not for us to comment on it. Same way I cannot comment on someone’s prayer. Now I am having to say it again, because yet again you insist that we have not addressed this.

 

Ready or not, here it comes:

 

We established the religious argument and that there is none to be had at this time when it comes to the Burka, correct?

NOT CORRECT, please see above and any of my above posts for that matter. Otherwise I am going to just start cope and past my previous answers.

 

So, in your view, what is left? Choice? By whom? Women? How are the said women characterized?

Religion is a person thing, it is always discussed as a choice made by an individual.

 

Two definitions arise from the above questions. One is that, we first need to define what is it that we mean when we discuss a choice one makes. At the same time, we need to categorize the said women in order to understand the choices she makes and how it affects her and her community and whether the old cliche of subordinate role is the key to understanding her decisions, which more than likely allowed her to tune out reason, instead takes up the role of the dependent women, who relies on heresy masquerading as free, independent thinking, which leads to such choices as what the woman can or can not wear, how and when she can wear the garment and most important, how she ought to observe her God, etc , etc.

I don’t really do group definitions, far too wide, but lets run with this.

 

First thing is first, what does it mean when we say one has to make a choice? It is a thought process, which the person decides about A or B , assuming that there is more than one choice to be had, thereby, choosing according to instinct/reason/ability to reach a decision after much deliberation, etc etc. (atleast thats how I define as someone making the choice between option A, B, or there could be C, D but it all comes down to making a choice)

An adult person, normal, not mental or sick person.

 

What are the choices that are presented to her? Who is presenting these choices and how does this said woman deliberate? Is she alone or with a male figure? Does she rely on popular opinion? All important questions to be had if we are to have an honest debate about the said choice, correct?

Not in reality, highly in practical to debate about the circumstances that lead to every choice. But carry on. The assumption here is that she is normal, not sick, not mental and not abused or forced (because that would not then be a choice)

 

Marka kale, who is this woman? A free bird, independent woman or is she the submissive, the old cliche of society who still clings to the same old, tired stereotypes of what a woman ought to represent in the eyes of her male master?

As I said this is why group definitions are far too wide and problematic. Either way and who ever she is her providing SHE made a choice between wearing and not wearing or wearing a specific type, her choice is valid. She could be old fashion or otherwise.

 

We have to really be careful when we start discussing Burka and choice in the same sentence, sometimes, its best to be careful about what you wish for because you just might regret it later.

Burka is not a controlled drug nor is it some sort of killer bug, is she changes her mind, she can just take it off. It is not a life long sentence, often depending on level of Iman we fluctuate between our extra actions; whether they maybe burka wearing, sunnah fast or sunna prayers.

 

Now, I don't mean to overwhelm you here with endless questions but these are all valid questions and they deserve an honest answer.

Your question does not matter the least HERE is showing why you, aside from your obvious dislike for the Burka would go out of your way to condone it or advocate for a ban. Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you? If your answer is yes, then we are done with this issue because bottom line is that providing I am not force and I have the capabilities to make a choice for reasons known to me then it is fine and Okay.

If you are answer is NO, then still we are done with this issue because dear sis it means that putting aside the issue or force, putting aside the issue of education and stereotypes of women who generally wear this and putting aside the so called abuse, your concern is not rooted in these but rather another objection which you have failed to highlight, which is that YOU don’t like, YOU don’t approve, YOU want to dictate to them the limits in religion and practice- WHY would be an interesting question at this point. But nevertheless it is clear at this junction that if your answer is No, we are never gone come to common grounds so let quite wasting our time and energy.

 

After 6 pages of circling around the issue of Burka, I'm more than convinced that you do not have a shred of evidence that supports your position about choice or what such choices entail or better yet, who is making the decisions? Instead, you accuse me of allowing my personal views to cloud my judgment and that I should give more credit to these women for being brave souls and choosing to wear the Burka in the west of all places but what all of that tells me is that you just dont like my objection to the Burka because you believe that my argument against the darn thing is valid and therefore you dont want to admit that I'm right nor do you want to admit that you do not present a counter- argument but instead, you insist on bringing other factors into the discussion about woman's prerogative etc in order to avoid asking yourself the tough questions.

