A true Muslim: An Imam risks his life in order to lend a voice to Ban Burqa

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Geel_jire:

^ You have trouble with comprehension abti.

Sure abti, i'm slightly retarded.

 

Originally posted by Geel_jire:

That sentence that you based your entire rant on is not something I came up with ..

Not yours at all? , i may be colossally wrong about this , but i thought it was your own words under your futile attempt of depicting Layzie as a dense one,who got some basic Burka tottering from the blow of the Burka-friendly expert, namely Ibti,who had reasonably(here i waved for mullahically ) shown Lazie what? , yes, that " the burqa is not anti-islam"

 

Originally posted by Geel_jire:

.. if you scroll up a little more you will see this

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LayZie G.:

They are not threatenening to Kill the young Imam because he spoke ill of the quranic teachings or called the prophet names but

simply telling the truth that 'NIQAB HAS NO PLACE IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT'.(nada)= death

I failed to connect there.

 

Originally posted by Geel_jire:

put aside the fact that L.G still cannot tell the difference between the niqaab and the burga which further highlights the ignorance I was talking about she has been shown time and again that her claims i.e burqa being anti-islam are bogus. that is the meaning of your little red selection.

Suddenly , it's Layzie's claim

 

A terrorist is a terrorist , is a terrorist.

The poor Imam is threatened to life for not having told the truth, is he?

 

You'd be good for learning had you engaged Layzie on the subject matter , but meany personal attacks could only take you this far.

 

Ibti,

It's unfortunate that you've to resort to the " they're bashing Islam " rhetoric.

Sad that you coulden't challenge Layzie on a higher level.

[Oz]

Same ol Same ol Giberish!

[Ibtisam]

Johnny what possible higher discussion could there be about this?? :confused:

This guy is not a hero, he is just an individual with an opinion and I would hear him out, much like I’ve been hear Lazy out, but at the end of the day he is one of the following: 1) A reformist Muslim- as someone who is trying be a die hard salafi wahabi I have issues with them. but there are a few that I find interesting and like- I don’t know enough about him, but I would’ve liked to read what he had to say about the two things I mentioned above OR 2) Attention seeking, booty licking, money seeking media w*o**e. 3) He is a front for CIA, M15, Interpol or one agency or another and they use him to draw out extremist, we have a few in the UK.

 

As I said this is the first I heard of him, so can’t say one way or the other, and to be honest I don’t care really, the man is safe- he even has body guards, has food, money and some sort of influence, as far as I am concerned he has it good.

 

As for the Burqa, I already challenged Lazy and found out there is no higher level in that subject, just her feelings and emotions. I assume from her sliences in that thread that she took my advise and is out meeting some burqa wearing women. I know that lazy will one day grow out of her hate for the Burqa and find a new thing to hate on, simple because her hate and dislike is not based on anything solid. If she ever makes it to the UK I plan on dragging her around and making her party with the niqabis.

[Juxa]

i worry ibti would go grey before her time. all this discussion on burqa/hijab/jalabib is wearing thin.

 

let it be

[Ibtisam]

^^I'm hoping allah ino saadaqa iga diigo, instead of chatting cantrabaqsha on troll corner I'm try preach once in a while.

[LayZie G.]

Ibti, your whole view is centered on borrowing the few personal experiences you had with a handful of women and calling it 'personal choice for a woman to do as she pleases'.

 

Granted that these women do in fact decide on their own terms what to wear and where to wear them, neither proves that this garment has no place in our religion or our society as a whole, therefore, your argument that Burqa is a personal choice, is isolationist at best(few) and pure speculative at worse.

 

I respect the fact that you had come out and said; 'listen, we both know Islam does not prescribe this garment but atleast we have to respect the sisters that do wear it and give them the benefit of doubt because for them, the garment could mean much more than outer wear, for them, they can interpret as a sign of religious observance etc'.

