Profiling Yemen: 'From bikinis to burkas'

[LayZie G.]

^absolutely...and yes, I will be waiting.

 

Ibti, I'm in full agreement with the basics but BURKA is where I draw the line in the sand.

 

PS: Not hijab/head scarf, but Burka, the awful, hyperventilating garment@C&H.

[Tuujiye]

^^ The second one is Jalbab...

 

 

Layzie adiga kaalay qofwalba ma iskala murmee? dadka aad la murmeysid horta qiima uyeel marka hore. Qof aad ogtahay in uusan diin iyo waxaas shaqo kuleheen ayaa iskaga kaa dhigaayo in ee diin yaqaanan...qof been ku murma wiligaa kama reyneesid..qof diintiisana ee tahay waxa gurigiisa lagu barayna wiligaa kama reyneesid....

 

Burqa, dhaqan waxaa u leh afghanistanka.. Niqabkana carabta..they are both dhaqan and have nothing to do with Islam.. Qur'aanka Jalbaab ayaa lugu sheegay which means covering your self.. But even a woman takes the extra steps and covers her self more, is more imaan between her and allah...

 

In the west, anyone could practice their faith which ever way they like to. We shouldn't change our way of life because of the presure we are in the west. However we also have to respect the rules and the laws of the country. You cant travel with Burqa and get on plane. Why not? because is now against the law and the authorities have the right to ask you to show your face so they could match it with your ID...

 

 

Layzie, make sure in aad la doodid dadka halka wiji leh..dinacna u hadlaayo sidii gaaladii meeshaana ehlo diiniya iska dhigaaya.....

 

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

[SayidSomal]

[Ibtisam]

Lazy: Okay.

 

So in your view a head scarf fulfils the religious requirement and we should be allowed that, or at least those who want to wear it SHOULD be able to because it is a religious requirement, however the niqaab and the jalbib/ Burka is extra curriculum and therefore it should be banned- regardless if they wear it because they want to or not.

 

If that is your basic argument, then yes I can answer you and will do so inshallah. In return I want you to consider my answer and then answer what your truly believe, in addition I will only quote you:

 

1) What Allah Said

2) What the prophet (PBUH) said

3) What the sahaba (1,2, 3 and 4 generations after the prophet said)

4) What is agreed upon by the four major school of thoughts in the Sunni sect

5) And my own analysis

 

I would like you to keep to the same restrictions, I will not accept the arguments of:

1) A Gaal (regardless of how smart or educated) This includes people who use to be Muslim

2) A current shike known as Moderate Muslim

3) A Somali historian who seeks the tradition of Somalis rather than the influence of religion

4) Your opinion remains an analysis- it cannot be fact or masked as holding religious significance (same goes for me)

 

Lastly my priority is that Islam prevails as a RELIGION (not culture) in the west and that Muslims are proactive in ensuring we get the room to practice and preach. There is no compromise regardless of whether we live in a Muslim country or not, for those of us in the west, it does not mean that we can escape the requirements of Islam- particularly the obligatory parts such as covering (I know you agree that covering is obligatory)and therefore I do not take lightly the issue of banning.

 

Anyother things you won't accept or want me to avoid let me know. If you don't agree with the above or have a problem with it then say so before I get writing.

 

North, Lazy aniga iga haad I think you two spend too much time fighting that neither of you no longer reads what the other writes, therefore debating is useless, neither of you is willing to give the other benefit of doubt or willing to have their views altered.

[Chocolate and Honey]

If some half-literate bimbo, presiding in the West, wants to wear a Burka, or defend its misogynistic underpinnings, then she should not be afforded the 'luxury' of wearing it. There are many cogent arguments to be made in this regard - both legal and ethical.

My obsession with your English comes from the fact that you(just like the unfortunate, countless masses who populate the West)get your information from the media, sort of like tube-feeding.

It must've taken you a long time to compile such "clever sounding" nouns and adjectives.

I can plug all the words you used in your post in say, Wikipedia and get the exact same sentiments expressed by small-minded people united under the umbrella of ‘Freedom.” You’re not contributing anything of worth to this discussion really.

 

Faith-heads often mistake the principle of freedom, of choice, of conscience, of religion, as a license to practise barbarities and attrocities. You are free to sing obscure hymns, bow and dance, prostrate and jump, and peform all varieties of strange ritual and prayer.

 

Um... Never mind the "dancing" and "singing," whats "prostrating and jumping"? Stop watching those shows on the Travel Channel. I'll have you know, Christians do more "dancing and singing" than us. We're rather serious, really.

But you cannot use religion as a trump card for wearing Burka, killing apostates, lapidating people to death, engaging in jihadism, and the like.

Oh(in the words of our beloved president)Yes We Can!

C&H, there is not much I can do for someone who washes her hands off reading posts that pertain to her questions.

