LayZie G: Putting the Burka issue to bed

[Ibtisam]

SalamAlikum;

 

I opened the new thread so you don't get distracted and also because there are so many people arguing about so many different things.

 

So far we agreed:

 

I said:

Lazy: Okay.

 

So in your view a head scarf fulfils the religious requirement and we should be allowed that, or at least those who want to wear it SHOULD be able to because it is a religious requirement, however the niqaab and the jalbib/ Burka is extra curriculum and therefore it should be banned- regardless if they wear it because they want to or not.

 

If that is your basic argument, then yes I can answer you and will do so inshallah. In return I want you to consider my answer and then answer what your truly believe, in addition I will only quote you:

1) What Allah Said

2) What the prophet (PBUH) said

3) What the sahaba (1,2, 3 and 4 generations after the prophet said)

4) What is agreed upon by the four major school of thoughts in the Sunni sect

5) And my own analysis

 

I would like you to keep to the same restrictions, I will not accept the arguments of:

1) A Gaal (regardless of how smart or educated) This includes people who use to be Muslim

2) A current shike known as Moderate Muslim

3) A Somali historian who seeks the tradition of Somalis rather than the influence of religion

4) Your opinion remains an analysis- it cannot be fact or masked as holding religious significance (same goes for me)

You made the following modification:

 

Yes, exactly, that's the basis of my argument and furthermore, I would love nothing more than to finally put this topic to rest, as long as you limit your quotes to:

 

1) What Allah Said

2) What the prophet (PBUH) said

5) Your final analysis

 

I expect you to use 1 & 2 as a primary source but only use 3, 4 as a secondary source to help strengthen your interpretation of 1&2 but not as a final verdict of what is deemed admissible. (I only reject 3&4 because interpretations change with time, so what one generation thought of an issue would change based on the circumstances of the said period etc, thats why we can only use legitimate quotes from the Qur'an as a guiding principle and everything else should be considered as a secondary. This is because, an argument can be made that 3&4 looked after the interest of one group more than the other based on the need to limit the movement of the opposite sex)

 

If you agree to above terms, we will have ourselves a good, hearty debate and we will only limit to those terms, nothing more, nothing less...

I accept, although I would like to point out that I think you are wrong about what you said of group 3 &4, there are many issues we have no other authority on BUT them; but on this issue sources 1,2 and myself are sufficient. (We'll deal with the side issue another day, another time inshallah.)

[Ibtisam]

What you object to and would like to be banned:

 

 

I say these are legitimate forms of Hijab and would never accept any argument to ban them or "liberate" those who WANT wear it. Islamic dress is one of many rights granted to Islamic women. Modest clothing is worn in obedience to God and has nothing to do with submissiveness to MAN or human.

[Ibtisam]

The basic:

 

I will use Hijab to mean to "cover", "drape", or "partition"; the KHIMAR for scraf covering the head and the word NIQAB as the veil covering lower face up to the eyes.

 

The Evidence

 

From the QuranIn Surah 24: An-Nur: 30 and 31, modesty FOR Muslim men AND Muslim women:

 

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for Greater purity for them: And God is Well-acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women That they should

lower their gaze And guard their modesty:

and they

should not display beauty and ornaments expect what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;

that They

must draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty

except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, or their women, or their slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they

should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their ornaments.

Okay so what can we take from here:

1. Every believer Must lower their gaze and behave modestly, that is the first rule.

 

2. Muslim women SHOULD "draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty" except in the presence of their mahram. Note here, that self-conscious exhibition of your beauty is forbidden, but what you wear normally is fine.

 

3. Although Muslim women may wear ornaments they should not walk in a manner intended to get them attention or make enough noise to make people look up.

 

Also from the Quran:

Aya 59 from Sura al-Ahzab:

O Prophet! Tell Thy wives And daughters, and the Believing women, that They should cast their Outer garments over Their Persons: That they should be known (As such) and not Molested.

The verse is directed to the Prophet's "wives and daughters", but there is a reference also to "the believing women" hence it is generally understood that it applies to all Muslim Women.Let me know if you contest this and I shall expand

 

What can we take from this ayah:

1) Muslim women should wear an outer garment when going out.

 

2) This is so that we are recognized as "believing" Muslim women and differentiated;-mark of identification.

