Profiling Yemen: 'From bikinis to burkas'

[LayZie G.]

C&H, re-read my last post, it addresses questions A-F

 

PS:Just for the sake of clarification, for the time being, 'banning burka' should be called only in the west. (the rest of the world looks to the west for their fashion sense(guidance of sort)) Therefore, you eliminate it in the west, you eliminate the burka 'worldwide' as you put it.

[Chocolate and Honey]

OK?Umm...do you want me to dig up other posts? From my understanding, the Yemeni guy's article is talking about a whole alot of nonesense and he doesnt take on the Burka issue per se.

 

Q?

Do you differentiate the Hijab from Burka or is it all the same to you?

 

So you believe it is Un Islamic( which prompts me to humbly ask, are we arguing on the basis of the Sharia Law?). If so, educate me on how you came to this conclusion. A simple Hadith(one that specifies what exactly covering up means) would do. And because I know you don’t want to go this route, lets go the “democracy” route. Lets say this boils down to individual freedom.

On the issue of is what’s considered “outdated,” who decides? The community that perpetuates the “outdated” practices or the self-proclaimed world police such as the West? This crucial question inevitably brings me to the ELEPHANT in the room so to speak which is the freedom to choose. You’re operating under the assumption that women are forced to wear the Burka(and some are undeniably but most in the West,which is your target group, arent) and as soon as they’re “empowered” by education and limitless freedom, they’ll give up their Burkas. But what if(I know, I know, I know you can’t imagine such horror) they choose to wear it? For instance, what about the educated, ambitious, career woman who wears the Burka say in Miami? First assumption is out of the window, what now? Are you willing to choose for her? Aren’t you being a hypocrite by deciding her attire for her just like the mad groups such as Shabaab who are clubbing women on the head for not wearing it? How are you different?

 

On my other points, the “hideousness” of the Burka, the inconvenience of it, and the issue of taste is relatively personal so I can’t see why you would’ve an issue with that. I’m assuming that you don’t have an issue with women parading around nearly naked in that underwear called “Bikini” as it is their choice, now do you?

[Cabdow]

^ Good questions c&h!

 

I think Canjeex and his fox rants would benefit from reading the below quote.

Would benefit kulaha! I don't read garbage, thanks but no thanks, eedo

 

As far as the piece you presented goes. The author wrote what his masters wanted to hear (just like many before him did, and many after him 'including you' will most likely do in the future) No wisdom there but the words of a sell out!

 

Once again live and let live, and please try to be more you/original next time with the topics you present. Rather than hidng behind, either, islaan cad oo qoor gaduudan or nin dhaga cas oo qaniis ah and so on

[Cicero]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

 

To CIC,

OH My

you really went all out with correct grammar, spelling and even used such warm and fuzzy words like “Truism,” Liberal Democracies(wow! Liberal AND Democracy? My head is swimming!), “freedom,” and “faith-heads”(Ok. Wow! I mean this kind of English… surely, you’ve done your Liberal English teacher proud).

At the core of this debate is this trifling thing called ehem… freedom of choice(I know, I know you only understand it when the Western Media uses it but bear with me ok?). A Muslim woman in Europe or America doesn’t have to wear the Hijab but they choose to. See, it as simple as that.

 

Oh poor “illiterate Muslim women,” forever chained to their "backwarded" principles! I mean they cant even fathom what “Freedom” and “personal choice” mean. I mean how dare they choose Hijab after all the West has given them, right? :mad:

 

I cant help but laugh at “desert dogma.” And whereas God is concerned, I’ll leave you with this: There is nothing more dangerous than a fool armed with limited knowledge. You don’t have the foggiest idea of what you’re talking about.

 

Warning: too much television kills brain cells.

[/quote

Putting aside your puerile obsession with proper english, I cannot help but retort in the manner of an American wordsmith; asked what he thought of the increasing publication of piffle, he quipped: "these books are a great deal harder to read than they were to write". The same thing can be said about the posts that you have made on this thread - thoughtless claptrap.

 

I have no qualms, for the most part, with someone's sartorial preferences however ghastly and clumsy the costume (e.g. Burka, Jalbab, Niqab). What gets my teeth gnashing and my skin crawling are the perverse ideaologies behind such ackward costumes. The wholly unwarranted - dare I say risible - claim that God wants a female to dress this way.

 

If some half-literate bimbo, presiding in the West, wants to wear a Burka, or defend its misogynistic underpinnings, then she should not be afforded the 'luxury' of wearing it. There are many cogent arguments to be made in this regard - both legal and ethical.