 

I simply told you, C&H, read my posts as that addresses all of your questions, with the exception of the personality questions, which I already said will not do because it will take the focus off the Burka.(maybe another thread, you can ask all the questions that your heart desires)

 

But I'm curious C&H, why did you refusue to read my post from yesterday(the one I posted before you), why is that sister? (its only on page 2)

 

Again, there is not much I can do about someone who wants to hear herself, in this case, read her writings when she refuses to engage the other person on the basis of what they are writing, after all, it is difficult as it is to debate in a forum(with people logging on different times). Don't make this more difficult than it already is, time is ticking, lets hear your position and your supporting arguments already?

To give you the benefit of the doubt, lets dismantle your so called argument:

 

LayZieG says: Burka is not obligatory, therefore its irrelevant and should not be forced in women's throat.

I too believe that it is not obligatory and that it shouldn’t be forced on women. The water gets muddy when women choose to.

In addition, Burka is a middle east phenomena and therefore it should be dismissed, unless the few women who wear it feel that they need to continue supporting the material as a way of life, an attire that identifies the woman within the confinement of her society, other than that, total ban should be called on the attire.

 

Regardless of where it originated from, more and more women all around the world are opting to wear it. What now?

In the west, I think the garment should totally be banned but if few women decided to wear it and do so with the understanding that it is a personal decision, they can do it within the confinement of their home.

 

First of all, you don’t make sense here. You stated it should be banned, ok? So

The reality is that when you go to an Arab country, as a woman, you have to cover up(gaal or no gaal), more or less, and in the west, when you are here, you have to take off the burka.

I disagree with the practice of forcing gaalo or Muslim women to wear the Burka. And this is something the said country and its citizens should work on.

Before we establish such ruling, I suggested that we should debate the relevance of the Burka, is it obligatory or is it voluntary? Once we reach an understanding, only then can we take a vote on the total ban of the garment.

I believe that the Burka is voluntary, so it becomes a personal choice really. So now, lets debate on the basis that it is voluntary and some women choose to wear it.

2) So far, the case was made for those that only do it because they were ordered to do, but if you want to make the case for the other side, by all means, I'm all ears.

Generalization here! Show me all the studies, statistics, and surveys that say those who do it are forced.

3) It is harmful to children, young females and it should only be worn with the understanding that it is not obligatory and then see how many women keep it on.

How is it harmful?

 

 

LG,

While I hold high regards for you, I can only state my state of :confused: . I mean, I read your post.Speaking of hearing oneself, why must you always retreat to attack anyone who holds opposite views. Have you ever heard of counter-arguing? I mean, Somalida waxey dhahdaa i jiid aan ku jiidee waa gacmo daalis. We're on third page, and you still refuse to argue on the basis of freedom of choice. Your rants are useless.

" How do you go from wearing Bikini to Burka," Oh the horror and shock!

[Blessed]

Errr. so if I was to drop my maxis for a bikini, khimaar for an afro wig, Yusuf Islam for the Beatles and started praising colonial powers over - I'll become an intellectual? Oki doke!

 

Tuujiye

Niqabkana carabta..they are both dhaqan and have nothing to do with Islam.. Qur'aanka Jalbaab ayaa lugu sheegay which means covering your self.. But even a woman takes the extra steps and covers her self more, is more imaan between her and allah...

Please provide proof from Quran and Sunnah that niqaab has nothing to do with Islam!.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that while, it isn't fard / obligation, it is a sunnah. When a Islamic action doesn't fall under the fard category, it's not automatically taken out of realm of worship or Islam. If such an action was approved, recommended by the Prophet (saw) and widely practiced by the sahaaba, it becomes a sunnah.

 

The niqaab is a sunnah as much as qiyaam is a sunnah. The niqaab was for starters prescribed in the Quran for the Mothers of the Believers (RA) and many of the sahaabiyaat of the Prophet (SAW) wore it, there's substantial proof from authentic ahadith to support this point. But before we get into the hadiths, there is no denying that it has roots in the Quran, for the Mother of the Believers (RA) at least. How do you reach the conclusion that it has nothing to do with Islam?

 

Add to that the fact that the motivation for wearing it stems from a higher level of Iman and a desire to get closer to Allah, as you yourself have acknowledged. This makes it everything to do with Islam.

 

The image below is what the Arabs refer to as Burqa that is exclusive to the Bedouin Arabic culture which has nothing to do with Islam but is rather celebration of the Bedouin way of life. It's design is inspired by the features of the falcon.

 

This is also not the niqaab worn by Muslimahs across the Muslim world and the subject of much abuse.

[LayZie G.]

^kaalay, why aa mar walbo wiilkaas ugu kacsan tahay? (there is a reason why I attached reading tips with the article, it was meant to guide you to read critically and no reading critically does not mean to narrowly focus on his sexual orientation or his personality but more so, focusing on the content as a whole, is the grievance legitimate? If not, why? Did he overstate some points and not others? What are those? But then again, I expected nothing less from the usual crowd)

 

Ibti, what a breath of fresh air you are.