 

3) The purpose of the outer garment is so that we are not regarded as a sexual object or subject to attention. This is enhanced by the fact that Old ladies do NOT have to wear the outer garment unless they really want to, although it is recommended even for them;

 

Surah 24: An-Nur, Aya 60:

Such elderly women are past the prospect of marriage,-- There is no blame on them, if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not wanton display of their beauty; but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One who sees and knows all things.

The Hadith

 

1) Narrated by Aisha: "Asma bint Abu Bakr entered upon the Apostle of Allah while she was wearing

thin clothes.

The Apostle of Allah turned his attention from her. He said:

‘O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this,’

and he pointed to

her face and hands."

(Sunnan Abu Dawud 32:4092)

 

2) Narrated from Aisha: She mentioned the women of Ansar, praised them and said good words about them. She then said:

'When Surat an-Nur came down, they took the curtains, tore them and made head covers of them.'"

 

 

3)Usaamah ibn Zayd said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave me a

thick Egyptian garment

that was one of the gifts given to him by Duhyat al-Kalbi, and I gave it to my wife to wear. He said, ‘Why do I not see you wearing that Egyptian garment?’ I said, ‘I gave it to my wife to wear.’ He said,

‘Tell her to wear a gown underneath it, for I am afraid that it may describe the size of her bones.’”

(Narrated by al-Diyaa’ al-Maqdisi in al-Ahaadeeth al-Mukhtaarah, 1/442, and by Ahmad and al-Bayhaqi, with a hasan isnaad).

 

 

4)Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

cursed the man who wears women’s clothes, and the woman who wears men’s clothes.”

saheeh ahaadeeth

 

But We agreed at your request not to include evidence from the sahaba, even the first generation, so we we can put the second hadith aside and stick to the Quranic verses above and the first, third and fourth Hadith.

 

What did we concluded:

 

1)Clothing must cover the entire body, with the exception of the face and the hands. With Emphasis on covering the bosoms and not displaying our beauty

 

2) To wear an outer garment to top of the modest clothing when going out of the house (unless you are old)

 

3) The attire should not be see through or attract undue attention, and be modest.

 

4) We should not bang our feet (High heels count in my opinion) but anyway no qub qalax noise to attract people walking around.

 

5) It should be loose enough so as not to describe the body/ bone.

 

6) It should not resemble the clothes of men.

 

Do we agree on the basic evidence, if so I will post my analysis, if not please point out what you disagree with.

[ailamos]

A female Muslim scholar once said “protecting women from change by veiling them and shutting them out of the world has echoes of closing the community to protect it from the West.”

 

The word hijab in essence has a double meaning. The much quoted verse 33:53 was revealed in the 5th year of the Hijra because of the Prophet's concern for his own privacy and the privacy of his wives (particularly Zainab bint Jahsh) from the then visitor Anas ibn Malik. I think there is no need for outlandish interpretations that it means a hijab over the body.

 

About verse 24:31, let me just say that in this day and age women cover their bosoms anyway, whether it's with a sweater or a shirt or a blouse. So, there is no need to over-emphasize it by adding a thick garment on top. That verse was revealed in order to make the believing women at the time of Prophet cover their bosoms, and I think there is no need for it since we don't see bare-breasted women walking around.

 

It amazes me that you take the words of the Quran literally without analyzing the historical reasons of the verses. Verse 33:59 was revealed at a time when the Prophet was having problems with the people of Medina. These people (obviously men) had a habit (or tradition) of harassing slave-girls in Medina... even when some slave-girls had converted to Islam they continued to be molested along with other women including the wivs of the Prophet. So, it was imperative at that time to protect the wives of the Prophet and the believing women from these acts.

 

In conclusion, the Muslim women of that time were ordered to wear such clothing in order to be distinguishable as believing women. Additionally, the type or form of clothing is not mentioned in the verse.

 

But hang on... since you're an ardent, unquestioning follower of what the Quran says, what do you think of this verse:

 

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way." 4:16

 

Would you kill your daughters because of such lewdness, a word that can have multiple interpretations and which I think why in some Muslim societies husbands, fathers and sons kill women.

 

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." 4:34

 

Would you allow your husband to beat you should you disobey or disagree with him? You must since it's in the Quran no? And because it says in the Quran that he is in charge of you?

 

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.” 2:222

 

But the above verse somewhat contradicts what one of the Prophet's wives, Maymuna, had said “it happened that the Prophet recited the Quran with his head on the knee of one of us while she was having her period. It also happened that one of us brought his prayer rug to the mosque and laid it down while she was having her period”.