 

Faith-heads often mistake the principle of freedom, of choice, of conscience, of religion, as a license to practise barbarities and attrocities. You are free to sing obscure hymns, bow and dance, prostrate and jump, and peform all varieties of strange ritual and prayer. But you cannot use religion as a trump card for wearing Burka, killing apostates, lapidating people to death, engaging in jihadism, and the like.

[N.O.R.F]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

^Championing the core principles of freedoms is one thing,defending that demeaning Tent as an act of freedom-expression is like defending suicide as an act of freedom-expression, it simply defeats the purpose.

 

Muslim women DO the Burka thing (in the belief of satisfying their God ), despite Islam not 'officially' demanding it or distancing it. period.

 

Now,don't you dare start all over again and go " Aren't they are free to shoose so ?" , cause then, the risk of me believing that you're actually an Alien will be overhanging.

Tut, tut. Such a defeatist post Johnny boy

 

There is only one FACT here and that is, wait for it, women are FREE to choose what they wear. Because she CHOOSES to wear something you’re not in agreement with doesn’t negate the fact that she is FREE to do so. A bitter pill to swallow I know hence the lesson by a leaver of the faith on what is, according to him, not prescribed in Islam.

 

Give me a break mate.

[Tuujiye]

Guys Jalbab iyo Burqa and Niqaam kala saara.... Ilaahey Jalbab quranka buu ku sheegay laakiin Burqa and Niqab waa dhaqan... wax simple ah baad ka murmeysaan...

 

I agree with Chocolate Hiney in kastoo badanaa waxa ee qortay aan dictionaryu raadsaday lool..

 

I don't understand why people who cover them selfs in such ways are looked at weard and does that walk around nude are respected...We cold all say something is wrong but we have to judge things fairly. Me personaly I would respect more the woman that covered her face than the one that walked around topless...in kastoo aan kistoo iska qashi lahaa lool (joke)

 

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

[MZanzi]

Originally posted by Tuujiye:

I don't understand why people who cover them selfs in such ways are looked at weard and does that walk around nude are respected (joke)

 

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

That’s funny I like your comment. I think the burqa is kind of scary looking but you’re right, no more scary then some fat chick in low riders with a tramp stamp and whale tail showing.

[N.O.R.F]

And as for brother North, Geeljire and everyone else, if I may ask of you to not engage in personalities, instead engage the subject, Burka in full swing.

 

North, your previous arguments were unsatisfactory, thats why I went to the Guru, Sheikh Nur to directly engage him but he promised to address it in good time and I told him to take his time. You can dig up the brief exchange in the Islamic Section.

 

As for the subject, I would love nothing more than to simplify the debate for everyone.

 

LayZieG says: Burka is not obligatory, therefore its irrelevant and should not be forced in women's throat. In addition, Burka is a middle east phenomena and therefore it should be dismissed, unless the few women who wear it feel that they need to continue supporting the material as a way of life, an attire that identifies the woman within the confinement of her society, other than that, total ban should be called on the attire.

 

Furthermore, LayZieG feels that dressing modestly is necessity, and every Muslim women should dress according to the Sunna, as suggested of men as well.

 

The onus is on you folks. Failure to agree with the above position will automatically result in the person showing Qur'anic verses that will support one's position against banishment on the bases that the attire is in fact a religious obligation, one that all Muslim women must adhere to. Otherwise, please refrain from commenting.

 

 

North, the ball is in your court. You have a third or was it fourth chance? dazzle, will ya?

I’ll keep this simple.

 

1. My previous argument was on point hence you scurrying for cover (don’t let me find that thread).

 

2. Women who wear the niqaab believe it is obligatory. Many scholars have differed on it for many years. Do try and furnish us with some of the scholars whose opinions will back up your stance (that’s if you really do want to debate the subject from an Islamic perspective).

 

3. Women who wear the niqaab especially in the west CHOOSE to wear it. You haven't used any research to suggest otherwise. You seem to believe that repeating the same lines will win you arguments. In the previous thread someone posted articles from Niqaab wearing intelligent women which you brushed aside (don’t let me search for the thread).

 

4. Those women who wear the niqaab believe they are carrying out a religious obligation. Now, the question is not if the niqaab is required or not. The question is what is religious freedom?

 

At least try to understand what the debate is about first.

 

Cicero,

 

Opinions opinions

[AYOUB]

Originally posted by Norfsky:

3. Women who wear the niqaab especially in the west CHOOSE to wear it. You haven't used any research to suggest otherwise. You seem to believe that repeating the same lines will win you arguments. In the previous thread someone posted articles from Niqaab wearing intelligent women which you brushed aside (don’t let me search for the thread).