 

My response to you is now as it was then (benefit of doubt does not fly with me, because I'm forever suspicious where a man's interest clashes with certain issues that concern women), for which that 'cheerleader in general' denied, which is that yes, Burqa/niqab is not prescribed by Islam, it never was prescribed by Islam and it will never be prescribed by Islam for as long as I'm a practicing Muslim, therefore, taking religion out of the equation, your argument is isolated to just mere personal choice, which you have yet to prove whether in fact large number of women do in fact make decisions about religion matters and wear burqa as a sign of religious observance is not proven, the burden of proof lies with you my sister, I said it then, I will say it now and I will repeat it tomorrow.(let us explore this new reasoning, let us define choices and personal ones at that and who is making what choice and when and under whose influence, none of which you have answered)

 

We know what Islam prescribed in terms of dressing modestly for both men and women and anything more than that is hyperbolic, one in which would never have occured if some men's insecurity did not force them to reinvent how a Muslim women ought to dress and under whose company, all of which is evidence that personal choice has little to do with this subject. (some men, specially the mouthpiece recognize that this polarized garment marks the beginning of an end to hold this religion and its women hostage under the pretense of "dont u dare question what Islam prescribes for as long as we are barking orders as to what is deemed appropriate for women to wear")

 

This thread highlights the length fundamentalists and their crooks would go to suppress the voices of fellow muslims, an Imam at that.

 

How did we go from discussing the burqa and expressing our views on the issues to declaring fake fatwa's and calling for the beheading of prominent muslim leaders?

 

Is this how we want the rest of the world to view Islam, an Islam whose followers can not bring themselves to articulate their point of view without wishing their opponents death(public or private)?

 

The more we allow few minority (radical fundamentalists who are deadly and threat to our way of living and most importantly, threat to Islam, the more we endanger our way of life) and other groups, mostly made up of son's of peasants, who have learned to read and write, just enough to be lethal and whose interpretation has to answer for previous wrong doings committed against their inferior class and who are now holding Islam hostage in order to address not only the wrongs committed against their lower class but now are looking to avenge against anything who they deem stand between what they believe they are 'owed' and what they think is theirs after their emancipated souls have been freed from serfdom of 'ignorance' etc, even if it means fellow Muslims have to perish.

 

We are nearing a moment when we have to decide, as women, do we take our future in our hands or do we continue to allow the few who wage Jihad on 'our behalfs" to continue their work?

 

Why is that women are never consulted about waging war against so called 'infidels'? Is it because these men know that no woman in her right mind would favour unjustified killing, especially in the name of religion that as far as I know does not favourably support one gender over the other nor does God favour one gender over the other, so who are these people to call the death of Imam and etc and decide that he is a heretic?

 

The reality my somali people is that the more we expose these culprits for who they are and what they are after, the more we are able to shame them and it starts here, in this thread against those that are calling 'for the death of an IMAM', an imam for Allah's sake.(a man of God, who puts the lives of others before him)

 

SHAME ON YOU CHEERLEADERS, SHAME ON YOU.

 

 

PS: JB, do not fault Ibti for she is the only one with some sense around here. She knows what she wants and when she wants it and in time, she will cross the aisle.(patience is all thats required)

 

I truly believe that if today Somali was peaceful, Ibti would be the one I would recommend to represent S-land at the negotiation table because in her S-LAND lives on for another day and S-land gets a voice, one that would not be afforded to anyone else. S-landers recognize that they will get good negotiator in Ibti, who knows how to negotiate with her Somali brethrens when the time calls her to step up and speak for her people, wherever they may reside.

[Raamsade]

I wrote the following on Jan 10/2010:

 

"Then her self-perception and self-worth is informed by superstition, ignorance and outright falsehood. We -- those that disagree with her -- must be allowed to show her the way to self-ennoblement without prejudice, hindrance or death threats. "

 

Back then, when I wrote the above, some of you may have dismissed it as just another one of my jaundiced views on all things Islam. Pay close attention to the bit in bold. I know from long experience that people who stand against Salafi/Wahhabi ideology -- whether it is against the Burka or antisemitism or murdering apostates etc -- often face intimidation, bullying, death threats and sometimes outright murder (i.e. Rashad Khalifa).

 

My views on this topic are still the same. The best way to fight fanaticism -- which is what this Burka ballyhoo is all about -- is for progressive forces to ally themselves with progressive Muslims who espouse equality of dignity of all humans, the right to dissent and adherence to the values of liberal democracies over Sharia absolutism.

 

The whole banning of Burka is wrongheaded and ultimately self-defeating. We already know the whole argument that Muslim women wear the Burka out of their own volition is baloney.

 

If you want to turn back the tide of fanaticism among Muslims, then create greater economic opportunities and incentives for Muslim integration and ruthlessly undermine the values/ideas behind the fanaticism craze.

 

France doesn't need Burka bans, it needs Voltaire. Cogent arguments are far more powerful than all the weapons and coercive measures in the world.