 

I have many more sources and quotes so I will be awaiting your explanations.

[Ibtisam]

Originally posted by ailamos:

[QB] A female Muslim scholar once said “protecting women from change by veiling them and shutting them out of the world has echoes of closing the community to protect it from the West.”

Speaking of considering the historical context, I believe you are referring to Fatima Mernissi, who is not an Islamic scholar as you claim BUT a feminist writer and sociologist. (I like some of her work.)

 

 

The word hijab in essence has a double meaning. The much quoted verse

33:53

was revealed in the 5th year of the Hijra because of the Prophet's concern for his own privacy and the privacy of his wives (particularly Zainab bint Jahsh) from the then visitor Anas ibn Malik. I think there is no need for outlandish interpretations that it means a hijab over the body.

I think you are confused brother, the ayah you refer to is: "O you who believe! Do not go into the Prophet's rooms except after being given permission to come and eat, not waiting for the food to be prepared, However, when you are called, then go in and when you have eaten, then disperse, and do not remain wanting to chat together. If you do that, it causes injury to the Prophet though he is too reticent to tell you. But Allah is not reticent with the truth. When you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen (33-53) Notice I did not quote that Ayah above for Lazyie- so I don't get what you are asking me, nor is your argument by extension about covering correct, since you picked on the wrong Ayah.

 

About verse 24:31, let me just say that in this day and age women cover their bosoms anyway, whether it's with a sweater or a shirt or a blouse. So, there is no need to over-emphasize it by adding a thick garment on top. That verse was revealed in order to make the believing women at the time of Prophet cover their bosoms, and I think there is no need for it since we don't see bare-breasted women walking around.

1) It does what matter what you cover your bosoms with so long as it covers.

2) I don't believe you don't see cleavage all day every day.

 

It amazes me that you take the words of the Quran literally without analyzing the historical reasons of the verses. Verse 33:59 was revealed at a time when the Prophet was having problems with the people of Medina. These people (obviously men) had a habit (or tradition) of harassing slave-girls in Medina... even when some slave-girls had converted to Islam they continued to be molested along with other women including the wives of the Prophet. So, it was imperative at that time to protect the wives of the Prophet and the believing women from these acts.

That is true, but what is your point, while it would be nice if society contained men who did not molest or harass women, clearly this is not the case and this was ordained so that Muslim women can single that they were unavailable or not fair game. This remains the same; The less clothes you wear, the more likely men will approach or harass you.

 

In conclusion, the Muslim women of that time were ordered to wear such clothing in order to be distinguishable as believing women. Additionally, the type or form of clothing is not mentioned in the verse.

By extension, and since there will be no new prophet or revelation, current Muslim women are subject to the same, and the characteristics are expanded on in the hadith (which I believe in)

But hang on... since you're an ardent, unquestioning follower of what the Quran says, what do you think of this verse:

 

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way." 4:16

 

Would you kill your daughters because of such lewdness, a word that can have multiple interpretations and which I think why in some Muslim societies husbands, fathers and sons kill women.

My dear the Quran makes it IMPOSSIBLE to prove a woman guilty of lewdness, as it requires FOUR reliable witnesses to prove that she actually committed a sin by having illegal sex. And yes if I lived in a sharia compliant society and I WAS or my daughters were guilty, testified by ME or four reliable witness would expect and want the punishment carried out.

 

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." 4:34

 

Would you allow your husband to beat you should you disobey or disagree with him? You must since it's in the Quran no? And because it says in the Quran that he is in charge of you?

This verse neither permits violence nor condones it, while it uses the term "beating" and only applicable in extreme cases and ONLY if one is sure it would improve the situation, if it only worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then no he can't. Furthermore, the prophet expanded on this as "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark" and not on the face. So if my husband was practising Muslim in all aspects and I was in the wrong, then a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush is the least of my worries. And Yes I have no problem with he man being the head of the Family and in charge of ME and his family, while I was living with my parents/family then it is them who are in charge of me.

 

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.” 2:222

 

But the above verse somewhat contradicts what one of the Prophet's wives, Maymuna, had said “it happened that the Prophet recited the Quran with his head on the knee of one of us while she was having her period. It also happened that one of us brought his prayer rug to the mosque and laid it down while she was having her period”.