I told you long ago I don’t argue for Right or Wrong, because outside of what Islam says is RIGHT or WRONG (i.e. the grey areas) are always open to debate and interpretation, and I happy to entertain, accept or even adopt anything which Islamicly valid and authentic. Your argument is on the opposite spectrum, so the chance of me ever accepting it is zero. As for tough questions, walalo as a hijabi, I’ve been there done that, did my research, looked for a short cut or way out, tried the rebel mode, made my piece and decision. Alhumdulilah questioning and reasoning and digging for answers is why I am who I am and made the choices I made.

 

You think playing dress up with an atheist/christian is research? You think 30+ of your close friends and family is real stats? (my personal views are much more convincing than the 30 or so women who you insist represent the majority of Muslim women)

your personal views ON Burka is more convincing then the testimonies of 30 Burka wearing women! Haha. Why? Because you think they are all abused, uneducated, men-worshiping freaks. Really? I come from a research background, your personal opinion is just that, an outsider looking in.

C'mon now, you know better, thats why I don't take these bits of personal moments you share serious because I know you are capable of much more. On some other issues, you can hold your own, even now, if it weren't for these distractions, I think you would have taken this argument to new heights but you can not allow Cara to trap you again. (forget it, she could care less if they wear a g-string. Cara will always believe that the choice should always be left to the woman because she thinks all women are alike)

you are obsessed with Cara, not me, and she does not think all women are alike, but I’ll let her defend her point. As for new heights, unless you are waiting for me to claim that I have received a revelation, this is the short and long of this issue. Partly because it is really not as bigger deal as you think it is people cover, some don’t, some do it for culture others do it for religion, others just follow the crowd, but what does it matter, it impacts them as individuals until SHE (the women) tells me otherwise.

 

On page 3 of this thread, Ailamos said the following to you:

quote:

________________________________________

This is basically what I have been trying to say, that it's always the woman's choice, not the male authority's, she has the sole responsibility to read and interpret and not succumb to someone else's interpretation.

________________________________________

My question to you is, do you agree that all women are on equal footing when it comes to making decisions on their own? Do you think all women are capable of making decisions?

providing they are not mad, mental, sick abused or to young, yes I do, they are all capable of making decisions that applicable to THEIR life/ environment. Whether they are allowed to or not is a different story and a different issue, but capable certainly each women is capable.

 

I'm sure you agree that the free birds are more than capable of making decisions that concern their lives but what of the submissive ones?

 

Are we to believe that these clingy women have developed and embraced modernity, even after the feminist waves?

I don’t know about these so called clingy submissive ones, but I did not need feminist movement to liberate me, Allah already gave me my rights, I just had to learn to read. I could not give too hoots about modernity either (if by that you mean the period of “Enlightenment”) if you mean up to date, I still don’t care. I follow a scripture, whether parts of it are classed as archaic or not suitable for modern society does not concern me. So submissive ones providing they are Muslims and know their position could make their own decisions about life.

 

Do you think these prudes are in fact appreciative of the struggles that our women hero took on behalf of all women?

See above, I don’t count myself as a feminist. I’m quite neutral about them and I don’t believe they made any scarifies for me.

 

Do you honestly believe that because someone resides in the west, that they are more likely to have independent thoughts, than say, someone in Jakarta?

thoughts without action are just thoughts, someone in the west has the space to grow and make wider choices without limits or pressure from opposing society. I can walk on my head or tie a bin bag in one leg and a bucket on the other and no one will blink here. If I try that in Hargisa they’d probably put me in a mental hospital or try to beat the Jinn out of me.

 

 

One thing is clear, which is that the hopeless souls, however many that exist hate to be labeled as such or boxed into a corner , instead, they take comfort in being dominated, because because, get this, wait for it, they find peace and security, oh and the shocker of it all, its a personal choice.(but wait for it, thats only after an alternative or lack of understanding of the choices is presented)

 

In other words, these hopeless souls reject modernity in all its forms because of the fear of the unknown.