[Abaay Heylay]

Qashin and cantrabaqash :rolleyes:

[Ibtisam]

Lazy, you are just ranting about everything "Muslim". I can't take you seriously when you jump from Burqa to the Imam to death threats and fake fatwahs and culture and women issues and back to telling me that our life and religion is under threat. Wax baad is dhex walaaqi and it just comes across as a rant.

 

1) If you want to discuss Burqa and you have some new arguments or evidence; Go back to the old thread, I'm still waiting for answers, no need to start from ground zero again.

 

2) If you want to discuss why there is a rise in young angry Muslims, start a new thread, I have some interesting info on that

 

3) If you want to discuss why women are or less likely to be terrorist that is another huge issue on its own

 

4) If you want to tell us that only your way of Islam is correct and the rest of us are wrong, start a new thread

 

5)If you want to tell us about our biggest enemies and argue it is Muslims, again you might even say something interesting, so say something

As it stands now, today I would be more in danger and fear of the likes you and Johnny than Taliban and Bin Laden.

 

6) If you are simply highlighting and campaign for the treatment/reaction this Imam got, then stick to this thread. I'm sure you will find that most of us, don't want to kill or harm him.

 

All in all you sound very angry and by touching on so many issues which on their own are huge, you are biting more than you can chew and then consistently spitting it back out, only to take another huge bite and start a new thread. I find you as frustrating as the Fundamental Muslims, who learnt bit of everything and nothing in depth, every time you corner them on one issue they jump the fence. Now I'm sure if you put your angry and emotions aside you might be able to move on from this stagnant thought process which you have been stuck on for the last few years. I understand that you have so much passion and you have so much to say on so many things, but it always sounds like issues are tumbling out on top of each other and you never quite finish the though process of any one issue, by that I mean conveying it readers, I’m sure in your head you have all your conclusions.

 

In any case that is my sincere advise as a fellow Muslimah, as an activist my advise will be to learn how to have dialog and engage people. If you cannot make people listen to you, you cannot influence or change anything even if you have multibillion idea. Hate Bin Laden all you want, but the guy has built a self sustaining brand which crosses culture and religion sects , which now requires little input or influence from him, no one has seen him in 8yrs yet his shadow still lurks around, his idea living through people as diverse as Somali camel herders, Nigerian oil rich families, bare foot Palestinians, one eyes Afghans, and spoilt western Muslim generations who have never know hardship. Now I understand you want to reclaim those people he influenced to your way of thinking (the Americans and Europeans are trying to lock them all up, but this only helps his cause) but how can you influence people who won’t engage with you or listen to you, it certainly won’t work you bashing them on newspapers and TV, nor would it work if your argument has no coherent thread that people can trace and appeals to their logic. Sadly whatever appeal or potential your ideas would have or may have, if you cannot express them probably without offending me they will never reach their potential.

 

This is why I never argue with Johnny or Ramasaad or Cicero, because to them Muslims are never going far enough till they reach their stage. I fear you are going down their route, I see you calling people faithheads and so forth; this only implies that you are not serious about Muslim issues and it is worthless discussing anything with you, for a debate without sincerity is time wasted.

 

People have to get off their high horse and leave this condescending tone on the shelf, be willing to have your mind change or to accept a compromise but most of all ensure that how you express yourself does not contradict what you are claiming; be it Muslim or social aware liberal individual.

 

P.s. Aside from Johnny and Co, of the Muslims in this form notice I am the only one who bothers to engage with you anymore. Johnny and co just cheers you on because they can hide behind you. Tell me how do you expect to influence or educate people by isolating yourself and them. :confused:

[bint hamid]

Originally posted by LayZie G.:

Ibti, do you deny that this thread is informative?

...

im not ibti but i deny it.. the title is interesting but the inside is not

[LayZie G.]

Raamsade, this issue is not as black and white as you make it out to be. For a Muslim to align him/herself with the so called 'progressive forces' is just another ammunition for the fundamentalists to use to lure more people their way and corrupt the minds of the young even more than they have in years, while planting more hate against fellow Muslims on their hearts. (progressive forces, I presume to mean non-muslims actors and I can not see the benefit of going outside for help when we can clean house ourselves, right here, right now. Ofcourse here=not literally SOL or any cyber platform)

 

My belief has been and will be for sometime to come, you want to change minds, you speak directly to the silent majority, and no, not the sideshow squad made up mostly of men but the silent, Muslim women majority.