Read the tasfir, you misunderstood, the verse is relation to the husband has to abstain from having sex with his wife during menstrual bleeding not about interacting with your wife.

 

 

I have many more sources and quotes so I will be awaiting your explanations.

Fine, but it seems your issue is with a lot of things and while I would love to help you out, I don't think the way to getting all your answers is by posting on a forum all the issues you have with Islam. Lastly I cannot debate with you on issues within in Islam without knowing where you are coming from or your objections. From what get of the thread above you are following the lines of accept the quran BUT as relevant to the society and context/ conditions it was revealed under and arguing that things are different NOW, so its applicability is not the same, and Hadith is doubtful. I don’t agree with this and believe that it was revealed for everyone in any time period because Allah was aware that things change and with his wisdom accounted for this. I certainly don’t think our common sense and basic human intelligence can do better.

[BUKURR]

Firstly Ailamos, I liked how and what you said at the Somali vs Burnai thread, but I am troubled flowing you in here, what the two ladies discussing is really not worthy mentioning.

 

This saying from our prophet keeps coming to mind:

"Islam started strange and will get back to be strange" a very poor translation, I apologize

(Bada' alislamu ghariiba wa sayacuudu ghariiba)

 

Keep Allah in your heart even if you're wearing a bikini!

[ailamos]

I think you are confused brother, the ayah you refer to is:

"O you who believe! Do not go into the Prophet's rooms except after being given permission to come and eat, not waiting for the food to be prepared, However, when you are called, then go in and when you have eaten, then disperse, and do not remain wanting to chat together. If you do that, it causes injury to the Prophet though he is too reticent to tell you. But Allah is not reticent with the truth. When you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen

(33-53) Notice I did

not

quote that Ayah above for Lazyie- so I don't get what you are asking me, nor is your argument by extension about covering correct, since you picked on the wrong Ayah.

Hold on a second here, you're accusing me of confusion because I am quoting what's in the Quran? Tell me you dispute the historical facts of ayah 33:53? If you do then I would love to hear your argument.

 

1) It does what matter what you cover your bosoms with so long as it covers.

2) I don't believe you don't see cleavage all day every day.

(1) It does matter eh? where does it say that? The no ayah explicitly says "cover your breasts with a chador" does it?

(2) I did not understand this point.

 

That is true, but what is your point, while it would be nice if society contained men who did not molest or harass women, clearly this is not the case and this was ordained so that Muslim women can single that they were unavailable or not fair game. This remains the same; The less clothes you wear, the more likely men will approach or harass you.

I cannot believe you are going there Ibti... are you saying that the societies where Muslims live in this day women are harassed left and right? This is too easy to debate Ibti because your argument is clearly centers along the lines of "if a woman is raped, then it is her own fault for showing skin, the man is only a human who cannot control his urges"... This was "ordained" as you out it because it was common practice to sexually molest women on the street. Besides, when you tell a person you are not available then they usually just leave. Expressing interest in a woman is not wrong whether or not they have a blanket on them.

 

By extension, and since there will be no new prophet or revelation, current Muslim women are subject to the same, and the characteristics are expanded on in the hadith (which I believe in)

"By extension" you say? and is that fact? if so please furnish me your proof... please.

 

My dear the Quran makes it IMPOSSIBLE to prove a woman guilty of lewdness, as it requires FOUR reliable witnesses to prove that she

actually committed a sin by having illegal sex.

And yes if I lived in a sharia compliant society and I WAS or my daughters were guilty, testified by ME or four reliable witness would expect and want the punishment carried out.

I am amused at the "impossibility" which you allude to. Tell me, what would stop a group of 4 men of falsely testifying against a woman? I have not words to say to you about your choice of giving your own daughters this severe punishment... I just feel sad for them and for you.

 

This verse neither permits violence nor condones it, while it uses the term "beating" and only applicable in extreme cases and ONLY if one is sure it would improve the situation, if it only worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then no he can't. Furthermore, the prophet expanded on this as "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark" and not on the face. So if my husband was practising Muslim in all aspects and I was in the wrong, then a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush is the least of my worries. And Yes I have no problem with he man being the head of the Family and in charge of ME and his family, while I was living with my parents/family then it is them who are in charge of me.

