Is Defeat Now an Option?

[xiinfaniin]

.....the conclusion seems inescapable: The United States is disengaging from the Iraq war before victory is at hand, or even in sight. Hence, a defeat, not of American arms, but of the U.S. policy in Iraq, is now a distinct possibility.

 

The argument suddenly seems over and the nation appears to have reached a consensus: earliest possible withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, consistent with the avoidance of a strategic disaster. But here is the rub: We are not going to get out of Iraq without suffering terrible consequences for having gone in. And when we come out, we no longer control what goes on within.

Read on Patrick J. Buchanan's article

[Castro]

Buchanan must be going through an Arianna Huffington-like transformation. The man is certainly leaning to the left more and more.

 

A failed and flawed policy, as the invasion of Iraq, cannot succeed no matter how long the US stays or how many troops they keep there.

 

Nice article Xiin.

[xiinfaniin]

Though damage has already been done, I still get some pleasure, good Castro, when some one in the caliber of Buchanan lies bare, for all to see, how wrong this war was, has been, and still is. It is like ‘ I told you so thing’. That’s exactly what I told my American friends. Alas, time makes more converts than reason does. And caution always surrenders to fate. American hegemony is collapsing before our eyes. The Bush presidency is sinking even deeper, and the Republican boys have begun to abandon him. And when the Push came to shove even Clinton’s cowardice has been replaced with markedly opportunistic strength. The weakling Democrats are spinning and probably wish if they had never voted for it. The governors in the American heartland are tired of attending funerals for that region’s sons.

 

As for the Buchanan and his antiwar articles, this man, I dare say, have solid principles. Iraq war, he thought, was hatched by an angry men who did not know what they were getting in to. It was hyped and promoted by dishonest media. Even if the war were to be won, it would be for Israel, and not for America, he said. If America continues to fight these anti-Islamic wars, Buchanan predicted, it (America that is) would slowly but surely come to its kill. Just like the Spanish bull. Just like the Spanish bull.

 

Vote for Buchanan, good Castro.

[Castro]

Even if I could vote, saaxib, I wouldn't bother. Voting in a plutocracy is similar to insisting the earth is flat, both an exercise in futility.

 

But you're right about the collapse of the hegemony so quickly. Between Delay's indictment, the congressman of California convicted of bribery, an ex-aid to Colin Powell charging Cheney with authorizing torture, Iraq regressing to worse than the worst days of Saddam, Afghanistan practically lost to the Taleban, Venezuala flushing the free trade of the Americas down the toilet then turning around to buy arms from Spain and Russia, China building nuclear submarines that are undetectable by US destroyers, 60% of the US population wanting an immediate exit from Iraq, the trade gap at an all time high, US debt in the trillions, and on and on and on.

 

It's not surprising to me that it's happening. That it is spiraling so quickly down the drain is the surprise. Buchanan may have strong morals but they hardly coincide with yours and mine. He's looking at this from the point of view of an American nationalist and 'patriot'. Strategic US interests he does not question. It's not the power of the US he has problems with, it's the misuse of power by the neocons, in his view, that is the problem.

 

I find this all too interesting as I've heard this predicted from Noam Chomsky 3 years ago when he came to Houston. At the time, I could not fathom that what he was saying would happen in my lifetime, let alone in this decade.

 

Ah well...

 

P.S. Defeat is the only option for the US in Iraq.

[J.Lee]

^Just out of curiosity, anarchist miyaad tahay?

 

It seems to me, I could be wrong however, that Buchanan much like Mansfield ("The terror of our times") about the Vietnam War, is for a withdrawal or at least an exit strategy just because he, and the rest of America, have come to find, or rather learn that the cost of the Iraqi war far outweighs its benefits. A cost, mind you, which wouldn’t have been suffered had Bush not had the support of the American people-the 60% that now are dubbing the war a mistake and unprincipled- PJB and Co. You reap what you sow ma is tidhi?

 

Indeed.

[Castro]

^ It's harvest time in America.

 

I'm not an anarchist any longer. I don't really know what I am. I call it as I see it. US hegemony is fascinating. It's demise will be even more fascinating.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Add that Buchanan has long been home before the masses felt the burden of this war. Anarchist you must be if it means rebel, as it some times used to mean. I, for the record, cant resist blowing the horns of jubilation about this looming defeat, if you can call that.

 

I am tempted to show my chest off. Are you? Why not? Come to see my fireworks, good Castro .