 

Fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists alike are all competing for the voices of these women and its all about who can get to them first because I still believe there is hope that we can start with few but asking the tough questions is just as effective. In this case, the possibilities are endless raamsade.

 

As for the Burka argument, it is not as clear to some as it is to others, which is why I'm looking to push this issue for as long as it takes.

 

...and Ibti dear, first it was 'bashing', now its 'ranting', make up your mind, will ya?

 

I recall you coming up quickly and in your opening statements, you advised the sideshow squad to not get excited because, get this, you said, "leave JOHNNY AND LAZY to do their bashing", perhaps, a weak attempt on your part to suggests that LayZie was bashing Islam of all things? fundamentalists, hell yes, Burka, yes, sideshow freaks, hell yes, but Islam?

 

Instead of calling you out on your error, I gave it a pass because truly I thought you were above it all but you have turned your rhetoric up another notch today with the 'ranting this and ranting that'.

 

Which is, ranting or bashing or addressing one grievance at a time? Make up your mind will ya

 

Long ago, I took on the mission to state my positions on most of the issues highlighted above as clearly as reciting the english alphabet. For heaven's sake, you can pull a homeless man off the street and allow him to hear me once and turn to him a moment later and ask him, where does lazy stand on the burka issue? Are her views against fundamentalist justified taking into a factor that increased sentiment among Muslim men is growing ? and finally, do you believe Lazy advocates for the right for people to voice their opinion? and he will recite my positions with a smile, all in less than a minute.

 

 

Now, I don't know what to make of this new you, maybe you are overworked and in need of vacation but you have retreated back and instead calling it quits, you have taken up the defense mode.

 

You no longer formulate an argument. You have mastered at the art of attacking others positions without effectively defending your reason for opposing certain views and when you are challenged, you retreat back.

 

This is not like you at all, so for your sake, I hope we can have the old Ibti back soon after a much deserved vacation but besides, in all seriousness, don't be defensive.

 

 

I only went off on you lastnight because you have purposely dismissed the Imam at the first opportunity you had, when you called attention to his possibility of being 'just another western agent', suggesting that he may be masquerading as an Imam.

 

Now, how do you reconcile your admission of not knowing much about the Imam but directly calling his credibility to question?

 

 

Not like you at all Ibti. Bring back the old Ibti and imagine, I was willing to let go of your earlier errors, not one but two, but you just couldn't let it go. Best offense is not always a good defense. Give up this defensive play and start putting points on the scoreboard.

 

 

PS: Bint Hamid, care to elaborate? What did you not find useful inside? Yes, he is an Imam, yes, his life is threatened by fellow Muslims but no, the details doesn't interest you because.....? It does not make you question why some groups always resort to violence in the name of......? You are not the least bit troubled by this news? You have some soul searching to do ya bint

[Ibtisam]

^^Read it again Lazy, I did not call his credibility into account; I said he is one of the three, and guess what I looked around and did some searching, guess what?? He is the first option for sure;

This guy is not a hero, he is just an individual with an opinion and I would hear him out, much like I’ve been hear Lazy out, but at the end of the day he is one of the following: 1) A reformist Muslim- as someone who is trying be a die hard salafi wahabi I have issues with them. but there are a few that I find interesting and like- I don’t know enough about him, but I would’ve liked to read what he had to say about the two things I mentioned above OR 2) Attention seeking, booty licking, money seeking media w*o**e. 3) He is a front for CIA, M15, Interpol or one agency or another and they use him to draw out extremist, we have a few in the UK.

He is just a man with a view lazy. You've had the same view as him for ages, it does not make you or him a hero or anymore or a true Muslim than me or you.

 

 

Fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists alike are all competing

for the voices of these women

and its all about who can get to them first because I still believe there is hope that we can start with few but asking the tough questions is just as effective. In this case, the possibilities are endless raamsade.

Oh yes because of course, someone needs to get to them and tell them which way to walk, after all they can't see!

 

Scoreboard?; I don't keep one, you need to let that go, discussion is only useful for so long as their is a postive exchange. You just want to stand on the side and beat the same beat. So lord knows I tried, but I'm giving up on you.

 

SalamAlikum Lazy and I hope you learn to read before ranting.

[Khayr]

Layzie,

 

Do you dream of the burqa at night?

 

Are you looking for a burqa?

 

Here is a suggestion,

 

We can order one for you from Afghanistan and we can all pitch in, as a gift for you Layzie G.

 

Would anyone else like to pitch in for the Layzie G. Burqa fund? A gift for our fellow nomad.