How does this verse not permit violence? and why are you contradicting yourself by stating that it "does not permit violence" and then say that it's "only applicable in extreme cases". And how does violence improve the situation? Are you out of your mind? Violence never improves situations, it only makes them worse. Also, either you are ignorant of the Arabic language or you have no understanding of the meaning of the word "mubarrih", it does not mean "a light tap", as you try to cushion it but rather that does not leave a mark and do you know what? A lot of internal injuries do not show marks on the body... for example a severe punch to the stomach. I suppose that you, Ibtisam, as a person have no problem over your husband towering over you and being the head and commander of the household. I suppose you don't have a problem with having an uneven balance of authority in the home and being happy to stay inside all the time and not want a fair, equal and balanced relationship. But please don't suppose or expect other Muslim women to be as submissive and as unquestioning as you are.

 

Read the tasfir, you misunderstood, the verse is relation to the husband has to

abstain from having sex with his wife

during menstrual bleeding not about interacting with your wife.

If that's the case then I stand corrected. But this doesn't mean that other "observant" Muslims don't think of the menstrual cycle as a disease that shouldn't be approached with a 10-foot pole.

 

Fine, but it seems your issue is with a lot of things and while I would love to help you out, I don't think the way to getting all your answers is by posting on a forum all the issues you have with Islam. Lastly I cannot debate with you on issues within in Islam without knowing where you are coming from or your objections. From what get of the thread above you are following the lines of accept the quran BUT as relevant to the society and context/ conditions it was revealed under and arguing that things are different NOW, so its applicability is not the same, and Hadith is doubtful. I don’t agree with this and believe that it was revealed for everyone in any time period because Allah was aware that things change and with his wisdom accounted for this. I certainly don’t think our common sense and basic human intelligence can do better.

If that is the case Ibti and if what you truly believe is that "Islam must not change with time", then I don't think we should be debating this issue because we'll be going around in circles.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by GDwonder:

Firstly Ailamos, I liked how and what you said at the Somali vs Burnai thread, but I am troubled flowing you in here, what the two ladies discussing is really not worthy mentioning.

 

This saying from our prophet keeps coming to mind:

"Islam started strange and will get back to be strange" a very poor translation, I apologize

(Bada' alislamu ghariiba wa sayacuudu ghariiba)

 

Keep Allah in your heart even if you're wearing a bikini!

GDwonder, I think Ibti and I have quite divergent views on the ability of Islam to "evolve" along with the times so I think we'll drop the matter because we won't be reaching an amicable position.

 

"Keep Allah in your heart even if you're wearing a bikini!" - Amin to that!

[Cicero]

originally posted by Ibtisam

This verse neither permits violence nor condones it, while it uses the term "beating" and only applicable in extreme cases and ONLY if one is sure it would improve the situation, if it only worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then no he can't. Furthermore, the prophet expanded on this as "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark" and not on the face. So if my husband was practising Muslim in all aspects and I was in the wrong, then a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush is the least of my worries. And Yes I have no problem with he man being the head of the Family and in charge of ME and his family, while I was living with my parents/family then it is them who are in charge of me.

 

This is quite a gem of torturous reasoning. I find it curious that muslims twist themselves out of shape when it comes to explaining this odd verse. Explaining God's nuances for beating and hitting a woman must be a source of much embarrassment for modern muslims.

 

What is strange is that the verse says: as to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), refuse to share their beds (second) , beat them (third)

 

Imagine if an inexperienced marriage counsellor told a man going through maritial problems: try talking to your wife; if that does not work, give her the silent treatment, and don't sleep in the same bed; if the situation does not improve, then beat her. Did I mention lightly?

 

Such a marriage therapist would not be excused on grounds of inexperience, but he would rightly have his license revoked, uncerimoniously run out of town, and slapped with criminal charges and civil suits. For what can be more idiotic, unethical, misogynistic, and imbecilic than counselling a man to visit violence upon his wife?

 

How illogical is such advice? You would think after step two, not sleeping in the same bed, that the conflict between husband and wife has reached dire levels. How does step three, beating her, magically make things better, not worse?

[chubacka]

I find it curious that muslims twist themselves out of shape when it comes to explaining this odd verse.

 

Its easy to understand if you know that muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah, thus they do not take the liberty of assigning some verses as "odd" or more or less reasonable than other verses.

 

How illogical is such advice? You would think after step two, not sleeping in the same bed, that the conflict between husband and wife has reached dire levels. How does step three, beating her, magically make things better, not worse?