[J.Lee]

^I would like to show off my chest too but unlike you waa xishoonooyaa.

[Yeniceri]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

when some one in the

caliber

of Buchanan

Exactly what is Pat Buchanan's caliber? That of a sore loser? The guy campaigned for the U.S. presidency in 1992, 1996, and 2000 -- and lost terribly all three times. So exactly what "caliber" do you speak of?

 

At the end of the day, regardless of what Rep. Robert Murtha, the Senate Dems or the "moderate" Republicans (read: rednecks) say, George will make the final call. He made the call to go to war -- with Congress's approval. And its up to him whether he stays the course or not. I say George, thusfar, has been a man of his word. He'll stay the course -- regardless of whether his popularity plummets and hits rock bottom or internal discord against his regime grows. He's what our Somali people refer to as "macangag."

 

Let's remember relations between George and Capitol Hill:

 

Congressional Relations

: Candidate Bush promised to be a different kind of politician as President. As President, Bush has played the hard-nosed partisan and conservative ideologue (on issues other than education). It worked moderately well until Republicans lost control of the Senate. Since then, it has been a formula that has caused gridlock and griping.

 

With South Dakota Democrat Tom Daschle at the helm in the Senate, Bush has been floundering to get anything done on Capitol Hill. And he even seems to be losing control of the Republican House -- mainly because he has shown such little willingness to compromise. How bad are Bush's relations with the Hill?

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it," he recently joked

. Congressional leaders aren't laughing. Hey, Mr. President, "compromise" is not a dirty word. It's the way to get things done in Washington.

Overall Grade: D

 

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2001/nf20010730_347.htm

 

[Faarax-Brawn]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

..

I am tempted to show my chest off. Are you? Why not? Come to see my fireworks, good Castro

.

War Balayo[she would say]. Sxb save me[&Him & Her]the trauma.

 

I am not feelin' to see a Dooro like Chest...Hell Naw

 

Bout Pat Buchanan; all i have to say is, i have NO bidneth listening[Even when is right,rather when he goes LEFT]to a man who beleives that Immigrants are a bunch of useless people.

 

My stand on the war in Iraq hasnt changed much: "Stay the Cause" .OK OK am lying. It hasnt changed much after all,it was wrong from Day1 to now;and an opinion by a right wing nut should not strengthen what i already believe in.

[Nephissa]

Wordette: Why? come onnn..share it with the puplic eye. Atleast yours is pleasant to look at!

[Castro]

Celebration is hardly the mood I'd be in. I'd be vindicated, sure, but with all the loss of life, the loss of property, and the loss of innocence, I'd be sad but vindicated.

 

My jubilation will come when the neocons are either in jail or dead. They lyrics of Bob Dylan's song hit the nail on the head for me. Specially the last two lines. The song was written in 1963 and it's about the Vietnam war. Chilling similarity to today's (and future) madness.

[Legend of Zu]

Either way...They Win..dear Xiin... I think you should mourn more than clap and jump with jubilation!...

 

I had my views about this war...and day by day..they comin to reality... there was only one thing that I did not acount for...and I am hoping that is where the Neocon's plan will falter.

 

Cheers

[xiinfaniin]

[Edit]:LZ and Castro, Celebrate victories, as they are view. Loses are plenty, and mournful we must be indeed.I am of the thought that if in fact full American withdrawal materializes it is a remarkable event that is worthy of celebration and, yes jubilation. After all it would be equivalent to the day when Iraq got independence from those English men. Show off your chest, I insist .

 

 

Wordette , you’re excused from this chest showing parade. Yours is a lawful exempt .

 

Faarax , take that shirt off man and try me, man . Try me, I say. Who told you Xiin’s is of the skinny type? Jaangow- ga aan cunnuusan war ka hayn.

 

Bishaaro , join us sister. With your covered chest, that is. Thunderous clap is what I want from you Dhuubo! As for Wordette’s pleasant chest, yaa sheeg-sheeg ku yiri adiga .

 

For the rest of you Pat-bashers, he is the man of the hour indeed. Perhaps you need to know seldom do you find a politician whose political platform you wholly agree. Immigration is a legitimate concern for white America. But the majority seems to have resigned to their ultimate fate. His is a weak shout. So give the man the credit he deserves.

[Jacpher]

Castro, get over it, they're here to stay.

 

As for Iraq war, regardless of what the public thinks, US will stay the course until it achieves its interest in the region. Millions have demonstrated all over the world and it didn't do any good. In spite of the war, both leaders were re-elected.