 

Yes, exactly, that's the basis of my argument and furthermore, I would love nothing more than to finally put this topic to rest, as long as you limit your quotes to:

 

1) What Allah Said

2) What the prophet (PBUH) said

5) Your final analysis

 

I expect you to use 1 & 2 as a primary source but only use 3, 4 as a secondary source to help strengthen your interpretation of 1&2 but not as a final verdict of what is deemed admissible. (I only reject 3&4 because interpretations change with time, so what one generation thought of an issue would change based on the circumstances of the said period etc, thats why we can only use legitimate quotes from the Qur'an as a guiding principle and everything else should be considered as a secondary. This is because, an argument can be made that 3&4 looked after the interest of one group more than the other based on the need to limit the movement of the opposite sex)

 

If you agree to above terms, we will have ourselves a good, hearty debate and we will only limit to those terms, nothing more, nothing less...

 

PS: you are right about north and c&H, they just want muran iney ii galan and take my eyes off the ball, BURKA and I refuse, therefore, they are officially dismissed as unworthy opponents who failed miserably at the task of forming an argument for Burka.

[Blessed]

^Err. did I come across as angry? I've asked a question and I actually think that he raised a very important point. My questions to him are also directed at you and the Muslims who share your views - so please, indulge.

 

Not covering the basics is the reason that you guys keep going in circles. Frankly, I think it's a waste of time to debate religious freedoms, laws, culture etcs when you haven't established the place of niqaab in Islam.

[LayZie G.]

^ , yes, very angry. You sounded as thought inuu Tuujiska "qaras" kugu kiciyo mar walbo aad aragto waxa uu qoro. (PS: I edited the part about u, but please, let us refrain from engaging personalities, lets just keep our eye on the prize, shall we?)

[Blessed]

Yes, please. Lets keep our eyes on the prize!!

 

Without dwelling too much and on whom I've addressed can you please comment on the points I've raised with regards to the niqaab in Islam.

 

p.s I haven't insulted or got personal with Tuujiye, isku dirka jooji.

[Johnny B]

Norf, I think you're an Alien.

 

Now that we've a living example ( not neccessarily in the context of ignorance and uneducated )of someone who actualy covers herself with the "Burka", so let's put the theoretical aspect of the "Burka" aside.

 

 

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

I wear a Burka from time to time and inshallah I intend to wear it full time one day.

Since as a Muslim woman you're not obliged to wear it, why wear it?

 

A: Because , you live in a free society hence can wear whatever you see fit?

 

B: because , You ( as a Somali woman ) wear it out of cultural identity?

 

C: becaude , Your Religion doesen't forbid it ( it rather encourages it )?

 

D: Because , It identifies you as a Muslim woman?

 

E: because of a combination of few or all of above choices?

 

 

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

1) My personal choice concerns other people or requires their approval.

Yep, some of your personal choices Do concern others as they may have an impact on other members of your society, hence, for sustained mutual respect among society members, some of your personal choices are subject to other's acceptabilty-stamp, as a societically acceptable norm.

 

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

1)2) If you want to know why I wear it; ask me or people who wear it in the west full time; Or do you assume they are so stupi*d or uneducated that they cannot answer for themselves?

Lest you expect us to take your answer as to why you wear it, as the universal Truth about why some women wear "Burka", we're entitled to take others's answers as legitimate as we find them.

 

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

3) What harm I am causing by wearing it?

You rather answer the indirect question of what benifits are you bringing to both yourself and to the society you live in by wearing it?

 

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

4) What is the relevance of banning it?

It may symolize a dark period of mankind-civilization ?!

 

Now, in your own words please answer me this.

 

Does or does not your "Burka"-wearing got to do with you being a Muslim woman?

[xiinfaniin]

I am surprised that Johnny B the logician is arguing against a women's dress , asking silly questions as to why Ibti chooses to wear that particular dress.

 

Pray tell what is the 'impact' a Burka has 'on other memebers of the society', ya JB?

[Cara.]

Johnny and Layzie,

 

What if a woman wears a burkha because she believes it signifies her subjugation and inferiority relative to men? What if she thinks her body is shameful, she's unworthy, she'll go to hell if a man sees her face, and she even likes the fact that it's physically restrictive?

 

It doesn't concern you why someone does whatever they do, as long as it's of their own freewill, and it has negligible impact on your life. We can debate what the meaning of this article of clothing is, or why people make the choices they do, but coercing people (even for their own good) should always be subject to strict conditions. Banning the burkha does not meet those conditions.

[Che -Guevara]

Xiin JB Xalimo fu'to xeedan uus rabaa, kuwii galaada uu kagadaale

 

*Exits thinking maxaa dumarka dharkoodana kudiri. Intee lagu arki jirey nin Soomaali arimaha dumarka faragaliya*

[AfricaOwn]

Originally posted by Cara.:

It doesn't concern you why someone does whatever they do, as long as it's of their own freewill, and it has negligible impact on your life

.

Simple concept huh? They're unworthy of attention. People should stop engaging in debate with them.