Hopeless souls, I can’t get passed that.

 

Besides fearing the unknown, they resist change but it does not mean they oppose progress, especially if it has their best interest but this search, this process of self-discovery is the very same thing that they are told is problematic and if you dont believe me, says the male-master, just look no further, see what it did to the free-birds as 'feminists', 'men eaters', 'westernized', 'lack faith and have no respect for traditional values', is that what you want to discover? You want to be a free-bird?

Throw the kitchen sink my way sis, I’m not a traditional or cultural person, but what ever ideas someone wants to discovery, follow or promote is entirely up to them. By the same token, assuming that people who have taken a different path have not gone through a similar process of self discovery is just blind ignorance and self absorbent.

 

 

 

PS: sorry for the delay, tacsi baa i gashay

Once again my sincere condolences.

[Ibtisam]

To cut a Long story/thread short;

 

Answer this first

Lets say I answered those questions you asked FOR myself and at the end of it I decided that as a free bird, who is educated (in Islam and world subjects) and independent (both financially and otherwise) would start wearing the Burka and the niqab full time here in London. Then WHAT? All of your questions have been answered, do I now have your support, would you defend my conscious decision that I made to wear it as a religions garment because I believe it brings me closer to my lord and I am doing a pleasing act with the right intentions. Furthermore would you respect my choice and defend it for what it is i.e. a person of sound mind making a different choice for religious reasons or even otherwise. Well would you?

Then progressor in which ever direction it takes you.

[BUKURR]

Anyone is happy that France finally put the Burka thing into peace!

[Sherban Shabeel]

A French parliamentary committee has recommended a partial ban on women wearing Islamic face veils.

The committee's near 200-page report has proposed a ban in hospitals, schools, government offices and on public transport.

It also recommends that anyone showing visible signs of "radical religious practice" should be refused residence cards and citizenship.

The interior ministry says just 1,900 women in France wear the full veils.

 

(BBC News)

In its report, the committee said requiring women to cover their faces was against the French republican principles of secularism and equality.

"The wearing of the full veil is a challenge to our republic. This is unacceptable. We must condemn this excess," the report said.

The commission called on parliament to adopt a formal resolution stating that the face veil was "contrary to the values of the republic" and proclaiming that "all of France is saying 'no' to the full veil".

Presenting the report to the French National Assembly, speaker Bernard Accoyer said the face veil had too many negative connotations.

"It is the symbol of the repression of women, and... of extremist fundamentalism.

"This divisive approach is a denial of the equality between men and women and a rejection of co-existence side-by-side, without which our republic is nothing."

The report is expected to be followed by the drafting of a bill and a parliamentary debate on the issue.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield, in Paris, says the reasoning behind the report is to make it as impractical as possible for women in face veils to go about their daily business.

There is also a fear that an outright ban would not only be difficult to implement but would be distasteful and could make France a target for terrorism, our correspondent says.

France has an estimated five million Muslims - the largest such population in Western Europe.

Months of debate

The report follows months of public debate, including President Nicolas Sarkozy's intervention, saying all-encompassing veils were "not welcome in France".

However, he did not explicitly call for a ban, saying "no-one should feel stigmatised" by any eventual law.

Opinion polls suggest a majority of French people support a full ban.

However, the parliamentary deputies have recommended that - for now - restrictions should be limited.

The committee suggests a ban inside public buildings, with those who defy the ban denied whatever services are on offer there - for example state benefits.

There are several types of headscarves and veils for Muslim women - those that cover the face being the niqab and the burka. In France, the niqab is the version most commonly worn.

The niqab usually leaves the eyes clear. It is worn with an accompanying headscarf and sometimes a separate eye veil.

The burka covers the entire face and body with just a mesh screen to see through.

The issue has divided France's political parties.

The Socialist opposition has come out officially against a ban, saying it would be difficult to enforce. It says it is opposed to full veils in principle, but some members have expressed fears about any ruling that could stigmatise Muslim women.

Meanwhile, the head of Mr Sarkozy's right-wing UMP party has already presented a bill in parliament supporting a full ban on grounds of security.