 

The Quran is used as a general source of knowledge and guidance, i.e. what is and what is not permissable.

 

It is up to the individual to use their own common sense as to how to handle the situation they find themselves in, i.e if you don't think some things will help for example hitting the woman lightly then don't do it, its not imperative, its an option for you to use your judgement over, you don't need to make a song and dance about it.

[ailamos]

I suppose that you, Ibtisam, as a person have no problem over your husband towering over you and being the head and commander of the household. I suppose you don't have a problem with having an uneven balance of authority in the home and being happy to stay inside all the time and not want a fair, equal and balanced relationship. But please don't suppose or expect other Muslim women to be as submissive and as unquestioning as you are.

And by the way Ibti, I apologize for resorting to a personal attack in my last post. I didn't mean to and it's certainly not the way to have a healthy discussion regarding sensitive topics. So, I'm sorry.

[Ibtisam]

Originally posted by ailamos:

quote:

---

I think you are confused brother, the ayah you refer to is:

"O you who believe! Do not go into the Prophet's rooms except after being given permission to come and eat, not waiting for the food to be prepared, However, when you are called, then go in and when you have eaten, then disperse, and do not remain wanting to chat together. If you do that, it causes injury to the Prophet though he is too reticent to tell you. But Allah is not reticent with the truth. When you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen

(33-53) Notice I did

not

quote that Ayah above for Lazyie- so I don't get what you are asking me, nor is your argument by extension about covering correct, since you picked on the wrong Ayah. [/qb]

Hold on a second here, you're accusing me of confusion because I am quoting what's in the Quran? Tell me you dispute the historical facts of ayah 33:53? If you do then I would love to hear your argument.

Not at all, the store is true and well known, I was asking you why you are asking me about this Ayah about privacy when I spoke of Hijab as in covering your cawra. I still don't understand how this ayah supports or not Hijab (as in dressing) and why did you bring it up? :confused:

quote:

---

1) It does what matter what you cover your bosoms with so long as it covers.

2) I don't believe you don't see cleavage all day every day.

(1) It does matter eh? where does it say that? The no ayah explicitly says "cover your breasts with a chador" does it?

(2) I did not understand this point.

1) You said you can cover your bosoms with anything, I agreed and said anything is fine so long as IT covers!

 

2) You said you don't see breast in this society (I assume you mean unlike the Qurisha women who use to bare their breast) So I asked you whether you don't see cleavage all the time.

 

That is true, but what is your point, while it would be nice if society contained men who did not molest or harass women, clearly this is not the case and this was ordained so that Muslim women can single that they were unavailable or not fair game. This remains the same; The less clothes you wear, the more likely men will approach or harass you.

I cannot believe you are going there Ibti... are you saying that the societies where Muslims live in this day women are harassed left and right? This is too easy to debate Ibti because your argument is clearly centers along the lines of "if a woman is raped, then it is her own fault for showing skin, the man is only a human who cannot control his urges"... This was "ordained" as you out it because it was common practice to sexually molest women on the street. Besides, when you tell a person you are not available then they usually just leave. Expressing interest in a woman is not wrong whether or not they have a blanket on them.

1) Whatever your views are of the female Hijab, you can at least refer to it by its correct term. There is no use having a discussion with condescending people. What you refer to as a blanket mockingly I hold in high regards and honestly regard it as blanket from the world

 

2) I would never make excuses for a rapist, regardless of who the victim was, nor do I make excuses for the actions of men. Nevertheless being reasonable and protecting yourself from risky situations even for non-Muslims is always advised. And since you bring up rape; statistically in the west most rape cases are committed by someone who the women already knew, and yes it is true random rapist often will try to find someone with least clothing or restrictions, looks most venerable and isolated and possible intoxicated (I was once the researcher for government run women's safety Magazine). So I assure you a random rapist is less likely to pick someone with 5layers of clothing and with her mahram (male family members)

 

As for your most people will leave you alone if you saw No; while you may not be physically sexually assaulted on the street, Many women are followed and pestered in both Muslim and Non- Muslim societies. I can testify to that, so yes we are verbally harassed and bothered, and yes the level varies with how dressed up we are (rightly or wrongly) and no acknowledge that is not making excuses for immoral men.