 

4. Those women who wear the niqaab believe they are carrying out a religious obligation. Now, the question is not if the niqaab is required or not. The question is what is religious freedom?

Since it emerged about half the women who wear the Niqaab in France are native White European reverts to Islam, the government there wants to get it banned on "security grounds".

 

 

"Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always examine the ways in which people protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation.

 

That's why I'm committed to work with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill zakat. Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit, for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear.

 

We can't disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretense of liberalism."

~ President Obama's Cairo Speech

[LayZie G.]

C&H, there is not much I can do for someone who washes her hands off reading posts that pertain to her questions.

 

I simply told you, C&H, read my posts as that addresses all of your questions, with the exception of the personality questions, which I already said will not do because it will take the focus off the Burka.(maybe another thread, you can ask all the questions that your heart desires)

 

But I'm curious C&H, why did you refusue to read my post from yesterday(the one I posted before you), why is that sister? (its only on page 2)

 

Again, there is not much I can do about someone who wants to hear herself, in this case, read her writings when she refuses to engage the other person on the basis of what they are writing, after all, it is difficult as it is to debate in a forum(with people logging on different times). Don't make this more difficult than it already is, time is ticking, lets hear your position and your supporting arguments already?

 

 

As for North, typical North, whenever he finds himself cornered, he looks for an exit.

 

North, you can't possibly be serious about the so called expert that was posted, the one who did the piece on time speaking about women issues?

 

She is a convert who has an axe to grain, surely, she can not be considered an authority on the subject? Just as I dismissed her then, I will do it again, hope that clears things up for you.

 

As for simplifying the argument, I asked you to state your position and then back it up with qur'anic verses, open the kitaab, throw some verses at me, explain your understanding of said verses and I promise to share my own interpretation in return. (thats how you get a debate rolling, not to wait on the sidelines, hoping and praying that someone will safe you? C'mon north, I'm counting on you to deliver, if not, I will just have to wait for Sheikh Nur, atleast he is a man of his word. He will deliver, you just wait and see)

 

 

Canjeex, Canjeex, Canjeex, what is original about sharing a beautiful piece of a man's struggle to cope with the loss of his family over a Burka? If you can't grasp that much, atleast give the author credit where credit is due.

 

For your sake, I hope you read the article in its entirety, if not, I feel sorry for you, because you are missing a great deal.

 

In your view, anyone who happens to be a Muslim or in the case of this author, who was a practicing Muslim or who is still is a practicing Muslim (as I don't know as much as you don't know) is a sell out because he shared his family story and the road to radicalization in his country? Being a sell out is one compromises his integrity for personal gain but this author is already an established professor, what would he benefit by falsifying information about his his country's dirty laundry and his family's backward thinking?

 

He couldn't have been paid enough by the Globe and Mail, if anything, he is a contributing columnist and I don't think they could have paid him enough to air his family's radicalization process in the open for everyone to read, if that was the case, he would have gone to a magazine editor who would have paid him handsomely, therefore, it leaves one other scenario, "sell out" of his community? But his community is in turmoil because his country is taken by filthy terrorists who pay the authority in order to plan and carry attacks on innocent civilians, so why shouldn't the author share a very personal story of how one family went from being ordinary, god fearing Muslims to a family that refuses to allow their brother take a picture with their women folk in his camera or hug his women folk? (if his family has been tainted, along goes with Yemen)

 

How do you go from wearing a bikini one moment and a burka on the other and it isn't even your choice? Those are the answers the author attempts to answer by taking us a journey of self discovery.

 

But getting back to you Canjeex, what do you call people who only point fingers at those attempting to understand the state of affairs in their community? Those people who neither contribute nor profoundly impact the society they live in but somehow have something to say about people, instead of engaging ideas, they engage people? You tell me, what you call those people and only then can you yourself look in the mirror.

 

This is the last call to having a fruitful discussion and Canjeex its obvious you have nothing to contribute to this discussion, so let this be the last time I address but before I do, let me leave you with this:

 

I would like you to try a little experiment. Take few hours, go to your vibrant community(engage them), ask around the females why they wear the burka and come back and report it.

 

The exchange will probably be something along the following lines:

 

Canjeex: Habo, why do you wear the Burka?

 

Female: Maandhow, our "deen dictates it"

 

Canjeex: Explain? Are you saying what I think you are saying? Do you have a verse to back it up"?

 

 

Female: "No, but thats what our imam told us, its a long tradition, it comes from Saudia Arabia".