 

By extension, and since there will be no new prophet or revelation, current Muslim women are subject to the same, and the characteristics are expanded on in the hadith (which I believe in)

"By extension" you say? and is that fact? if so please furnish me your proof... please.

Is what a fact? that there will be no new prophet? YEs. Or that we are subject to the same religion and conditions- Again YES.

 

My dear the Quran makes it IMPOSSIBLE to prove a woman guilty of lewdness, as it requires FOUR reliable witnesses to prove that she

actually committed a sin by having illegal sex.

And yes if I lived in a sharia compliant society and I WAS or my daughters were guilty, testified by ME or four reliable witness would expect and want the punishment carried out.

I am amused at the "impossibility" which you allude to. Tell me, what would stop a group of 4 men of falsely testifying against a woman? I have not words to say to you about your choice of giving your own daughters this severe punishment... I just feel sad for them and for you.

Okay feel sad all you want, if it is any comfort the four witness have to be people who are normally known for their honest, and secondly they will need to answer to Allah like the rest of us. I guess I will take comfort in knowing that I or my daughters were punished wrongly and Allah will reward them in the hereafter for their suffering. The reason we have so many problems in our societies is because of this misuse of religion and unfortunately the APPLICATION of the laws of allah unlike the rules themselves are not free from human error.

This verse neither permits violence nor condones it, while it uses the term "beating" and only applicable in extreme cases and ONLY if one is sure it would improve the situation, if it only worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then no he can't. Furthermore, the prophet expanded on this as "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark" and not on the face. So if my husband was practising Muslim in all aspects and I was in the wrong, then a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush is the least of my worries. And Yes I have no problem with he man being the head of the Family and in charge of ME and his family, while I was living with my parents/family then it is them who are in charge of me.

How does this verse not permit violence? and why are you contradicting yourself by stating that it "does not permit violence" and then say that it's "only applicable in extreme cases". And how does violence improve the situation? Are you out of your mind? Violence

never

improves situations, it only makes them worse. Also, either you are ignorant of the Arabic language or you have no understanding of the meaning of the word "mubarrih", it does not mean "a light tap", as you try to cushion it but rather that does not leave a mark and do you know what? A lot of internal injuries do not show marks on the body... for example a severe punch to the stomach.

I don't want to get into this, but I see no contradiction between the Quran and Hadith (You can also read the story of Prophet Ayoub and his wife with regards to this issue if you are really interested), whether you like it or not is irrelevant and beside the point. And no it does not mean physically harm your wife. The culture at the time was to beat your wife severely, the prophet commented on this in the Hadith which goes something along the lines of "how can one of you beat your wife like you beat a thirsty camel and then sleep with them" I don't have time to look for the source now but will do so later for the exact wording.

 

I suppose that you, Ibtisam, as a person have no problem over your husband towering over you and being the head and commander of the household. I suppose you don't have a problem with having an uneven balance of authority in the home and being happy to stay inside all the time and not want a fair, equal and balanced relationship. But please don't suppose or expect other Muslim women to be as submissive and as unquestioning as you are.

Islam is not about ME and WHAT I want or do, regardless of whether I follow or not, the scripture does not change and while Islam does not expect humans to be perfect practising all the time- BUT we must always say it how it is in Islam and not make excuses for that which we do not practising. For example if I don't pray, I should not try to justify or argue that maybe I don't need to, the minimum iman is to say, I don't right now, it is wrong but I intend to do so inshallah. This is the same for all issues, big or small. And this is not about ME, but about Islam.

 

Read the tasfir, you misunderstood, the verse is relation to the husband has to

abstain from having sex with his wife

during menstrual bleeding not about interacting with your wife.

If that's the case then I stand corrected. But this doesn't mean that other "observant" Muslims don't think of the menstrual cycle as a disease that shouldn't be approached with a 10-foot pole.

Maybe you are thinking of the Jews who sleep in a different room during their wife menstrual cycle. I noticed you used the word Disease, the Ayah calls it an illness (I noticed you know Arabic, so I can only assume you are purposely trying to change things) In any case, religion is judged by the scripture Not its followers action, otherwise we'll be here all year talking about what different Muslims do.