 

Canjeex: What does Saudia Arabia have anything to do with the burka, didnt you just say "Islam dictates it"?

 

 

Same female joined by others: "Waryaa, naga tag, wax yahow canka jeexan, aniga ma iwaaleysid, just know, the arabs told us to do something, we follow it to the T".

 

THE END

 

PS: About reading garbage, one news program for another, one junkie for another but at the end of the day, its someone's garbage.(you probably prefer reading/watching Arab propaganda and you call that fair and balance but a sean hannity viewer feels that hannity is the only one who is not only right but trustworthy) Don't knock something you haven't tried. Especially now that Bahrain is breading the next Bill O'reilly and Anne Coulter of Pakistan has already made her mark in the industry.

 

I'm telling you, fox is force in that part of the globe.

[Ibtisam]

Hello Lazy:

 

I wear a Burka from time to time and inshallah I intend to wear it full time one day. Instead of answering for these so called ignorant, uneducated (not your words, the other guy Cic words) and you implied. So please explain to me why:

 

1) My personal choice concerns other people or requires their approval.

 

2) If you want to know why I wear it; ask me or people who wear it in the west full time; Or do you assume they are so stupi*d or uneducated that they cannot answer for themselves?

 

3) What harm I am causing by wearing it?

 

4) What is the relevance of banning it?

 

Please remember that I am total against people who are forced to wear it by others.

 

Lastly IF a women wears it and she likes it, but may or may not have religious reasons behind it, do we still have the right to dictate that she cannot wear it, simply because she is not armed with religious quotes.

 

Thanks.

 

P.s. Lazy seems far, but I tent to agree with her on certain issues, however on this issue I feel like it is becoming like Johnny and the issue of GOD.

[LayZie G.]

Ibti, on page 2, I wrote the following:

LayZieG says: Burka is not obligatory, therefore its irrelevant and should not be forced in women's throat. In addition, Burka is a middle east phenomena and therefore it should be dismissed, unless the few women who wear it feel that they need to continue supporting the material as a way of life, an attire that identifies the woman within the confinement of her society, other than that, total ban should be called on the attire.

 

In the west, I think the garment should totally be banned but if few women decided to wear it and do so with the understanding that it is a personal decision, they can do it within the confinement of their home.

 

The reality is that when you go to an Arab country, as a woman, you have to cover up(gaal or no gaal), more or less, and in the west, when you are here, you have to take off the burka. Before we establish such ruling, I suggested that we should debate the relevance of the Burka, is it obligatory or is it voluntary? Once we reach an understanding, only then can we take a vote on the total ban of the garment.

 

2) So far, the case was made for those that only do it because they were ordered to do, but if you want to make the case for the other side, by all means, I'm all ears.

 

3) It is harmful to children, young females and it should only be worn with the understanding that it is not obligatory and then see how many women keep it on.

 

4) Thats what we are establishing, the relevance of the ban but first we must determine whether or not Islam dictates it and I'm still waiting for North, the leader of the no crowd to dazzle me.(unless you want to take over?)

 

PS:Ibti, first we must establish an argument, debate it then come to a conclusion, only then can we truly free individuals from the burden of this awful garment

 

Pss: Yes, we do agree on most issues and hopefully we can come to an understanding about the Burka.

[N.O.R.F]

LG, as usual you can't see the wood for the trees.

 

Is your whole argument for a ban because it's not, in your view, obligatory to wear the niqaab? Is that it? Nothing else?

 

1. Do a google search to find arguments for and against (I'm sure you're capable of doing that). Once you've done that, copy and past it here and use that as a basis for your argument (debate/discussion 101).

 

That will be one part of the argument.

 

The second and in my view the most important part of the argument is the FREEDOM TO PRACTICE RELIGION in the west. This is where you've hopped skipped and jumped. So I ask you, is the your stance relevant if someone BELIEVES wearing the niqaab is obligatory and is FREE to practice that belief?

[LayZie G.]

^north, read the post before last, establish yourself and only then will we proceed, until then, we are wasting time here.(nowhere to hide north)

 

PS:What does freedom of religion in the west have to do with the relevance of the Burka? You did not make a case for the Burka as a religious obligation, but when and if you do, only then can we take the next step, which is the freedom of religion and how it pertains to the garment. (Let us not jump courses, baby steps here North, its the only way we will have a fruitful discussion)

[Ibtisam]

Layzie; I will responds to all your points later inshallah. But just so we are clear; By Burka you mean:

 

 

and

 

What form of Hijab if any are you advocating for?? Or do I have start from the basic of what is the religious requirement of covering for a Muslimah.