 

Fine, but it seems your issue is with a lot of things and while I would love to help you out, I don't think the way to getting all your answers is by posting on a forum all the issues you have with Islam. Lastly I cannot debate with you on issues within in Islam without knowing where you are coming from or your objections. From what get of the thread above you are following the lines of accept the quran BUT as relevant to the society and context/ conditions it was revealed under and arguing that things are different NOW, so its applicability is not the same, and Hadith is doubtful. I don’t agree with this and believe that it was revealed for everyone in any time period because Allah was aware that things change and with his wisdom accounted for this. I certainly don’t think our common sense and basic human intelligence can do better.

If that is the case Ibti and if what you truly believe is that "Islam must not change with time", then I don't think we should be debating this issue because we'll be going around in circles.

I agree. I do believe that Islam as a scripture does not change and application only changes if new issues arise. So okay lets not go in circles.

 

SalamAlikum

 

P.s. CiceroAs I keep telling Johnny I am not going to debate about the meaning of an Ayah or its application with someone WHO does not even believe in the authority of the Quran or its validity or a GOD. Kind of pointless really.

[LayZie G.]

24:31 Surat An-Nūr

 

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

Where in this qur'anic verse do you see the veil portion that you have shared with us ibti?

 

We have to be honest with ourselves and with each other if we are to have an honest debate about the verses you have shared above, you will have to do a better job at presenting evidence.

 

If we are picking and choosing Qur'anic commentary aka tafsir and presenting it as a fact, which is different from the authentic arabic poetry of our qur'an, then you should have put it in bracket or noted it as being an afterward tafsiir that commented on the above verse, etc. You did neither, which makes me question your motives and the length you will go through to fabricate a verse just so you can add a veil interpration from a commentary to drive your point home.(intentional or not)

 

I'm saddened by these findings and I can no longer continue this debate (if I can not trust you to follow the rules) and if you continue to break our agreement, I too will have to break the rules, which means you will not like the portions of this surah that I will present as a fact from an unreliable online site that refute your claims)

 

Please, take extra care when viewing sites that deem themselves an authority on everything Islam and instead present the said verses as written within the surah from the kitaab.

 

 

PS:I can't help but wonder why you refuse to use your Kitaab as a primary source?

 

Pss: Ibti, few months ago, I posted a thread entitled: The Veil: An E-Nur invitational and I presented Surah An-Nur for Sheih Nur to dissect. I brought up the very two verses you shared here. Read it here

[Ibtisam]

Okay Lazy, here is what I want you to do; (First can you read Arabic? then I won't need to post you the English version?) Failing this; FIND a translation within the Sunni sect of Islam and Post meaning of the same above Ayahs and Hadith I have quoted for you.

 

The reason for this is because regardless of who translated, the core meaning does not change, so I am really not to bothered who you quote or what site you use.

 

May Allah protect me from fabricating or attempting to twist his words, because in essence what you are implying is that I am not content with HOW Allah said things and think I can say it better Na’cuudbililah.

 

So knock yourself out, you really are running out of excuses sister, for I have laid a red carpet for you to walk on and open all the doors for you. Really I thought for once you can let go of this issue, but it seems like you don’t want to, so let’s not waste each other’s time.

 

By the way, the translation was from my Kitaab. But lets use your one, since you seem to think it will somehow magically support your way. Allah's words will and laws don't change my dear

 

EDIT:

I did read your link question to Nur, it says nothing about what position you hold, nor has he responded to you, so it adds nothing here. I thought I understood your position but now I'm kind of confused since you use the Word Veil differently across threads. And the Niqab thrown in there too; which is not the same as a Burka.

 

So when you have time; sit down and write down your problem with each and the meaning of those verses that you are comfortable with.

 

Salamah

[LayZie G.]

^my dear,I think you are an amazing person but at the same time, I cant help but be saddened by these findings...why must you share a tafsir and not present it as a tafsir?

 

My arabic is as bad as my Somali but I can work my way out of any verse you share, ee please do share..

 

The truth is, I did not object to what is Islamically expected of both women and men have to conduct themselves in a manner that is becoming of both genders, at the same time, the Muslim women have to dress modestly, which I was in agreement with but how burka fits to the overral meaning of the said verse is where I'm lost...thats why you and I are having this discussion. If you offended by my outsburst, its because I'm a compassionate person (which should not be mistaken for weakness or overly emotional on my part) and when I take someone at face value, I expect just that and an ounce of doubt makes me revaluate the individual with recourse but I still want us to continue as long as we understand each other.

 

For you, it may not have been intentional, thats why I said, intentional or not but it doesnt take away the sadness I felt.